Gospels don't say Jesus was crucified, scholar claims

[Garyjohn2]

Is there a specific Greek term from the first century for “cross” as we define it?

Yeah, if an anciet greek writer wanted to specifically reference a cross, what word would he use?

If there is such a word, is it used anywhere in the NT?

 

[Ahimsa]

Yeah, if an anciet greek writer wanted to specifically reference a cross, what word would he use?

If there is such a word, is it used anywhere in the NT?

The author address this here below. He seems to be saying that the word “stauros”, before Christ, referred to a wooden stake, not a T-shaped cross. Only after Christ, did people begin to use “stauros” to mean “T-shaped cross” in addition to “stake”, but that’s because people thought that that was the original meaning of stauros, which, of course, it isn’t.

He was working on a dissertation at the University of Gothenburg in Sweden when he noticed a problem with a major book about the history of crucifixion before Jesus.

What was normally thought to be the first description of a crucifixion - by the ancient Greek historian Herodotus - wasn’t a crucifixion at all, but the suspension of a corpse, Samuelsson found by reading the original Greek.

The next example in the book about crucifixion wasn’t a crucifixion either, but the impaling of a hand.

Samuelsson’s doctoral advisor thought his student might be on to something.

“He recommended I scan all the texts, from Homer up to the first century - 900 years of crucifixion texts,” Samuelsson recalled, calling it “a huge amount of work.”

But, he says, “I love ancient texts. They just consume me.” So he started reading.

He found very little evidence of crucifixion as a method of execution, though he did find corpses being suspended, people being hanged from trees, and more gruesome methods of execution such as impaling people by the belly or rectum.

The same Greek word was used to refer to all the different practices, he found.

That’s what led him to doubt that the Gospels specify that Jesus was crucified.

At the time they were written, “there is no word in Greek, Latin, Aramaic or Hebrew that means crucifixion in the sense that we think of it,” he says.

It’s only after the death of Jesus - and because of the death of Jesus - that the Greek word “stauroun” comes specifically to mean executing a person on the cross, he argues.

He admits, of course, that the most likely reason early Christians though Jesus was crucified [on a cross] is that, in fact, he was.

 

[Garyjohn2]

The author address this here below. He seems to be saying that the word “stauros”, before Christ, referred to a wooden stake, not a T-shaped cross. Only after Christ, did people begin to use “stauros” to mean “T-shaped cross” in addition to “stake”, but that’s because people thought that that was the original meaning of stauros, which, of course, it isn’t.

No, I think you are misunderstanding my question. I know stauros meant “suspension” and later came to mean “cross.”

However, was there a greek word that meant “cross” that the ancient writers could have used instead, if they wanted to be more specific? Or was “stauros” the only word available to them to describe this type of thing?

In english we are so sploiled to have so many words to mean similar things. He could be “hung from a cross” “nailed to a tree” “fastened to a stake” “pierced onto a beam”…and they could all mean “stauros” and could all mean “crucifixion”

I’m wondering, did the ancient greeks have these choices?

 

[scipio337]

Which epistles did you have in mind?

1 Corinthians 1:18 uses the same Greek word the Gospels use for “cross”, “stauros”.

Yet Jerome used “crucis” in the Vulgate:

verbum enim crucis pereuntibus quidem stultitia est his autem qui salvi fiunt id est nobis virtus Dei est

 

[scipio337]

Diodorus Siculus, Plutarch and Lucian use “σταυρός” as “cross”.

perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3D%2396298&redirect=true

It’s been a standard lexicograph for Koine. Irenaeus states such in Against Heresies. Even the Epistle of Barnabas states it.

It was a cross.

 

[Ahimsa]

Or was “stauros” the only word available to them to describe this type of thing?

“Xylon” (“wood”; “tree”) is another possibility. I think Acts 5:30 has “xylon”.

 

[estesbob]

This is standard Jehova Witness doctrine

jwfacts.com/watchtower/cross-or-stake.php

 

[Ahimsa]

Yet Jerome used “crucis” in the Vulgate:

verbum enim crucis pereuntibus quidem stultitia est his autem qui salvi fiunt id est nobis virtus Dei est

“Crux” could also be used for “stake” as well as “cross”.

 

[Ahimsa]

This is standard Jehova Witness doctrine

jwfacts.com/watchtower/cross-or-stake.php

Whether it’s JW doctrine or not, the Gospels themselves use “stauros”, which is not originally nor exclusively associated with a T-shaped cross.

