Grace/works/Salvation - Protestant disconnect?

[moondweller]

Ralphinal:

Somehow, I missed one of my favorites. Matt 5:14-16. “Let your light shine before men that they may see the GOOD WORKS that you do and give glory to God.”

I have no problem with good works. It’s when you claim salvation hinges on them that we run into enormous problems.

No, I own my computer, but my stuff does not own me. Do not question if I actually do what I can when I can. I am not here to discuss what I do.

You’re the one who brought up the passage. In my readings here I’ve seen others cite that very passage as one of the things one must do to inherit eternal life. Yet always avoiding Christ’s plain and simple words found in Jn. 3:16-18 or Jn. 5:24. A true believer in Christ is beyond condemnation. He cannot be judged (condemned) for sins for which Christ was condemned already (2 Cor. 5:21).

 

[ralphinal]

[QUOTENo problem with “faith with works.” The saved are to “walk by faith” (which would produce works). Arrogance is the notion that salvation itself is ever based on those works. Mother Theresa struggled even with the very existence of God.
Quote:
]

I think that this is incorrect, What she mentioned was not always feeling His presence in her life. It is known as spiritual dryness, and it is very common.

 

[moondweller]

No problem with “faith with works.” The saved are to “walk by faith” (which would produce works). Arrogance is the notion that salvation itself is ever based on those works. Mother Theresa struggled even with the very existence of God.

Quote:
I think that this is incorrect, What she mentioned was not always feeling His presence in her life. It is known as spiritual dryness, and it is very common.

Not based on what I heard.

 

[ralphinal]

I have no problem with good works. It’s when you claim salvation hinges on them that we run into enormous problems.You’re the one who brought up the passage. In my readings here I’ve seen others cite that very passage as one of the things one must do to inherit eternal life. Yet always avoiding Christ’s plain and simple words found in Jn. 3:16-18 or Jn. 5:24. A true believer in Christ is beyond condemnation. He cannot be judged (condemned) for sins for which Christ was condemned already (2 Cor. 5:21).

So, if I accept Jesus as my savior and believe in him, even if I never lift a finger, I am saved? How does that fit with Matt 25? John 14:21 tells us that if we love Christ, we will keep his commandments.

And, once I believe in Jesus, am I then incapable of sin? Once saved, always saved?

 

[ralphinal]

Not based on what I heard.

I know. The media is misrepresenting it so that it casts a doubt on a great, holy woman. The actual quotes were about not feeling Him. She kept praying and working and believing.

 

[moondweller]

I know. The media is misrepresenting it so that it casts a doubt on a great, holy woman. The actual quotes were about not feeling Him. She kept praying and working and believing.

Believing what? Have you read the letters?

 

[ralphinal]

Believing what? Have you read the letters?

Some. Probably the same things you read. Compare the same stories from different sources. She could not feel God in her life and she prayed that she would. Is that doubt in Him?

NPR called it a dryness
npr.org/blogs/news/2007/08/mother_teresas_spiritual_crisi_1.html

Catholic News Service has the quote about her doubting his existance, but in context it is not a denial of it. It was a side effect of having a calling then not feeling God’s presence

catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0201292.htm

Atheists spin it their way. Note that they say it was a decades long thing, where the other sites list it as a shorter term event

daylightatheism.org/2007/08/mother-teresas-loss-of-faith.html

Another Catholic site sees it differently Look at the date on this one… It also explains the desire to have the letters destroyed. Why did it take two years for this to become such a scandle?

americancatholic.org/Messenger/Sep2005/feature2.asp

I am friends with a priest who was a close friend of hers for decades. He said that he knew of the dryness but at no point was it truly atheism or even doubt that she was doing God’;s will

 

[moondweller]

So, if I accept Jesus as my savior and believe in him, even if I never lift a finger, I am saved? How does that fit with Matt 25? John 14:21 tells us that if we love Christ, we will keep his commandments.

And, once I believe in Jesus, am I then incapable of sin? Once saved, always saved?

