Grace/works/Salvation - Protestant disconnect?

[mikeledes]

But “immoral,” “impure,” “covetous” and “idolater” are not adjectives that describe the saved:1 Cor 6:9-11 "Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor {the} covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. (cf. Col. 1:12-14).In my previous message I pointed out that in Paul’s first letter to the Corinthian believers he starts out by addressing them as “those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling,” He identifies them first according to their new identity in Christ and then proceeds to address their fleshly behaviors for which he is writing to correct.

Let’s look at 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 within its context. Saint Paul is criticizing the behavior of the Christians at Corinth (6:1-8). Right before the verse you quoted, Saint Paul states:

8On the contrary, you yourselves wrong and defraud. You do this even to your brethren.
9Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God?

Why does Paul say in verse 9 "Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God?’ He is clearly saying this as a warning, that their behavior will not end in good. The question in verse 9 is directly linked to what Paul said in verse 8. He is reminding them that their unrighteous behavior will ultimately exclude them from the kingdom of God. Yes, he also reminds them in verse 11 that many of them practiced the sins listed and that they have been cleansed from these past sins. However, he warns them not to revert to their sinful past. Again, Saint Paul clearly states in Romans 8:12-13:

12So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh–
13for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live..

Empowered by the Holy Spirit, Christians must put to death the deeds of the body by becoming instruments of righteousness:

Galatians 5:16

16But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.

Paul also warns Christians of what will happen to those who do not put to death the deeds of the flesh:

Galatians 5:19-21

**19Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,
20idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,
21envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. **

In 1 Corinthians 10:6-12, Paul also states:

**6Now these things happened as examples for us, so that we would not crave evil things as they also craved.
7Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written, “THE PEOPLE SAT DOWN TO EAT AND DRINK, AND STOOD UP TO PLAY.”
8Nor let us act immorally, as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in one day.
9Nor let us try the Lord, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the serpents.
10Nor grumble, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the destroyer.
11Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.
12Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall. **

These warnings would be meaningless if there was no real danger for the Christian.

BTW, you don’t happen to know Apophasis? You strongly remind me of him.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[ErikaA]

But Erika, none of my explanations here benefit you unless you get off the plane to California.

I left California nine years ago so I’m not sure I get your point there. I guess you’re referring to my Catholic leanings. Either that or you’re rightly pointing out that my faith is largely a sincere intellectual interest in theology rather than an actual deep-seeded belief in the redemptive work of Jesus on the Cross. I of course want sincerely to believe in the testimonies of St. Paul and the Apostles. I really want to trust in the Bible and yet there is a block, that whisper of doubt that tells me it’s all just wishful thinking. How do I know this? Because my actions in no way betray a life of sacrifice and faith. I may be a good wife and mother (don’t take a poll though) and an overall decent productive member of society, but I do not live as though eternity is real. I live to secure material comforts here and now.

We human beings are not spirit. We are flesh and blood, body and soul. When we talk about our faith apart from our actions, we pretend that we are noncorporeal beings who just manifest ideas. We aren’t. We are will and action, faith and works, thinkers and doers. And so at the end of the day, our works flow from our faith and reveal it for what it is, whether we like it or not.

I used to think that because my works were simply a result of my faith, that they would just have to come along in accordance with the faith God alotted me. Now I see this whole thing as a choice. Do I choose to live a life of sacrifice or a life of ease? I can’t very well call Jesus Lord and do the latter.

 

[moondweller]

I agree that they had been separated before they were sentenced. The important part is WHY they were sentenced.

And the only reason given is because they’re goats (unbelievers). They’re the ones on His left.

Not doing was the reason they were condemned.

He doesn’t say “Depart from Me, accursed ones because I was hungry and you gave me nothing…”

In verse 46 He differentiates the two by “the righteous.” The righteous go into eternal life. This judgment occurs at the Christ’s second advent (it’s not the final judgment). Based on Scripture how does one become “righteous?” He must be reckoned so according to his FAITH"But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, HIS FAITH is reckoned as righteousness" (Rom. 4:5).

