Grace/works/Salvation - Protestant disconnect?

[grandfather]

A Christian prostitute is an oxymoron: a combination of contradictory or incongruous words
(as cruel kindness),

Then what about a Christian liar, or tax cheat, or one who sells his used car without revealing the bad transmission, or who had a little too much to drink, or who was impatient with an employee and humiliated him. If your son came home and lied to you about doing his homework does that make him not a Christian. I thought sin did not matter. All sin is the same. Once saved always saved. Then why does it matter for the prostitute. Read the posts on the forum. The Protestants are saying that they are forgiven while in their sins. You are the one parsing degree of sin if your son can lie about his homework, but the prostitute is not a Christian. Don’t you see that? You say that you can be in sin and Jesus overlooks it, but the prostitute can’t. What do you say to your son who professes to be a Christian and lied about his homework? Do you tell him moral spiritual disorder in his life it does not matter, because he is saved anyway. I’ll bet you tell him he needs to be sorry and not do it again or he will have severe consequences. The Protestant sinner does not have to concern himself with turning from sin, whatever it is, because he knows it does not matter. If I have faith and am engaged in homosexual promiscuity, so what. If I have faith and cheat on my time sheet $10, it is the same thing. I don’t need to repent. I am saved. This is what the Protestants on this forum have been saying. Read the posts. They say sin does not matter. God does not overllok sin. He forgives it when we repent. If you call Him Lord and do not do what He tells you He CAN NOT help you.

Do Protestants praise Billy Graham, Moody, Luther, Calvin, anybody? Do you not have any examples of Christian living you admire, like the missionary who was martyred somewhere. I know all Protestants do, because I hear them. I have been to their funerals and listen to the great eulogies about how great a Christian so and so was and they are sure the person is in heaven. Catholics call this canonization. Just be careful you don’t say anything nice about Mother Teresa, or the Mother of God, a couple of ordinary Catholic women. All the while you do not see the hypocricy of it.

 

[mikeledes]

When someone arrogantly claims that they are trying to impress God with their good works, they are unknowingly admitting that they know nothing concerning the grace of God. Salvation cannot be of grace and works as we have already learned from Romans 11:6. The grace of God does for us what we cannot do for ourselves, if we could save ourselves we wouldn’t need the grace of God.

All the love and kindness in the world will NOT get you into Heaven.

“But we are all as an unclean thing, and** ALL OUR RIGHTEOUSNESSES ARE AS FILTHY RAGS**; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away” (Isaiah 64:60).

Your money, kindness, sincerity, positive efforts, generosity and commitment mean nothing to God if you are trying to impress Him by your own self-righteousness. If you are trusting in the righteousness of Jesus Christ (realizing that you have no righteousness of your own), then all the good things you do as a Child of God are well pleasing unto the Lord.

Romans 3:10, “As it is written, There is none righteous, no, **not one.” **

Romans 10:10, “For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness…”

The Reason Why People Become Self-Righteous

The problem that most people face is that they look and compare themselves with other people instead of God’s Word. “For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are NOT WISE” (2nd Corinthians 10:12).

“Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as **OTHER MEN **are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted” (Luke 18:10-14). The Pharisee made the woeful mistake of comparing himself to **“OTHER MEN.” ** The publican had his heart set on God alone.

Okay. And Catholics say that good works are ultimately the fruits of God’s grace, for apart from his grace we cannot be saved nor can we do anything that is deserving of any kind of reward (i.e. crowns, etc.) The good works Catholics are talking about are those works rooted in faith and love, and only those who are already in a state of grace, who are already righteous can truly possess these two virtues. The verses you keep on citing refers to those who are not in a state of grace and thus attempt to “make up” for their sinfulness by trying to do good things.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Fisher]

Okay. And Catholics say that good works are ultimately the fruits of God’s grace, for apart from his grace we cannot be saved nor can we do anything that is deserving of any kind of reward (i.e. crowns, etc.) The good works Catholics are talking about are those works rooted in faith and love, and only those who are already in a state of grace, who are already righteous can truly possess these two virtues. The verses you keep on citing refers to those who are not in a state of grace and thus attempt to “make up” for their sinfulness by trying to do good things.