You’re never saved by “lifting a finger.” You are saved by sovereign, divine grace through faith in the One who was lifted up on a cross for the forgiveness of ALL your sins and your redemption through His shed blood. :extrahappy:

No, the saved are not incapable of sinning. But we are beyond condemnation because of sins. You see, sovereign grace came AFTER the cross where our sins were sacrificially and substitutionally dealt with, “once for all” (Heb. 10:12). So that now, this side of the cross, “grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord” (Rom. 5:21)

This is the content of the faith through which God saves and justifies the ungodly, Ralphinal. Such faith glorifies the Son.

 

[moondweller]

Some. Probably the same things you read. Compare the same stories from different sources. She could not feel God in her life and she prayed that she would. Is that doubt in Him?

NPR called it a dryness
npr.org/blogs/news/2007/08/mother_teresas_spiritual_crisi_1.html

Catholic News Service has the quote about her doubting his existance, but in context it is not a denial of it. It was a side effect of having a calling then not feeling God’s presence

catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0201292.htm

Atheists spin it their way. Note that they say it was a decades long thing, where the other sites list it as a shorter term event

daylightatheism.org/2007/08/mother-teresas-loss-of-faith.html

Another Catholic site sees it differently Look at the date on this one… It also explains the desire to have the letters destroyed. Why did it take two years for this to become such a scandle?

americancatholic.org/Messenger/Sep2005/feature2.asp

I am friends with a priest who was a close friend of hers for decades. He said that he knew of the dryness but at no point was it truly atheism or even doubt that she was doing God’;s will

Thanks for the references. I’ll look at them.

 

[ErikaA]

Believing what? Have you read the letters?

I have. I am reading the book, “Come Be My Light.” She’s a truly humble woman. I am amazed in fact. That she did all she did while still feeling outside of God’s presence contradicts everything I used to believe. I was of the Randian school that we all do everything for ego satisfaction. I used to assume Mother Theresa did what she did because it gave her spiritual comfort, made her feel closer to God, thus the ego satisfaction. But read this book and you’ll see that’s not at all what was going on. She did everything despite the lack of comfort and spiritual elation. And she said it was all God’s doing. You and I cannot imagine such humility or faith. We are not even fit to discuss a woman of this magnitude. That we are on this forum arguing these points proves it.

 

[mikeledes]

Not according to Jesus in Jn. 3:18 & 5:24. And not according to Paul in Rom. 8:1.

So we son’t be judged according to our works?

Romans 2:6-7

6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

John 5:28-29

**Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. **

Galatians 6:7-10

Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life. 9 And let us not grow weary while doing good, for in due season we shall reap if we do not lose heart. 10 Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all, especially to those who are of the household of faith.

Matthew 25:31-36

**31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy[c] angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’ **

Luke 10:25-28

**25 And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”
26 He said to him, “What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?”
27 So he answered and said, “ ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’ and ‘your neighbor as yourself.’”
28 And He said to him, “You have answered rightly; do this and you will live.” **

1 Peter 1:16-17

,** 16 because it is written, “Be holy, for I am holy.”
17 And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear;**

It sure don’t sound like it.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

You’re never saved by “lifting a finger.” You are saved by sovereign, divine grace through faith in the One who was lifted up on a cross for the forgiveness of ALL your sins and your redemption through His shed blood. :extrahappy:

No, the saved are not incapable of sinning. But we are beyond condemnation because of sins. You see, sovereign grace came AFTER the cross where our sins were sacrificially and substitutionally dealt with, “once for all” (Heb. 10:12). So that now, this side of the cross, “grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord” (Rom. 5:21)

This is the content of the faith through which God saves and justifies the ungodly, Ralphinal. Such faith glorifies the Son.

Matthew 7:21

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

1 John 2:17

17 And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever.

BTW, what do you mean by “sovereign grace came after the Cross?” That those who lived prior to the Cross were saved apart from the grace of God? How were Abel, Noah, Abraham, Rahab, etc. justified?

God Bless,
Michael

 

[moondweller]

I have. I am reading the book, “Come Be My Light.” She’s a truly humble woman. I am amazed in fact. That she did all she did while still feeling outside of God’s presence contradicts everything I used to believe. I was of the Randian school that we all do everything for ego satisfaction. I used to assume Mother Theresa did what she did because it gave her spiritual comfort, made her feel closer to God, thus the ego satisfaction. But read this book and you’ll see that’s not at all what was going on. She did everything despite the lack of comfort and spiritual elation. And she said it was all God’s doing. You and I cannot imagine such humility or faith. We are not even fit to discuss a woman of this magnitude. That we are on this forum arguing these points proves it.