“being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus” (Rom. 3:21).

“…that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus” (Rom. 3:26)

“…He will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith” (Rom. 3:30).Those on His right are identified as “the righteous.” And it is these He says that go into eternal life. Now the righteous showed their faith by their works (Ja. 2:18), but it was not their works that put them into the community of “the righteous” and inheritors of eternal life (ref. Jn. 3:16-18).

Men may contradict the Bible, but the Bible does not contradict itself. Especially on the teachings of faith, righteousness and eternal life. It’s always consistent - beginning with Abraham (Gen. 15:6).

 

[moondweller]

I left California nine years ago so I’m not sure I get your point there. I guess you’re referring to my Catholic leanings. Either that or you’re rightly pointing out that my faith is largely a sincere intellectual interest in theology rather than an actual deep-seeded belief in the redemptive work of Jesus on the Cross. I of course want sincerely to believe in the testimonies of St. Paul and the Apostles. I really want to trust in the Bible and yet there is a block, that whisper of doubt that tells me it’s all just wishful thinking. How do I know this? Because my actions in no way betray a life of sacrifice and faith. I may be a good wife and mother (don’t take a poll though) and an overall decent productive member of society, but I do not live as though eternity is real. I live to secure material comforts here and now.

Bottom line, you still want to believe God will save you based on your own merits. And as long as you insist on believing this you will not, cannot, exercise the faith by which God reckons (credits) righteousness. I’m so sorry!

But I must ask, is this why you’re leaning toward Catholicism?

 

[ErikaA]

Bottom line, you still want to believe God will save you based on your own merits. And as long as you insist on believing this you will not, cannot, exercise the faith by which God reckons (credits) righteousness. I’m so sorry!

But I must ask, is this why you’re leaning toward Catholicism?

I am leaning toward Cathlocism because Protestants cannot successfully explain to me why a prostitute cannot be a Christian if faith alone saves. You think this is ludicrous and yes, it’s an extreme example of sin, but again, Protestants fail to explain to me the moral difference between prostitution and lying or gossiping. Is one more sinful than the other?

That said, there is one more very important reason. You hit it in your earlier post when you said, “Christians are not impure, immoral or greedy” (referring to the verse in Ephesians). I read that and instantly thought of 1John 1:8, “If we say we have so sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.” You can tell me that being immoral and impure is not the same thing as committing sin. Then what is immorality - a lot of sin, a little sinning or sinning in a way you think is really bad?

Oh and one more thing - Sola Scriptura. It is extremely disingenuous to say “I only believe what the Bible says”. When asked about the conflict between Paul’s talk of women teaching and prophesying in Corinthians (1Cor 13:34 and 11:5) and his admonition that “women should be silent” in 1Timothy, how do you reconcile this apparent contradiction? You should rightly say that these verses must be taken in context. But how do you do that, understand the context? Is the context written as “Scripture” or do you need to interpret the verse, understand to whom it was addressed? You cannot understand the audience and thus the context without historical tradition. Thus any insistence that you are trusting the Bible alone is false. You are trusting tradition and your own logic to discern the intent and true meaning. In both cases, it is not upon Scripture alone that you stand.

I could go on but the point is rather simple. In my very humble opinion, Protestant doctrine is at best illogical and at worst deceptive. I mean no offense to anyone in saying this. Again, it’s my opinion based upon the Biblical “difficulties” I’ve encountered in reading Scripture and the application of my own reason. I feel the Catholic doctrine better addresses these issues and relies on a much more holistic approach to Scripture. If however, as a Protestant, you do not encounter the same problems and/or they don’t bug you like they bug me, then great. We all must respond in a manner best suited to us individually.

 

[ErikaA]

Oh one more thing. If I just pray for God to pay my electric bill, is that faith alone? Thanks for the clarification.

 

[ralphinal]

Erika,
To me, one line in your post hit home.