God Bless,
Michael

Right

 

[mikeledes]

Right

Well I’m glad we agree on something, though I suspect this is too good to be true.

BTW, are you a Calvinist or an Arminian?

God Bless,
Michael

 

[sandusky]

grandfather:

Then what about a Christian liar, or tax cheat, or one who sells his used car without revealing the bad transmission, or who had a little too much to drink, or who was impatient with an employee and humiliated him. If your son came home and lied to you about doing his homework does that make him not a Christian. I thought sin did not matter. All sin is the same. Once saved always saved. Then why does it matter for the prostitute. Read the posts on the forum. The Protestants are saying that they are forgiven while in their sins. You are the one parsing degree of sin if your son can lie about his homework, but the prostitute is not a Christian. Don’t you see that? You say that you can be in sin and Jesus overlooks it, but the prostitute can’t. What do you say to your son who professes to be a Christian and lied about his homework? Do you tell him moral spiritual disorder in his life it does not matter, because he is saved anyway. I’ll bet you tell him he needs to be sorry and not do it again or he will have severe consequences. The Protestant sinner does not have to concern himself with turning from sin, whatever it is, because he knows it does not matter. If I have faith and am engaged in homosexual promiscuity, so what. If I have faith and cheat on my time sheet $10, it is the same thing. I don’t need to repent. I am saved. This is what the Protestants on this forum have been saying. Read the posts. They say sin does not matter. God does not overllok sin. He forgives it when we repent. If you call Him Lord and do not do what He tells you He CAN NOT help you.

What you rail against is antinomianism.**Romans 6:1-2

What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?**If one is doing those things that you describe on a continual basis, their being in Christ should definitely be questioned, and, their fellow believers are under an obligation to confront them
(Mt 18:15ff).

So you miss the mark in your caricature of those who know, and understand scripture, and oppose antinomianism, and those who don’t.

For you edification:

1. Antinomianism
• One need not persevere in faith to be saved.
• True believers can lose their faith.
• Those who lose their faith are saved, since they once believed.

“The believer who loses his faith is saved.”

2. Classic Calvinism
• One must persevere in faith to be saved.
• True believers cannot lose their faith, since it’s God’s gift.
• Those dying without faith in Christ are condemned.
• Those who “lose” their faith never had it to begin with.
• God will preserve true believers and they will be saved.

“The ‘believer’ who loses his faith never really had it—or at least it wasn’t in Jesus, but in his works performed " while in a state of grace."

grandfather:

Do Protestants praise Billy Graham, Moody, Luther, Calvin, anybody? Do you not have any examples of Christian living you admire, like the missionary who was martyred somewhere. I know all Protestants do, because I hear them. I have been to their funerals and listen to the great eulogies about how great a Christian so and so was and they are sure the person is in heaven. Catholics call this canonization. Just be careful you don’t say anything nice about Mother Teresa, or the Mother of God, a couple of ordinary Catholic women. All the while you do not see the hypocricy of it.

What does that have to do with an oxymoronic Christian prostitute?

 

[ErikaA]

What you rail against is antinomianism.Romans 6:1-2

What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?If one is doing those things that you describe on a continual basis, their being in Christ should definitely be questioned, and, their fellow believers are under an obligation to confront them
(Mt 18:15ff).

So you miss the mark in your caricature of those who know, and understand scripture, and oppose antinomianism, and those who don’t.

For you edification:

What does that have to do with an oxymoronic Christian prostitute?

So Sandusky, you’re not an antinomianist? Based on the above, it sounds as though I have to “persevere” for salvation. Isn’t perseverance an action?

 

[sandusky]

ErikaA:

So Sandusky, you’re not an antinomianist? Based on the above, it sounds as though I have to “persevere” for salvation. Isn’t perseverance an action?

Read it again, Erika; I stated that believer must persevere, and that “God preserves the believer.” Salvation is “of God;” it belongs to Him; it’s a gift He gives to whom He chooses.

Jesus said that He gives His sheep life, and they will never perish. Paul was confident that, since Christ had begun a good work in believers, He would continue that work until completion (Phil. 1). John said that those who fell away were never really true Christians, since true believers don’t leave the faith (1 John 2:19). Peter said that the believer is protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time (1 Pet 1:5).

