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Thomas1981
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A good statement from Archbishop Chaput and others here on this very point:
thepublicdiscourse.com/2015/04/14748/
thepublicdiscourse.com/2015/04/14748/
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EmperorNapoleon
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rossum
Guest
So as not to have to make an unnecessary journey to the next town before finding out that the cake shop there won’t cater to your wedding. Does the shop offer cakes over the internet? How would that work? If the shop wishes to limit the people it wishes to serve, then better to let potential customers know in advance. Otherwise they could be sued for the cost of a wasted journey.
But the law is not. Read the various RFRA laws. They are not specific. The original Federal RFRA law arose from the Native American use of peyote in religious rituals. IIRC Sikhs have used RFRA laws to be allowed to carry a kirpan (small knife) in situations where knives are not normally allowed. The law is a general law, covering many different religions and many different situations.
It is a requirement for truth in advertising. The shop is not really advertising its services to everyone, but only to some people. It needs to make that clear in its advertising. A Kosher deli, advertising as a Kosher deli is making it clear that you will not be served a ham sandwich there. Do you think that Christians should lie – even by omission – in their advertising?
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GaryTaylor
Guest
Any group within a group can easily become exclusive and further discriminate. No different for example than with Isis.
Anyway I watched the 3-point NCAA shoot out last night at Indiana. Astonishing, talk about diverse, a girl from Canada beat all the guys, she hit 10 in a row to start.
Anyway I watched the 3-point NCAA shoot out last night at Indiana. Astonishing, talk about diverse, a girl from Canada beat all the guys, she hit 10 in a row to start.
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rossum
Guest
It is not quite as simple as that. There are obvious restrictions on freedom of religion. For example, if someone wants to offer a live human heart to one of the Aztec gods they are rightly forbidden by law from doing so. As with all freedoms, there are limits. The laws and courts are there to referee disputes between limits on different freedoms.
Attitudes to gays, and to same sex marriage, are changing. That means that some of the boundaries between different freedoms are moving under political influence. When voters change, politicians change with them.
Once the change has been made, then the boundaries between freedoms will settle down again in their new position. The world has adapted to allowing divorce; in time it will adapt to same sex marriage as well.
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sallybutler
Guest
What part of ‘follow the money’ do people not get. The governor will do what the big corporations want. Period. Amen.
It has nothing to do with religious beliefs or votes. If big business says jump, no one asks how high, they just jump.
It has nothing to do with religious beliefs or votes. If big business says jump, no one asks how high, they just jump.
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GaryTaylor
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Things change quick, you have to think world wide too. Its a little bigger than state and country, the world is very connected now too. So whatever we think of, we will have to be inclusive of all those religious people around the world. I can see it now, it could be such a beautiful thing when we think of all people as one people. Unfortunately we have a lot of dissenters too.
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Thomas1981
Guest
Yes, I understand that there are limitations. But what people don’t seem to understand is that this law is NOT ABOUT the open-ended guarantee of religious freedom under any circumstances. It simply establishes that religious freedom is a very important principal of the United States as enshrined in our Constitution, that’s why it was listed in the first amendment. To burden religious expression you need a compelling interest to do so, and this law establishes that this is up to the courts to determine. Also, the idea that “the world has changed” does not change the protections for minorities established in the Constitution, and by minorities here I mean people of traditional faiths that live it fully in accordance with doctrine. Just because Obama and a majority of Americans have “evolved” means nothing. The Constitution cannot be amended by a mere 50.1% of Americans, it is designed to protect against the tyranny of the majority. Right now that majority is supportive of LGBT causes over religious people.
The whole point of the Constitution is that it does not change simply because “the times they are a changing’” and it protects people who “don’t want to change” as well. This RFRA is not trying to overturn the social consensus on same-sex marriage, it is simply trying to all people to be “free to disagree”…you know, tolerance and all that stuff that liberals cared about before they had the power to enforce their own vision? Yeah, now tolerance is passe too.
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Thomas1981
Guest
Yes, the Republican Party sold its soul for 30 pieces of silver long ago, they are as craven as any.
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Darryl1958
Guest
That is your opinion, which you are entitled to.
What people are not getting are any facts that support that cynical opinion.
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JimG
Guest
“In recent days we have heard claims that a belief central to Judaism, Christianity, and Islam—that we are created male and female, and that marriage unites these two basic expressions of humanity in a unique covenant—amounts to a form of bigotry.
Such arguments only increase public confusion on a vitally important issue. When basic moral convictions and historic religious wisdom rooted in experience are deemed “discrimination,” our ability to achieve civic harmony, or even to reason clearly, is impossible.”
