Government run by the (secular) people?

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St Padre Pio says Mussolini went to Heaven. Franco came to power because:
  1. Communists forced the abdication of the rightful King of Spain.
  2. Said communists proceeded to create anti-clerical laws
  3. The military said enough was enough
  4. The communists proceed to murder Catholics en masse
Why do you refuse to acknowledge the horrors of the republicans that were backed by the USSR which was far worse than the Axis.
 
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Well, some people still think Hitler was good and heroic, others stay similar about Stalin, and some even like Peron or Pinochet.

I guess it depends on what sort of ‘authoritarian follower’ they happen to be.

I don’t care for any of them, but to each their own.
 
Inquisitor_rex said:
Vatican II and its pastoral tenants are not infallible. Not to mention the religious liberty it is referring to is specifically to defend Catholic minorities like those in the U.S. and is not the Church saying it defends people belonging to false man made religions.
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There are only two infallible teachings, the Immaculate Conception and Mary’s Ascension into Heaven. I don’t know what other proof you need regarding Church teachings on religious freedom. The human organization represented by fallen people that make up the membership of the church body makes it specifically an imperfect human power as described in Dignitatis Humanae. The statements within do come with the implication that people will eventually find the final truth within the body of the Catholic Church. But, it declares that people should have the human dignity and freedom to find it without being forced to.

It’s clear that you are a member of some fringe conspiracy group supporting the indefensible “means justify the outcome” of an Authoritarian Dictator. That or you are just a troll. Either way there is no arguing sense with you.
 
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Fascism is a specific ideology that in Italy made the state an idol and in National Socialist Germany made the German ethnicity an idol. However in Franco’s Spain, Spanish Nationalism was not rooted in only their ethnic makeup nor the state but subordinated these goods to the faith and to God. It was authoritarian but it was Catholic. How can you not support a man who defended the faithful? Because he won by rendering harsh justice upon butchers and communists? Because he was more like Charlemagne and less like the Cristeros? I’d hate to see what you think of our crusading ancestors (and I don’t want to hear about the 4th crusade or those non-papaly sponsored ones afterward).
 
It’s not a Catholic document. It is therefore un-Catholic.
 
There are only two infallible teachings, the Immaculate Conception and Mary’s Ascension into Heaven.
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That is entirely incorrect. Those are the only infallible statements utilizing Papal Infallibility but that is only one of the components of ecclesiastical infallibility. The other is via a dogmatic declaration from an ecumenical council that adds to the extraordinary magisterium or a universal declaration by all bishops unanimously agreeing upon a dogma. Therefore all dogmatic councils of the Church (Nicea anyone?) are infallible. The Catholic Church contains the fullness of truth and is NOT merely human but is human and divine (human because of who occupies it, divine because of who instituted it – Christ – and who animates it – The Holy Spirit–) and the Church in her teachings on faith and morals are perfect.

With respect maybe you should work on learning your faith better starting with ecclesiology 🙂
 
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A bit of a correction to the OP, government should be run by the laity not the clergy (except in exceptional circumstances). Laity are the Church too. Ideally, everyone is a member of the Church so government would be run by one or more laity of the Church.

That being said, the Church has always taught that true governmental authority does not depend on the religion or virtue of the person exercising it.

As St. Robert Bellarmine said in his work on temporal government (appropriately titled, “De Laicis” (On the Laity)) he quotes St. Augustin saying:
“He Who gave dominion to Marius, gave it also to Caesar, He Who gave it to Augustus, gave it also to Nero, He Who gave it to Vespasian, father or son, most benign emperors, gave it also to the most cruel Domitian; and that it may not be necessary to recount every instance, He Who gave it to Constantine the Christian gave it also to Julian the Apostate.”
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Of course, there is also Our Lord and St. Paul in Scripture telling Christians to obey the pagan emperors. Our Lord even notes how God gave Pilate his authority.