The testimony is clear that faith is “a gift of God—not by works, lest any man boast.”

 

[mikeledes]

So Sandusky, you’re not an antinomianist? Based on the above, it sounds as though I have to “persevere” for salvation. Isn’t perseverance an action?

Erika, I think Catholic teachings on grace, faith, and works must be understood within the broader context of predestination, which is a Catholic dogma. All Catholic theologians agree on the following:

But in any case, from this minimum admitted by all we get three propositions to which all Catholic theologians subscribe. They are: (1) Predestination to the first grace is not because God foresaw our naturally good works, nor is the beginning of salutary acts due to natural causes; (2) predestination to glory is not because God foresaw we would continue in the performance of supernaturally meritorious acts apart from the special gift of final perseverance; (3) complete predestination, in so far as it comprises the whole series of graces from the first up to glorification, is gratuitous or previous to foreseen merits. These three propositions are admitted by all Catholic theologians.

This comes from:

thesumma.info/predestination/predestination4.php

The vocation to salvation is absolutely gratuitous. God does not call anyone to be saved on the basis of their own goodness or works. Moreover, the gift of final perseverance (i.e. which basically means dying in a state of grace) is also a gratuitous gift of God. What happens between when one is justified and death is also rooted in God’s grace, since it is impossible for man to do anything - especially persevere - apart from His grace. Any reward that we get based on merits (i.e. "crowns, etc.) is based on God’s gracious promises, not on any inherent claim that we may have. Even our merits are fruits of His grace. When Catholics perform works, they are not trusting in their works for their salvation. Rather they are placing their full trust in Christ (in what He has done on the Cross and what He has taught us regarding salvation). What we do is to be done out of humble service to God and out of pure love of God and neighbor. Therefore, we cannot glory in what we do or say “See God, look at all the good things we’ve done. Now give me entrance into heaven.” No. Our attitude is the one expressed in Luke 17:10:

10"So you too, when you do all the things which are commanded you, say, ‘We are unworthy slaves; we have done only that which we ought to have done.’"

Any attitude other than the one above is not considered deserving of any kind of reward and is not rooted in love of God or neighbor. Those who enter eternal glory are there because God ensured that they would be there.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[justinthemartyr]

hebrews speaks of believers that gave the gift back and lost it forever.

John 15 and romans 11 tell us of those IN the True Vine(Christ) that are cut off from the True vine and are withered and burned unless they come back into obedience.

this is not talk of salvation for those once In Christ, but if hell fire.

 

[moondweller]

That you can praise and admire no one is far more disappointing.

For You? Why? I admire many people, but I refrain from praising and exalting them to the degree you did with M.T. Historically men did the same with Mary and took her far beyond the Scriptures would allow.

But I wonder, since you seem so insistent on parsing faith and works, tell me why the Christian prostitute is less a Christian than you? Is she? Or is she just making a living in accordance with the upbringing and talents she was afforded? One can still love God and sin can’t they? And since all sin’s the same, one can engage in prostitution and still love God - right?

So now you grab for the absurd.

 

[justinthemartyr]

took her far beyond the scriptures would allow?

that is a silly statement at best. The scriptures take you farther than any person in the church would allow in the first 16 centuries. The reformers took scripture farther than the apostles and their disciples did for 1521 years of Christendom.

Fortunately the church and her Sacred Tradition is equal to the written Word, and Paul stated this plainly in 2 thess 2:15.
In fact, you wouldn’t be holding that Bible in your hand if it were not for the Sacred Tradition of the One Church, for the scriptures never list the inspired books of scripture, it took God working through the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic church to do this.

 

[Fisher]

So, if I accept Jesus as my savior and believe in him, even if I never lift a finger, I am saved? How does that fit with Matt 25? John 14:21 tells us that if we love Christ, we will keep his commandments.

And, once I believe in Jesus, am I then incapable of sin? Once saved, always saved?

