Government run by the (secular) people?

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Zynxensar

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So, from a post I read, apparently Catholics believe that government work should be assigned to the people and not the Church (can someone confirm this for me?)?Why though? There were God appointed Kings in Ancient Israel like David and Solomon. Though I have to say most of the Kings in Judah/Israel were rather questionable in their devotion to God…
 
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Zynxensar said:
There were God appointed Kings in Ancient Israel like David and Solomon.
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…and so many of the Kings of Europe, so it was said. I don’t think people are assigned by God, they are expected to act as God would intend. Now why the greatness and lows of human history assigns such leaders is another issue.
 
the church does not run the government in a democracy, or a republic like you guys have
 
The Catholic Ideal is symphony of Church and State wherein in the Church informs the morality of the state and citizenry and the state defends the Church and upholds her teachings. Not to mention that the Pope is a temporal king as well as head of the Bishops. Catholicism was explicitly pro-monarchy until recent times and honestly I think this age of republics has produced an inferior social order.
 
Inquisitor_rex said:
The Catholic Ideal is symphony of Church and State wherein in the Church informs the morality of the state and citizenry and the state defends the Church and upholds her teachings. Not to mention that the Pope is a temporal king as well as head of the Bishops. Catholicism was explicitly pro-monarchy until recent times and honestly I think this age of republics has produced an inferior social order.
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The feed back loop you propose ruled over an age when average men and women has few rights. That era was by far not the most humane and republics and democracies are a reaction to it. If we are honest most of the Priest abuse scandals happened in times and places where the Church (or society) placed unquestioning trust it. Authoritarian structures impose the power of a few over many. The populace tolerates this when either the many feel they can’t break it, they feel a trade off of some liberty is good for what they get, or they believe in the strict control themselves.
 
I’m pro-Franco and pro-monarchy so you’re really not gonna get very far with me.
 
Franco was not a fascist (fascism being a revolutionary and often anti-clerical form of nationalism) but an authoritarian for sure. He put down church burning, nun raping, priest murdering communists backed by the soviet union and defended the Church. He was not perfect and war is a messy issue but overall considering his situation and his Catholic piety he did the best that he could and I pray that he is in Heaven.
 
St. Josemaria Escriva was a Franco supporter (or so I once heard). You calling him a Fascist?
 
Inquisitor_rex said:
Franco was not a fascist (fascism being a revolutionary and often anti-clerical form of nationalism) but an authoritarian for sure. He put down church burning, nun raping, priest murdering communists backed by the soviet union and defended the Church.
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He certainly didn’t mind the Nazi’s assistance via Luftwaffe and generally good relations with Italy and Germany. Yes, technically he was not Fascist, but he also violently suppressed anything he felt did not fit into his idea what was authentically “Spanish” (sound familiar?).

I guess (assuming you are and American) why you would be in favor of a regime that contravenes the US Constitution, especially freedom of religion, free speech, and the like?
 
I do not see an issue with what Franco did. Religious liberty is not a Catholic value except insofar as the Church can exercise her rights. I absolutely reject separation of Church and State and reject absolute free speech (blasphemy and heresy should be illegal). The U.S. Constitution is a masonic and un-Catholic document.
 
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Hopefully in God’s presence <3

Just a reminder that Franco rejected national socialism, played both the axis and allies and was a devout Catholic, more so than Mussolini (who according to St Padre Pio was in purgatory for a short time and then Heaven)

Showing the good Caudillo next to Hitler does not discredit the good things Franco did nor is it an argument.
 
Inquisitor_rex said:
I do not see an issue with what Franco did. Religious liberty is not a Catholic value except insofar as the Church can exercise her rights. I absolutely reject separation of Church and State and reject absolute free speech (blasphemy and heresy should be illegal). The U.S. Constitution is a masonic and un-Catholic document.
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This is straight from VII off the Vatican website:

Dignitatis Humanae

This Vatican Council declares that the human person has a right to religious freedom. This freedom means that all men are to be immune from coercion on the part of individuals or of social groups and of any human power, in such wise that no one is to be forced to act in a manner contrary to his own beliefs, whether privately or publicly, whether alone or in association with others, within due limits.

The council further declares that the right to religious freedom has its foundation in the very dignity of the human person as this dignity is known through the revealed word of God and by reason itself.(2) This right of the human person to religious freedom is to be recognized in the constitutional law whereby society is governed and thus it is to become a civil right.

You are truly wrong about the church calling the US Constitution, specifically insofar as religious freedom goes, un-Catholic. It specifically requires it be a part of any Constitution.
 
Fascism does not mean authoritarianism. He was a dictator and the rightful regent of Spain and he was a hero.
 
Vatican II and its pastoral tenants are not infallible. Not to mention the religious liberty it is referring to is specifically to defend Catholic minorities like those in the U.S. and is not the Church saying it defends people belonging to false man made religions.

Religious liberty in the Catholic sense means the Church and her children have their rights protected from governments in the post-revolutionary world where the state no longer acts as the churches outright defender. It is the Church attempting to shift strategies for propagation of the gospel in a prisoners dilemma and as soon as the failing republican social order dies (thanks be to God when it does) the Church will immediately revert to the symphonic approach with the emerging dictatorships and kingdoms. See: Our Judges: The Coming Dark Age and The Historical Precedent of Strong Holy Men – Part I

“While our modern and effeminate parlance might practically spit the word “dictator” as an insulting epithet towards ambitious politicians, and while we might all caterwaul about the indignities of those so-called brutish and violent military leaders of times past, we must not look at history from the condescending lens of 21st century millennial technocrats with our hindsight correction set to 20/20, nor can we dismiss the validity of more authoritarian regimes because of our decadent democratic sensibilities. Yet as we drown in the blood of hundreds of millions of the unborn, we call ourselves civilized because we made such murder “legal” and have nice shiny high-tech abortion clinics that give Moloch his due sacrifices in a stream lined and rapid fashion rather than burning them in the hands of bronze idols.”
 
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Being an autocrat is not a bad thing and he defended the faithful from people that dug up the corpses of nuns to spit upon and mock them. I do not have libertarian sensibilities.
 
By cracking down on opposition parties, ruling the government with an iron fist, utilized concentration and forced labor camps, and, again, butchering hundreds of thousands of people. Not to mention supported the Axis powers.

It’s a great miscarriage of justice that Franco wasn’t dealt with in the same way Mussolini was. They were cut from the same cloth.
 
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