Furthermore, the Church teaches that goverment’s purpose is to serve the common good and that the true religion should inform its conception of the common good and its decisions taken to serve it.
 
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Indeed! However even the clergy can have control in government. The Pope is a temporal king, and used to rule most of Italy. Many Archbishops and Cardinals acted as regents to kings, and this isn’t even mentioning that for a king to be a king he had to be coronated by the ranking clergyman in his realm, and the original Holy Roman Emperors were crowned by the Pope. In the later election system there were both secular and ecclesiastical electors for the imperial crown.
 
Yeah, even today, priests can vote. They’re not totally excluded.
 
Inquisitor_rex said:
Romans 13 would say you are wrong.
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Then there are a few times in the bible the people went against their rulers. Remember when the Jewish moms refused the pharohs order to kill all the Hebrew new born. There are more so either the bible contradicts itself or we only have to obey the leaders who are moral leaders. Those leaders that understand their limits on natural law.

Lets also discuss St. Pauls letter to Romans:

For the same reason you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing. Pay all of them their dues, taxes to whom taxes are due, revenue to whom revenue is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due.[36]

England, Randy. Free Is Beautiful: Why Catholics should be libertarian (p. 27). Unknown. Kindle Edition.

So ask yourself what is “due”? Who do we honor and why? Because they are elected? Why respect them?
 
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philipl said:
There are more so either the bible contradicts itself or we only have to obey the leaders who are moral leaders.
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We only have to obey their moral commands, not their immoral ones. But the power of someone with public authority is not contingent on their personal merits (an immoral ruler should still be obeyed, but not immoral laws).
 
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That is what I meant. Many catholic love the throw out Romans 13 as proof we are to follow all governments no matter what. Yet the bible has stories of people not following the orders of their leaders.
 
John Paul II himself wrote against govermental welfare. Let him explain it in his own words.

By intervening directly and depriving society of its responsibility, the Social Assistance State leads to a loss of human energies and an inordinate increase of public agencies, which are dominated more by bureaucratic ways of thinking than by concern for serving their clients, and which are accompanied by an enormous increase in spending. In fact, it would appear that needs are best understood and satisfied by people who are closest to them and who act as neighbors to those in need. It should be added that certain kinds of demands often call for a response John Paul II explained why government welfare is ineffective, inefficient and lacks the love and humanity of voluntary charity: By intervening directly and depriving society of its responsibility, the Social Assistance State leads to a loss of human energies and an inordinate increase of public agencies, which are dominated more by bureaucratic ways of thinking than by concern for serving their clients, and which are accompanied by an enormous increase in spending. In fact, it would appear that needs are best understood and satisfied by people who are closest to them and who act as neighbors to those in need. It should be added that certain kinds of demands often call for a response

England, Randy. Free Is Beautiful: Why Catholics should be libertarian (pp. 42-43). Unknown. Kindle Edition.
 
Inquisitor_rex said:
Vatican II and its pastoral tenants are not infallible.
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‘Tenets’, not ‘tenants’. Do forgive my indulging of my inner Grammar Policeman, but if you are going to criticise a lawful council of the Church, at least have the good taste to use proper English to do so.
 
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Inquisitor_rex said:
Fascism is a specific ideology that in Italy made the state an idol and in National Socialist Germany made the German ethnicity an idol. However in Franco’s Spain, Spanish Nationalism was not rooted in only their ethnic makeup nor the state but subordinated these goods to the faith and to God. It was authoritarian but it was Catholic. How can you not support a man who defended the faithful? Because he won by rendering harsh justice upon butchers and communists? Because he was more like Charlemagne and less like the Cristeros? I’d hate to see what you think of our crusading ancestors (and I don’t want to hear about the 4th crusade or those non-papaly sponsored ones afterward).
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Fascism (that includes Franco) and Communism are both evil. He did not defend the faithful. That is nonsense.
That is like the drug cartels who give money to the poor and build schools. It is designed to make people think they are good.
Franco was not a hero. He was a fascist butcher.
 
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