Careful about praising and exalting people, Erika. You might find yourself sorely disappointed again.

 

[moondweller]

BTW, what do you mean by “sovereign grace came after the Cross?.”

I referenced Rom. 5:21. This side of the cross GRACE REIGNS, not law.

That those who lived prior to the Cross were saved apart from the grace of God? How were Abel, Noah, Abraham, Rahab, etc. justified?

By God through FAITH.

 

[moondweller]

Some. Probably the same things you read. Compare the same stories from different sources. She could not feel God in her life and she prayed that she would. Is that doubt in Him? I am friends with a priest who was a close friend of hers for decades. He said that he knew of the dryness but at no point was it truly atheism or even doubt that she was doing God’;s will

I read the pages you suggested. Those pages and along other things I’ve read, including quotes, give me the idea that her struggle was beyond just “spiritual dryness.” It seems to me the woman lacked an inward sense of her own salvation.

 

[mikeledes]

I referenced Rom. 5:21. This side of the cross GRACE REIGNS, not law.

I agree! When Paul uses the term “Law”, he is referring to the Mosaic Law, the Old Covenant. The Mosaic Law served to point out our sin, but it did not provide the means to overcome the power of sin:

Romans 8:2-5

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.

Once we’ve been liberated from the power of sin by His grace, we now become slaves of righteousness, enabled by God to obey Him and do those works pleasing to Him (i.e. created to do good works), which we could not do before:

Romans 6:12-14, 19-22

**12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.
20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. **

Being under grace, however, does not mean we are no longer under any law:

1 Corinthians 9:20-21

**20To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law;
21to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law. **

Christians are no longer under “The Law.” Being “under grace”, they are now under the Law of Christ. What is the Law of Christ?

John 15:12

**12"This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you. **

James 2:8

**8If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, “YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF,” you are doing well. **

And by this law we shall be judged:

James 2:12-13

**12So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty.
13For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment. **

We see this judgement in action in Matthew 25. That’s why Christ said:

Luke 10:25-28

**25 And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”
26 He said to him, “What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?”
27 So he answered and said, “ ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’ and ‘your neighbor as yourself.’”
28 And He said to him, “You have answered rightly; do this and you will live.” **

Being under grace does not deliver us from our obligation to fulfill the moral law of God:

Romans 8:12-13

** 12So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh–
13for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.**

We have been enabled by God’s grace to believe and to do those works pleasing to Him and we will be held accountable on how we use the gifts He’s given us.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[ErikaA]

Careful about praising and exalting people, Erika. You might find yourself sorely disappointed again.

That you can praise and admire no one is far more disappointing.

But I wonder, since you seem so insistent on parsing faith and works, tell me why the Christian prostitute is less a Christian than you? Is she? Or is she just making a living in accordance with the upbringing and talents she was afforded? One can still love God and sin can’t they? And since all sin’s the same, one can engage in prostitution and still love God - right?

 

[sandusky]

That you can praise and admire no one is far more disappointing.

But I wonder, since you seem so insistent on parsing faith and works, tell me why the Christian prostitute is less a Christian than you? Is she? Or is she just making a living in accordance with the upbringing and talents she was afforded? One can still love God and sin can’t they? And since all sin’s the same, one can engage in prostitution and still love God - right?

A Christian prostitute is an oxymoron: a combination of contradictory or incongruous words
(as cruel kindness),

 

[Fisher]

That, my dear Brother in Christ, was a good dodge. True, only God knows our heart. Even we can delude ourselves into thinking that we are doing fine, when we are not. We can rationalize and avoid, but only God knows for sure.

Again, I point to Matthew 25. Sheep to heaven for doing, goats to hell for not. We are saved by grace. Grace leads us to faith. Faith without works is dead. Jesus told us to go out and make beleivers of all men. He said that we should let our light shine before all that they may see the good works that we do and give glory to God. True, works of the law are meaningless and works without faith are as well. But faith without works is worthless as well.