Charles J. Chaput, O.F.M. Cap
Roman Catholic Archbishop of Philadelphia
Robert P. George
McCormick Professor of Jurisprudence
Princeton University
William E. Lori
Roman Catholic Archbishop of Baltimore
Albert Mohler, Jr., President
The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary
Russell Moore, President
Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission
Southern Baptist Convention
thepublicdiscourse.com/2015/04/14748/
Such arguments only increase public confusion on a vitally important issue. When basic moral convictions and historic religious wisdom rooted in experience are deemed “discrimination,” our ability to achieve civic harmony, or even to reason clearly, is impossible.”
Charles J. Chaput, O.F.M. Cap
Roman Catholic Archbishop of Philadelphia
Robert P. George
McCormick Professor of Jurisprudence
Princeton University
William E. Lori
Roman Catholic Archbishop of Baltimore
Albert Mohler, Jr., President
The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary
Russell Moore, President
Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission
Southern Baptist Convention
thepublicdiscourse.com/2015/04/14748/
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GaryTaylor
Guest
I hear you, odd Obama spin and totally incorrect and a immature view which we all have seen in America, in fact lived through it.
The false charge and insinuation…
That said if you read the 93 law by Clinton and listen to his speech all we see is more fairy tales. Really common for this O-team as Josh was in line with the same thinking. No different than Obama hope and the new world to come. Unless world war is the new hope no-one knows what in the world Obama is ever talking about.
The 93 speech. …
youtu.be/4YtyUXnBhXU
“In honor to affirm the role religion has played in the history of the country” [history didn’t change]
“To better protect all peoples of Faith which is far more consistent with the founders of this nation” [again history and the original understanding of persecuted faith]
“Should protect and serve this fundamental liberty”
“The free exercise of Religion is called the First Freedom”
“It sparked the full range of the Bill of Rights”
“Our founders cared a lot about Religion”
“The reason is our founders well understood that government and religion could be perverted if protection wasn’t provided”
“They knew there needed to be space between government and religion”
“Otherwise government might usurp Religion”
“We would not be who we are today without the 1st Amendment”
Religion was revived past 60-70 with St John Paul II and the 60s were in truth no different than todays movement. Actually the same charge can be made with more accuracy with the Summer of Love -Obama hope-67, actually todays progressive movement is a carbon copy of the 60s. We thought we were getting back to business.
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_Abyssinia
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Denver’s Azucar Bakery wins right to refuse to make anti-gay cakes
thedenverchannel.com/news/local-news/denvers-azucar-bakery-wins-right-to-refuse-to-make-anti-gay-cake
thedenverchannel.com/news/local-news/denvers-azucar-bakery-wins-right-to-refuse-to-make-anti-gay-cake
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GaryTaylor
Guest
Apparently Obama commanded his legion to attack the Church.
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josie_L
Guest
Yah, that was me!!Any group within a group can easily become exclusive and further discriminate. No different for example than with Isis.
Anyway I watched the 3-point NCAA shoot out last night at Indiana. Astonishing, talk about diverse, a girl from Canada beat all the guys, she hit 10 in a row to start.
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estesbob
Guest
The owners are devout Catholics, by the way. It is unfortunate that they got drug into this dispute. Having dealt extensively with another Colorado public commission I can tell you that they are largely above the rule of law and are known for issuing totally subjective and inconsistent decisions .
I grew up during the civil rights movement. I can recall traveling through the south and seeing the segregated restrooms and separate water fountains . I can remember armed troops being used to allow African-Americans to go to schools and people being beat and having dogs loosed on them for demanding their civil rights. Now some 60 years later we are fighting over baking cakes. It is a sad commentary on our culture
meltzerboy
New member
Today we fight more over theoretical principles of law, morality, and equity than practical social injustices and restrictions of liberty.
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estesbob
Guest
I think this silly cake fights trivialize the struggles African Americans went through.
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GaryTaylor
Guest
I know, I remember the 1-95 corridor being under construction all through the deep south especially in SC and Georgia. It use to detour into the fruit and peanut fields and rows of one room shacks. No-one from the north traveled through there at night. The police would have you in kangaroo court on the road side taking pay offs. They always wanted to know how much cash you had on you, thats what your fine was.
Civil War was still in full effect and they were still mad about it too.Still moving forward, still calling everyone to come along.
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baliano
Guest
To those politicians with somewhat jelly-like spines; Choke, Choke. We are the early stages of our testing, I hope most of us do better than the politicians are doing.
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