Goodbye, Young Man

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My family did that plenty in my youth, and all it convinced me of is the absurdity of church and prayer. The morals I learned were pretty solid, the justifications for them were rubbish.

Another thing I learned from all the awful marriages in my rather religious extended family was that being forced to pick a spouse based upon their public acknowledgment of some theological positions is a pretty iffy matchmaking formula.
 
There are a lot of missing fathers. Many different ways they are not there and it would take many more threads in addition to this one to describe them all so I won’t go there. But I think the key is that fathers are no longer respected in any area of our culture outside of traditional religions. That cultural disrespect shows up in a lot of different ways, but they are adding up to the same dismal outcome: fewer fathers in the home.

When young men see how little respect fathers get from the culture at large, it is not very conducive toward their own desire to be fathers. So they don’t prepare themselves. That lack of preparation shows up in different ways; the most prominent of course is the disparate and well publicized enrollment numbers for our colleges and universities. On the back end of their lives, it shows up in the number of older men who are essentially broke and have little hope of a better life.

Any hope of coming back from this will take time, at least a generation or two. But short of restoring society-wide respect for fathers on multiple fronts, we’re not coming back. Not just mouthing the words, but actually making the changes that need to be made to support fathers and make them feel valued.
 
I cannot speak for every woman regardless if they are Catholic or not. Though I seriously doubt those who are in full communion with The Catholic Church believe in abortion. Including those of us women who are joining The Catholic Church.
 
What is irritating is so much is done to specifically help women when it isn’t even a question that men suffer far more than women in our culture.
 
Why would a man have to get married before he is 30? His biological clock is not ticking, and it would make more sense for him to spend a decade finishing his education, getting established in a good job or career, and saving up some money to put a down payment on a house for his future wife and family.
 
Another thing I learned from all the awful marriages in my rather religious extended family
I’m sorry that happened in your family. Strangely, perhaps, the vast majority of marriages in my (religious, mostly Catholic) extended family and my spouse’s (religious, mostly Protestant with a couple of Catholics) extended family seem to have rolled along pretty well and the people are still married decades later, or were until they passed away. There were a handful of exceptions, but even some of the folks who split up ended up getting back together.

I don’t think anybody was being “forced to pick a spouse based upon their public acknowledgment of some theological positions though”. A few people were forced to pick a spouse based on the fact that they got her pregnant, but as those couple of marriages lasted for 50 years, seems to have worked out okay.
 
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Why would a man have to get married before he is 30? His biological clock is not ticking, and it would make more sense for him to spend a decade finishing his education, getting established in a good job or career, and saving up some money to put a down payment on a house for his future wife and family.
There’s good sense to what you are saying. My own father was 30 when he and my mother married. She was 20. I remember him telling me he had saved up $5,000 before marriage, which I suppose would be like $50,000 or more now. His livelihood was well established, and he was a pretty mature fellow. My mother was, of course, at or near the peak of her fertility and capability of bearing and raising a child.

On the other hand, I was 24 when my wife and I married. She was 22. We didn’t have anything and my job wasn’t all that good at the time. But we did have a lot of physical strength and stamina and plowed through the early years by main force. I remember one weekend when we had exactly $10 with which to buy food for ourselves and one child for the next week.

We did it, and were pretty proud of ourselves until we got to the checkout counter. Just ahead of us was a cowboy who had an enormous amount of food and spent less than we did. Of course, his purchase consisted of dried beans, rice, flour, and a chunk of salt pork. I had no idea where he found that salt pork. I had never seen it in the meat counter before. Anyway, that’s all of his purchase that I remember. Maybe the rancher also provided some beef for him, and maybe he had a garden too and maybe even canned vegetables himself or perhaps his wife or mother did. I don’t know. Undoubtedly he had a yeast “starter” at home.

We couldn’t afford a crib for our first child, so we put her in a dresser drawer lined with bath towels (wedding gifts). Later, when she was grown, she asked for that dresser, and we gave it to her. I bought it at an estate sale for maybe $5 and refinished it myself.

So I don’t know. There are probably a couple of ways of looking at such things.
 
Hey, if a couple are responsible enough to do what you did, I say more power to them.
The men I knew in my early 20s who were in a rush to get married had not considered any of this, and were not the type who had the skills to refinish a dresser, figure out a tight food budget, etc.

I would imagine that men who had gotten some skills and life experience in their teens and early 20s (for example, through military service, or through working for a few years on a farm or in construction, or through developing some serious hunting and fishing skills, etc.) might be up to the task. However, I met very few of those, and instead met a lot of guys who were used to having their parents take care of them and were now looking for a wife to basically “take care of them” but with benefits. One of them did poorly in college, dropped out and then expected me to marry him (I had done relatively well in my first year of the same major). He was in a big hurry to start a family and planned to go back to his job managing some jeans shop at a mall. He married somebody else and they lived in a trailer and had a bunch of kids and then got divorced. I have never regretted saying no.
 
It’s not a matter of whether a man should be married before 30 or not, but a matter of whether this chunk of ‘forgotten’ men will ever marry at all. Many, if not most, of them never will. So what is the drive for them to succeed at anything? Get a better job so they can have a nicer couch to sit on and play video games on a nicer computer, still alone? Get in shape so they can have a six-pack to go with their nicer couch? What is the benefit to them?