We all must respond in a manner best suited to us individually.

This is a very American thought. In fact, theologically, it is an American Protestant thought. It is, however, correct. You feel called in a certain way. I have always felt like I am home. Others do not feel that way. Each has his own calling and each must respond accordingly.

Notice how neither side is hearing the other. Catholics are not saying you can work your way in. If I say that I can run a high wire from the Empire State Building to the Chrysler Building and walk across it, you may beleive me. That is faith. The faith that we are called to have by Christ will say that you will ride on my back as I do so. That is true faith.

I do not think that protestants are saying that you can do absolutely nothing and be alright. At the very least your life must change. I think that they are afraid because if either sola fide or sola scriptura fail, what point the protest?

My issue, and I may not be smart enough to get it right (doubtful) is that I understand Paul within CHrist, not the other way around. When Paul says that faith is all, I see a dynamic faith, not an intellectual one.

 

[mikeledes]

I feel the Catholic doctrine better addresses these issues and relies on a much more holistic approach to Scripture. If however, as a Protestant, you do not encounter the same problems and/or they don’t bug you like they bug me, then great. We all must respond in a manner best suited to us individually.

A holistic approach. I like that. I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but I’ve listed a bunch of verses that link salvation and good works. I have yet to receive a direct response and moodeweller has not been the only Protestant in this thread.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

Bottom line, you still want to believe God will save you based on your own merits. And as long as you insist on believing this you will not, cannot, exercise the faith by which God reckons (credits) righteousness. I’m so sorry!

But I must ask, is this why you’re leaning toward Catholicism?

Goodness, the more I read your posts, the more you remind me of Apophasis. Are both of you members of the same church? You do sound more like an Arminian that believes in eternal security than a Calvinist.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[grandfather]

Jesus gives us the parable of the virgins who go out to wait for the the bridegroom. Did He endorse polygamy? I think I will marry at least five of the ones who had some resources. There it is in scripture. Polygamy must be God’s will. Jesus used it as an example and said nothing against it. Can anyone see someone coming up with this interpretation to justify polygamy using scripture? Can anyone show me where scripture prohibits polygamy. It says a bishop should have one wife. I am not a bishops so I want ten.

Back to the virgins with the lamps. All of the virgins were out there waiting for the bridegroom. The bridegroom is Christ. They all believed He was coming, had faith in Him and that He would come to take them to the bridal chamber, heaven. They did not lack faith. They truly believed He was real and was coming for them, but did not know the hour. They had faith, or they would not have gone out to wait, but lacked oil for their lamps and then what happened? They could not persevere in their wait (faith). Does everyone who believes in Jesus as the savior enter the bridal chamber? No, only those who have enough grace to persevere in faith, hope and love.

Then when He comes to judge the world how will He judge you? What does Jesus Himself say about the matter? It will depend on what He finds you DOING according to scripture. Will you be beating your servant girl? Will you be cheating your employer, lying to your neighbor, sleeping with his wife, or lusting for her? What are you DOING right now? Are you in sin, but believing that you have oil in your lamp?

See Erika, what you made me do. I just had to read what you were writing and now I am mixed up in this futile dispute again.

God bless everyone sincerely seeking Him.

 

[moondweller]

I am leaning toward Cathlocism because Protestants cannot successfully explain to me why a prostitute cannot be a Christian if faith alone saves.

That’s because in your argument you refuse to differentiate between the woman and her profession. God doesn’t save professions, but such a woman when saved “through faith” knows through Spirit regeneration that she must change her “career” (Rom. 12:1-2).

I feel the Catholic doctrine better addresses these issues and relies on a much more holistic approach to Scripture.

So then you feel the Catholic, “holistic” approach is for a woman to go out and prostitute herself at night and enter the confessional booth in the morning. Interesting.

 

[moondweller]

A holistic approach. I like that. I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but I’ve listed a bunch of verses that link salvation and good works. I have yet to receive a direct response and moodeweller has not been the only Protestant in this thread.