But by THE GRACE OF GOD I am what I am” (1st Corinthians 15:10). The Apostle Paul knew where his bread and butter came from. He knew Who had given him the wisdom and ability to write to the churches. Paul didn’t take anything for granted but gave God the benefit of the doubt for everything good in his life. God’s grace is God goodness, His doing for us what we certainly don’t deserve. We deserve to go straight to hell, but God has given us the gift of life and the opportunity to be saved—this is God’s grace. God’s grace is everything that God has ever done, is doing, or ever will do for us. We deserve nothing! When someone arrogantly claims that they are trying to impress God with their good works, they are unknowingly admitting that they know nothing concerning the grace of God. Salvation cannot be of grace and works as we have already learned from Romans 11:6. The grace of God does for us what we cannot do for ourselves, if we could save ourselves we wouldn’t need the grace of God.

All the love and kindness in the world will NOT get you into Heaven.

“But we are all as an unclean thing, and** ALL OUR RIGHTEOUSNESSES ARE AS FILTHY RAGS**; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away” (Isaiah 64:60).

Your money, kindness, sincerity, positive efforts, generosity and commitment mean nothing to God if you are trying to impress Him by your own self-righteousness. If you are trusting in the righteousness of Jesus Christ (realizing that you have no righteousness of your own), then all the good things you do as a Child of God are well pleasing unto the Lord.

Romans 3:10, “As it is written, There is none righteous, no, **not one.” **

Romans 10:10, “For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness…”

The Reason Why People Become Self-Righteous

The problem that most people face is that they look and compare themselves with other people instead of God’s Word. “For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are NOT WISE” (2nd Corinthians 10:12).

“Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as **OTHER MEN **are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted” (Luke 18:10-14). The Pharisee made the woeful mistake of comparing himself to **“OTHER MEN.” ** The publican had his heart set on God alone.

 

[ralphinal]

But by THE GRACE OF GOD I am what I am” (1st Corinthians 15:10). The Apostle Paul knew where his bread and butter came from. He knew Who had given him the wisdom and ability to write to the churches. Paul didn’t take anything for granted but gave God the benefit of the doubt for everything good in his life. God’s grace is God goodness, His doing for us what we certainly don’t deserve. We deserve to go straight to hell, but God has given us the gift of life and the opportunity to be saved—this is God’s grace. God’s grace is everything that God has ever done, is doing, or ever will do for us. We deserve nothing! When someone arrogantly claims that they are trying to impress God with their good works, they are unknowingly admitting that they know nothing concerning the grace of God. Salvation cannot be of grace and works as we have already learned from Romans 11:6. The grace of God does for us what we cannot do for ourselves, if we could save ourselves we wouldn’t need the grace of God.

All the love and kindness in the world will NOT get you into Heaven.

“But we are all as an unclean thing, and** ALL OUR RIGHTEOUSNESSES ARE AS FILTHY RAGS**; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away” (Isaiah 64:60).

Your money, kindness, sincerity, positive efforts, generosity and commitment mean nothing to God if you are trying to impress Him by your own self-righteousness. If you are trusting in the righteousness of Jesus Christ (realizing that you have no righteousness of your own), then all the good things you do as a Child of God are well pleasing unto the Lord.

Romans 3:10, “As it is written, There is none righteous, no, **not one.” **

Romans 10:10, “For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness…”

The Reason Why People Become Self-Righteous

The problem that most people face is that they look and compare themselves with other people instead of God’s Word. “For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are NOT WISE” (2nd Corinthians 10:12).

“Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as **OTHER MEN **are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted” (Luke 18:10-14). The Pharisee made the woeful mistake of comparing himself to **“OTHER MEN.” ** The publican had his heart set on God alone.

Somehow, I do not think that we are communicating. I do not disagree. I am asking if Jesus said that we will be judged based on deeds (Matt 25, story of sheep and goats), then must we DO deeds? There are two possibilties. Either Jesus is telling us that if our faith is not in action, it is not faith and we are not headed for salvation. OR, St. Paul is countering what Jesus says and creating a new theology. Take your pick

Jesus says that those who did not do when they had the opportunity go to hell. That is what it says. I am not saying that we EARN our way in. I am saying that if you do not, you go not.