Even religion won’t solve most of these issues. It just gives a reason for the suffering and (hopefully) prevents the suicide. It gives no drive for material success.

30 is an arbitrary age. If a man is at 30 and unprepared for marriage it is likely he will remain unorepared for marriage through his 30s and into his 40s and suddenly he is 50 and a wife and kids is out of the question. For the young man like me, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60… We’re as far from marriage at any of those points as any other point.

The guy you rejected (for better or worse) is one of those men who has effectively been priced out. His dilemma is slightly different in shape, but the same species.
 
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I have never regretted saying no.
I think I had most of the “obligatory girlfriends” in my younger days. The rich girlfriend. The brilliant girlfriend. The New Orleans French Southern Belle. The Texas cowgirl. The Yankee hard driving girlfriend. The crafty hillbilly girlfriend. I could have married any one of them.

Looking back, it almost seems a miracle that I didn’t make some really bad decision. And that was back before young women thought abortion was okay.

Ultimately, I married a native of Indiana who made fun of my Ozark accent at first and didn’t like me a bit when we first met. And I am so thankful, not about the accent thing, but because she is who she is.
 
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LOL, yeah my husband and I did not get along the first couple times we met either. I thought he was a sanctimonious, pompous, work-obsessed bore and he thought I was mercurial, moody and weird. I think we have both “improved” a lot in 30+ years.
 
So what is the drive for them to succeed at anything?
Don’t act like all hope is lost for young men or older men who aren’t married. There will always be possibilities as long as you don’t give up hope.

I think that cultural changes and technological advances have been occurring so rapidly in the last 75 years that 2-3 generations were left unprepared by their parents for the world they were going to have to live in. If these generational gaps have compounded their consequences, that would explain why the individuals in first world societies are finding themselves struggling to accomplish basic goals like social graces, marriage, a purposeful feeling, good physical health, etc…, real basic stuff.

If young men realize that they can be part of the solution to the problem then it’s there that they can find purpose, and it will be from there that they will find everything else that they feel they have been left out of.
 
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I think there is too much attention being made to the marriage aspect of this. Marriage is just one (albeit large) piece of this puzzle.

There is a group of young men who are failing at everything. Marriage being an impossibility is a symptom of the disease. While I have significant problems with the average young woman, the fact that they are rightly avoiding marriage with this group is an example of wisdom.

The real problem here is that these men are totally powerless to change anything. Their only outlet for self-expression is self-destruction of their own person and their own society. Purpose? What purpose can they have in this society? For the fat dork who works at the drive-thru of your local fast-food joint, or the severely socially awkward geek sitting in his mom’s basement, posting on 4chan, exactly where do they go, and what can they expect at the end of this journey?

I would tell them to ‘go monk’ and totally reject society and the world and to live an ascetic lifestyle of silence and wait for the next world. But that doesn’t save society, it just saves their souls. And my solution is obviously as unrealistic as the ‘just try harder’ solution. Only a rare few can willingly accept their lot as the sacrificial lambs of the secular West. The rest see the darkness and embrace it, and lose not only their mortal life, but their eternal souls.
 
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That’s a very good point. No one wants to admit it, but there are a considerable percentage of men who realistically have no hope of finding wives who would respect them enough to stay loyal to them and founding families they could fight for. Through various avenues, that has mostly been taken away from them. So they won’t make the effort to prepare themselves in the first place. Why bother when they can see for themselves they will never be respected and honored for it?

Getting the best from men requires that they serve a higher purpose outside of themselves and that they are best sharpened by other men. Once the higher purpose was God followed by family and country. There is considerably less of that than there used to be. No God, no family … and no country. Not to mention the sharpening by other men isn’t what it used to be either.
 
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It is a cascading effect. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer, and I am not talking about finances.

Ruby Payne, in her widely popular work, “A Framework for Understanding Poverty” names 9 kinds of resources:

Financial
Emotional
Mental/cognitive
Spiritual (future story)
Physical
Support systems
Relationships/role models
Knowledge of hidden rules at school and work
Language/formal register

Now consider Emotional + Support systems + Relationships/role models.

When somebody starts off poor in life in these areas is likely to become even more poor in life in these areas in the future. Habits form. Toxic relationships are built and solidify. The ability to form deeper relationship that involve sacrifice are lost to years of practicing toxic relationships. The slope to destitution & doom becomes steeper over time, so that the person starts to fall even if not walking down the road on their own.
 
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About your example of the guy working at a fastfood joint. I come from a developing country where most people are poor. These poor people still find someone, either shack up or get married, but mostly shack up, raise a kid or so, maybe break up or stay together. Financial status is a factor, but the thing is poor people still get to be in relationships. Most of these poor people stay in blue collar jobs all their life, be it a bagger at the grocery, a maid, a busboy.
 
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It’s not just the financial status. Bad boy drug dealer loser with no job still has three baby-mamas. It’s the socially awkward, overweight, too nice for his own good, dork.

Anyway, everyone knows Western women have absurdly high standards compared to non-Western women.
 
Go to Google, copy and past the words I wrote, voila, you’ll have a source. I’m not writing an academic paper here. If you have reason to doubt one of those numbers, specify the number and I’ll do my best to find a source.
I can go to Google and find photos of Bigfoot.

When in a discussion, it is important to be able to cite your sources. One cannot simply throw around statistics, as 67% of them are made up on the spot. The method of the survey has a great impact on how we read the results.
 
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