 

[soren1]

Ahimsa:
Samuelsson is right about one and only one thing: the dictionary definition of the Greek verb *staurao *and the noun stauros do not exclusively mean “to crucify” and “cross.” Literally, they mean “to place upright” and “an upright post.” His error, of course, is that usage, not etymology, is what gives a word its meaning, and these terms were used in the ancient Hellenic word to signify crucifixion, even if they derive from a different terminology. The Jehovah’s Witnesses, alas, make the same mistake.

 

[estesbob]

Whether it’s JW doctrine or not, the Gospels themselves use “stauros”, which is not originally nor exclusively associated with a T-shaped cross.

The argument is based on the definition of Stauros in Classical Greek. However Stauros has a different meaning in Classical ggreek than it does in Koine Greek-the language the new Testament was written in… This whole myth is thoroghly debunked here:

jwfacts.com/watchtower/cross-or-stake.php

 

[scipio337]

“Crux” could also be used for “stake” as well as “cross”.

Says who? I’ve had 6 semesters of Latin, and translated 3 books of The Aeneid into English as my minor thesis. I can’t think of any case, region, time or usage when it has meant anything but “cross”.

 

[Ahimsa]

His error, of course, is that usage, not etymology, is what gives a word its meaning, and these terms were used in the ancient Hellenic word to signify crucifixion, even if they derive from a different terminology.

His point, though, is that before Christ, stauros overwhelmingly signified stake, rather than cross. Given that, his argument that the Gospels do not explicitly argue for a “cross-fixion” is cogent.

 

[SonCatcher]

Since there was no more precise word in Greek, all he has done is prove that the writers used the best word available.

Essentially, this is the ecclesial equivalent to a government-funded study to prove that smoking causes health problems.

 

[Contarini]

I wish I could read ancient greek.

Does this mean when the crowds were shouting at Pilate, they were saying “Hang him from a nondescript torture device! Hang him from a nondescript torture device!”

No, they weren’t shouting in English at all!

The point is that the word is vaguer than the English word.

Again, I just don’t see why this matters. Is it because of the magical power of the sign of the Cross in traditional Christianity? (Note: I am inclined to believe in this magical power myself and am not using the word pejoratively–but I think it’s the honest word to use.) Demons might still fear the sign of the Cross even if the shape of the “nondescript torture device” was something different. After all, we and they know what we mean, right?

And Ahimsa, believe it or not, the “stake” pun was unintentional I noticed it after writing and before posting (actually I think I noticed it while editing the post.

Edwin

 

[Ahimsa]

Says who? I’ve had 6 semesters of Latin, and translated 3 books of The Aeneid into English as my minor thesis. I can’t think of any case, region, time or usage when it has meant anything but “cross”.

In the Vulgate crux is applied widely to any gibbet or gallows on which malefactors were hung. (See OED, “cross”). A gibbet or gallows is not exactly a “stake”, but a gibbet usually involves a stake and a projecting arm.

 

[scipio337]

His point, though, is that before Christ, stauros overwhelmingly signified stake, rather than cross. Given that, his argument that the Gospels do not explicitly argue for a “cross-fixion” is cogent.

To which the counter point is, as I’ve pointed out, contemporaries of the Gospels, Diodorus Siculus, Plutarch and Lucian use “σταυρός” as “cross”.

This is according to the “gold standard” of Greek lexicons, the Lidell-Scott.

perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3D%2396298&redirect=true

There are also contemporaries and near contemporaries Irenaeus, Justin Martyr, Tertullian, and the Epistle of Barnabus stating explicity such.

 

[Ahimsa]

To which the counter point is, as I’ve pointed out, contemporaries of the Gospels, Diodorus Siculus, Plutarch and Lucian use “σταυρός” as “cross”.

This is according to the “gold standard” of Greek lexicons, the Lidell-Scott.

perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3D%2396298&redirect=true

There are also contemporaries and near contemporaries Irenaeus, Justin Martyr, Tertullian, and the Epistle of Barnabus stating explicity such.

Yeah, the author recognizes that “stauros” may also mean “cross”, but the bulk of the cases before Christ mean “stake”. Plus, the author himself believes Christ died on a cross, just that the Gospels are not explicit about a cross-fixion.

 

[scipio337]

In the Vulgate crux is applied…

Please point out the instances it uses it as such, and which translators translate it as such in those cases.

You’re whistling in the dark here.

 

[scipio337]

Yeah, the author recognizes that “stauros” may also mean “cross”, but the bulk of the cases before Christ mean “stake”. Plus, the author himself believes Christ died on a cross, just that the Gospels are not explicit about a cross-fixion.

And in lexiconography, when dealing with ancient languages, the most deciding factors are contemporary usage, and context.

Given the amount of contemporaries who explicitly describe the cross, with cross bar, this supposition is not based in any scholarly or logical deduction.