Works come after, as a result of salvation James said
002:018 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and **I will shew thee my faith by my works. 002:019 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
002:020 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
002:021 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
002:022 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? **

Romans004:002 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
004:003 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
004:004 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
004:005 But to him that worketh not, but **believeth **that justifieth the ungodly on him , his faith is counted for righteousness.

005:001 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
005:002 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

And, once I believe in Jesus, am I then incapable of sin? Once saved, always saved?

Romans006:001 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
006:002 **God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? **006:003 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

006:004 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

1 John 001:006 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
001:007 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, **and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. **001:008 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
001:009 **If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. **

002:001 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And** if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: **002:002 **And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our’s only, but also for the sins of the whole world. **

 

[moondweller]

We have been enabled by God’s grace to believe

So you’re a Calvinist?

and to do those works pleasing to Him and we will be held accountable on how we use the gifts He’s given us.

For salvation, Mike?

 

[moondweller]

Read the posts on the forum. The Protestants are saying that they are forgiven while in their sins.

I could go into a whole doctrinal discourse on the fact that a true believer is no longer “in sin,” but rather now “in Christ” who died “to sin” (our sins) once for all. But I don’t have the time or the space. But was Peter wrong when he said:Acts 10:43 "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins."Or Paul:Acts 13:38 "Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you,

You say that you can be in sin and Jesus overlooks it, but the prostitute can’t.

Sin is never overlooked. Redemption came at a very high cost.

The Protestant sinner does not have to concern himself with turning from sin, whatever it is, because he knows it does not matter. If I have faith and am engaged in homosexual promiscuity, so what. If I have faith and cheat on my time sheet $10, it is the same thing. I don’t need to repent. I am saved. This is what the Protestants on this forum have been saying. Read the posts. They say sin does not matter.

You read the posts? Can you quote any of the Protestants here saying the things you say they said?

God does not overllok sin. He forgives it when we repent.

Is that when we’re forgiven? What does Acts 10:43 above say?

If you call Him Lord and do not do what He tells you He CAN NOT help you.

Help you what?

Do Protestants praise Billy Graham, Moody, Luther, Calvin, anybody? Do you not have any examples of Christian living you admire, like the missionary who was martyred somewhere. I know all Protestants do, because I hear them. I have been to their funerals and listen to the great eulogies about how great a Christian so and so was and they are sure the person is in heaven. Catholics call this canonization.

Protestants don’t vote anyone into sainthood. We know that a man is now in heaven not because of his works, but because of his faith in Christ, and Christ alone. In this life he turned from his unbelief to belief and trusted in what Christ accomplished FOR HIM, once for all, on the cross. Therefore he was no longer “in sin” but “in Christ” who redeemed (purchased) him with His blood.

Just be careful you don’t say anything nice about Mother Teresa, or the Mother of God, a couple of ordinary Catholic women. All the while you do not see the hypocricy of it.

Saying nice things is one thing, exalting them beyond humanity is another. Since "all sinned and are falling short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift (not because of their works) by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus (Rom. 3:23-24).

 

[mikeledes]

So you’re a Calvinist?

No. That’s basic Catholic doctrine as found in the Council of Orange and in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Catholics believe that man cannot come to faith apart from the grace of God. Are you a Calvinist?

To be continued…

 

[mikeledes]

For salvation, Mike?

Depends on what you mean by salvation. Salvation can refer to justification and can refer to glorification, which will occur in the age to come. God’s plan of salvation works out in time. That’s why it says in Romans 13:11:

Do this, knowing the time, that it is already the hour for you to awaken from sleep; for now salvation is nearer to us than when we believed.

Mark 10:30

29Jesus said, "Truly I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or farms, for My sake and for the gospel’s sake,
30but that he will receive a hundred times as much now in the present age, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and farms, along with persecutions; and in the age to come, eternal life.

Matthew 25:46:

** 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”**

If by salvation you mean when we finally enter eternal glory - which is also referred to as eternal life in the Bible - then works do play a role in the sense that God has promised eternal glory (actual possession of the heavenly kingdom) to those who have a faith that works through love. And these works are fundamentally a visible manifestation of the work God has done in us. They are the fruits of the surrendering of the human will of the Christian to the direction of the indwelling Holy Spirit:

Romans 2:6-7

6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

John 5:28-29

**Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. **

Galatians 6:7-10

Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life. 9 And let us not grow weary while doing good, for in due season we shall reap if we do not lose heart. 10 Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all, especially to those who are of the household of faith.