God Bless,
Michael

Your “bunch of verses” didn’t teach salvation BY works.

 

[moondweller]

Jesus gives us the parable of the virgins who go out to wait for the the bridegroom. Did He endorse polygamy? I think I will marry at least five of the ones who had some resources. There it is in scripture. Polygamy must be God’s will. Jesus used it as an example and said nothing against it. Can anyone see someone coming up with this interpretation to justify polygamy using scripture? Can anyone show me where scripture prohibits polygamy. It says a bishop should have one wife. I am not a bishops so I want ten.

Back to the virgins with the lamps. All of the virgins were out there waiting for the bridegroom. The bridegroom is Christ. They all believed He was coming, had faith in Him and that He would come to take them to the bridal chamber, heaven. They did not lack faith. They truly believed He was real and was coming for them, but did not know the hour. They had faith, or they would not have gone out to wait, but lacked oil for their lamps and then what happened? They could not persevere in their wait (faith). Does everyone who believes in Jesus as the savior enter the bridal chamber? No, only those who have enough grace to persevere in faith, hope and love.

Then when He comes to judge the world how will He judge you? What does Jesus Himself say about the matter? It will depend on what He finds you DOING according to scripture. Will you be beating your servant girl? Will you be cheating your employer, lying to your neighbor, sleeping with his wife, or lusting for her? What are you DOING right now? Are you in sin, but believing that you have oil in your lamp?

See Erika, what you made me do. I just had to read what you were writing and now I am mixed up in this futile dispute again.

God bless everyone sincerely seeking Him.

You have essentially presented a salvation based on works.

 

[Metaron]

Your “bunch of verses” didn’t teach salvation BY works.

Did he say that…? You ignored the explanation beforehand, I think.

 

[grandfather]

You have essentially presented a salvation based on works.

No, Jesus told this parable, not me. The oil in the lamp is grace, not works. The ones who persevere to the end or have sufficient grace go with Jesus. They all had faith.

Your works can not save you, but you can not be saved without them. Scripture is full of example after example. Forget about being saved by faith. Faith is a work. Believing is something you DO. Just consider at being saved by grace and grace alone. Grace is not a work. Grace is given to us and does something to us. It transforms us, so that we repent and love and obey God. God loves the sinner, but the sinner is not forgiven until the grace works, causes repentance. The essence of the argument is does God forgive the sinner who remains in sin, or must the sinner have the grace to repent. Catholics say repentance is necessary. Repentance is something we DO, a work, BUT we do it by grace, and grace alone. My work does not earn me salvation, but I need it to be saved and I receive the power to repent from God, His grace.

 

[SyCarl]

No, Jesus told this parable, not me. The oil in the lamp is grace, not works. The ones who persevere to the end or have sufficient grace go with Jesus. They all had faith.

Your works can not save you, but you can not be saved without them. Scripture is full of example after example. Forget about being saved by faith. Faith is a work. Believing is something you DO. Just consider at being saved by grace and grace alone. Grace is not a work. Grace is given to us and does something to us. It transforms us, so that we repent and love and obey God. God loves the sinner, but the sinner is not forgiven until the grace works, causes repentance. The essence of the argument is does God forgive the sinner who remains in sin, or must the sinner have the grace to repent. Catholics say repentance is necessary. Repentance is something we DO, a work, BUT we do it by grace, and grace alone. My work does not earn me salvation, but I need it to be saved and I receive the power to repent from God, His grace.

I think that distinctions here are rather subtle, and to a degree a matter of semantics. We must remember to deal with what our churches teach and not what individuals say since there will be both Protestants and Catholics who do not follow what their church teaches.

The first thing to note is that Jesus and Paul seem to mean different things by the word faith, at least on some occasions. Jesus specifies that the work of God is to believe in Jesus. John 6:27. So as Jesus speaks here, faith is indeed a work. Paul seems to speak as if faith is not a work. Abraham was not justified by works before God. He was justified by his faith. Romans 4:1-3 Here Paul seems to draw a distinction between faith and works. He does the same thing in Ephesians 2:8-9 where he says we are saved by grace through faith, not by works. This would seem to exclude faith as a work as well.