Luke 10:25-28

**25 And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”
26 He said to him, “What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?”
27 So he answered and said, “ ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’ and ‘your neighbor as yourself.’”
28 And He said to him, “You have answered rightly; do this and you will live.” **

1 Peter 1:16-17

** 16 because it is written, “Be holy, for I am holy.”
17 And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear;**

Hebrews 12:14

14 Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord:

James 3:5

5 Listen, my beloved brethren: Has God not chosen the poor of this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him?

And what does it mean to love God?

2 John 6

This is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, that as you have heard from the beginning, you should walk in it.

And yet faith and love are fruits of the Holy Spirit and those who are predestined to glory will have a faith that works through love because God will ensure it by giving them all of the graces and spiritual gifts necessary and granting the gift of final perseverance.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

Works come after, as a result of salvation James said
002:018 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and **I will shew thee my faith by my works. 002:019 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
002:020 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
002:021 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
002:022 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? **

I agree that works come after salvation if by salvation you mean when we are first delivered from our sins (its debt and power). That moment we have a new relationship with God, one between a father and his child. And yet, what we do after we become a child of God does have an impact on that relationship. The child of God can turn away from Him and can also fall from grace:

Galatians 1:6

**6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, **

Galatians 5:1-4

**1It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.
2Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you.
3And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.
4You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. **

There were those in the early years of the Church who were reverting to the Mosaic Law/ Old Covenant (i.e. circumcision, kosher laws, etc.). Many Jews and Judaizing Christians claimed that you could only be saved and be a child of God if you were a member of God’s chosen race. This could only occur in two ways: you are either born into it or you become a member by being circumcised and observing the Law of Moses. This is the controversy addressed by the Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15. The basic message of Paul in Romans and Galatians is that one cannot become righteous before God - liberation from the debt and power of sin - by observing the Mosaic law. If that were possible, then the Cross of Christ would not be necessary:

Galatians 2:21

**21"I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly." **

Again, when Paul uses the the phrase “The Law”, he is talking specifically about the Mosaic Law/ The Old Covenant:

Galatians 3:17

17What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise.

The 430 years clearly indicates that Paul has the Mosaic Law in mind when he says “The Law.” Therefore, when he uses the phrase “works of the law”, he has in mind all of the precepts associated with the Mosaic Law, especially the ceremonial laws. Note how often he refers to circumcision - which is a defining ritual of the Old Covenant - in Romans (especially Romans 4) and Galatians. Moreover, Paul makes a clear distinction between “The Law” and “The Law of Christ:”

1 Corinthians 9:20-21

**20To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law; ** **21to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law. **

The Law of Christ is love and by this law we shall be judged (James 2:12). The moral law of God formerly expressed in the Old Covenat now continues in the New Covenant as the Law of Christ and is given new life. The moral precepts in the Mosaic Law served to teach us what was sinful and to point out our sinfulness, but it had no power to deliver us from the power of sin (Romans 8:3). The moral law in the New Covenant is rooted in love, an internal principle that is the result of an internal change of the person, a fruit of the Cross of Christ.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[ralphinal]

I guess I wasn’t meant to be Protestant. I still do not see the disconect here.

Grace, if acted upon, leads to faith.
Faith, if a living faith, leads to salvation.
Our faith, per Jesus, is judged by our deeds. What we do shows others that we are with Jesus and, in the end, it is used to determine our eternal destination.

I arrived at the last point from the Gospel. These are the teachings of Jesus. Paul seems to say something else. Seems is the key word. Works are of no use without faith, and works of the old law are not the way either.

 

[moondweller]

No. That’s basic Catholic doctrine as found in the Council of Orange and in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Catholics believe that man cannot come to faith apart from the grace of God.

When you say, “come to faith,” what does that mean? Faith in what?

 

[moondweller]

Depends on what you mean by salvation. Salvation can refer to justification and can refer to glorification, which will occur in the age to come.

So you’re “to do those works pleasing to Him” for justification? Glorification? Or both?