Protestants and Catholics both agree that we are saved by grace through faith. The catch is the role of works and what is meant by faith. Protestants would include repentance as being part of a saving faith, not as a separate action. Works in love are seen as an essential result and evidence of this saving faith. Catholics seem to limit faith to mere intellectual consent, which most Protestants would agree does not save as is set out in James 2.

The main difference is whether our works merit anything. Protestants say that our works don’t merit salvation although those who have the chance to do them will have them. The Catholic Church says our works can merit an increase in grace and salavation but it also teaches that because of the great difference between God and man that we cannot really merit anything from God.

I really think that we are closer than we think and would question if God really expects us to understand all the subtle minutae of his plans.

 

[moondweller]

No, Jesus told this parable, not me. The oil in the lamp is grace, not works. The ones who persevere to the end or have sufficient grace go with Jesus. They all had faith.

Your works can not save you, but you can not be saved without them. Scripture is full of example after example. Forget about being saved by faith. Faith is a work. Believing is something you DO. Just consider at being saved by grace and grace alone. Grace is not a work. Grace is given to us and does something to us. It transforms us, so that we repent and love and obey God. God loves the sinner, but the sinner is not forgiven until the grace works, causes repentance. The essence of the argument is does God forgive the sinner who remains in sin, or must the sinner have the grace to repent. Catholics say repentance is necessary. Repentance is something we DO, a work, BUT we do it by grace, and grace alone. My work does not earn me salvation, but I need it to be saved and I receive the power to repent from God, His grace.

Here’s what you stated above:

Then when He comes to judge the world how will He judge you?

Here’s what Jesus Himself said:John 3:17-18 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."The Apostolic gospel does not stray from nor add to Christ’s words.

 

[mikeledes]

Did he say that…? You ignored the explanation beforehand, I think.

Thank You! Though all of this is sounding extremely familiar.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

You have essentially presented a salvation based on works.

No matter how many times Catholics explain themselves, you will always counter “salvation based on works.” What I find interesting about this is that I suspect you are an eternal security Arminian. From a Calvinist perspective, your gospel is also a gospel of works since salvation depends on chosing to believe, which many Calvinists consider a work because it is based on human choice/ effort. No matter how you slice it or dice it, they would argue that your Gospel is one based on human effort and not on God. Of course, when arguing against Catholics, Calvinists and Arminians will have a united front. I’ve seen it in these forums. However, for many Calvinists, eternal security Arminians are teaching a false gospel and even have a different God from that of the gospel. And they base their claims on the Bible and adhere to Sola Scriptura.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Bluebutterfies]

"We are saved by grace, God’s unmerrited and unlimited favor based on His astounding love for us as shown through Christ Jesus. Salvation is in His hands,not ours, through grace we RESPOND [emphasis added] to His call…through grace he seeks to “draw all men to himself.”

Protestant theology does not view the Bible as a whole (and how could they when Martin Luther threw out whole books of the Bible that corresponded with Catholic theology. Many Protestants don’t even know that he did that.) All through the Bible (Old and New Testament), God forgives sins WHEN people REPENTED, however that repentance was more than lip service and sin was always shown to have consequences, even to the third and fourth generations. Jesus Himself said that you will know a tree by its FRUITS. He exemplified this by cursing an actual tree that did not produce any actual fruit. He also told someone to go and sin no more or else something worse might happen. Faith without works is dead faith. Exorcised demons return to an empty house with even more demons. A sinner returns to his sin like dog returns to his vomit, etc., etc., etc. The Bible also says that upon two or three witnesses, a fact is established, then why are words and sentences totally separated in Protestant theology? To pick and choose what you want to believe? The Bible is not an idol unto itself and the wording of each different Bible book/phrase only points to and gives us a glimpse of a whole God.