Grace/works/Salvation - Protestant disconnect?

[moondweller]

Moondweller, is faith the same as wishful thinking? If not, how do they differ?

Your question is nonsensical to me (in light of salvation as revealed in Scripture and what I’ve written in my posts). I don’t see the relevance.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Good works are NOT guaranteed:

3His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. 4Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires. 5For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. 8For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.
10Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. **For if you do these things, you will never fall, **11and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
-2 Pt 1

20If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22Of them the proverbs are true: "A dog returns to its vomit,"and, “A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud.”
-2 Pt 2

 

[grandfather]

So then the “proof” has nothing to do with salvation. Or are you saying you must prove yourself “alive” through works before God and men before He saves you? Which translates into salvation not through faith but works.

You do not prove yourself. Your works prove you. Jesus did not go to the fig tree looking for a tree. He went looking for figs (works, fruits). He will come to you looking for fruits of faith. You will be judged by them. I am not saying this. Scripture says it. If these fruits are found in you, it will be He who is in you that does them. He says, “You can do nothing without me”. You are the vessel.

Let’s think about it from a different perspective. You are alive. You have life in you. Did you create the life in you? No! It was a gift. Nevertheless, it is your life. You can say, you had nothing to do with it. You did not create yourself, but your life is still yours, given to you and you will do with it what you will. Once you have this gift can you decide to reject it? Yes! You can commit the sin of suicide.

Salvation is a gift that is offered to mankind. Do we earn it or create it by what we do? No! It is a gift. What do we have to do with it? We accept it. We say yes to it. Saying yes is a work. It is something I do. But I can not even do that, say yes, without grace. If I could then salvation would be from God and me. It is pure grace, purely God’s doing. If I do accept, which is a work, then it is incumbent on me to do something further, also by grace, with the gift I have been given. So Jesus says, "to he who has more shall be given and he who has not even what he has shall be taken away. More what shall be given? Grace! Grace is not a stagnant thing. You don’t get some and sit on it and keep it in your pocket. You get it and use it and then get more, filled up, pressed down and spilling over. How do you get more? The same way you got the first batch. You keep saying yes. You keep asking for more. You live it. You do not say thanks for the token that is my pass to heaven. I’ll just stash that way and show it at heaven’s gate (bury the talent). Faith is dynamic. If you do not use it you lose it. If you use it it increases. Is it incumbent on you to use it and increase it? The alternative is burying it.

 

[grandfather]

Your question is nonsensical to me (in light of salvation as revealed in Scripture and what I’ve written in my posts). I don’t see the relevance.

If you are impenitent and think you have salvation it is wishful thinking and delusion.

 

[mikeledes]

And the following verses still stand:

Romans 2:6-7

6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

John 5:28-29

**Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. **

Galatians 6:7-10

Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life. 9 And let us not grow weary while doing good, for in due season we shall reap if we do not lose heart. 10 Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all, especially to those who are of the household of faith.

Revelation 2:26

26 And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations

1 Timothy 6:17-19

17 Command those who are rich in this present age not to be haughty, nor to trust in uncertain riches but in the living God, who gives us richly all things to enjoy. 18 Let them do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to give, willing to share, 19 storing up for themselves a good foundation for the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.

Matthew 25:31-36

**31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy[c] angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’ **

Luke 10:25-28

**25 And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”
26 He said to him, “What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?”
27 So he answered and said, “ ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’ and ‘your neighbor as yourself.’”
28 And He said to him, “You have answered rightly; do this and you will live.” **

1 Peter 1:16-17

,** 16 because it is written, “Be holy, for I am holy.”
17 And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear;**

God Bless,
Michael

 

[grandfather]

And the following verses still stand:

Romans 2:6-7

6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
God Bless,
Michael

There are these and many other scriptures that show works are necessary. At the same time scripture says salvation is a gift. Does scripture contradict itself? No! We need to understand it and reconcile what is difficult to understand. It can not be either or. It has to be both. We know we can not earn salvation. We know our spiritual lives must bear fruit. We know we have free will. God works in us if we allow his grace to work.

 

[ralphinal]

There are these and many other scriptures that show works are necessary. At the same time scripture says salvation is a gift. Does scripture contradict itself? No! We need to understand it and reconcile what is difficult to understand. It can not be either or. It has to be both. We know we can not earn salvation. We know our spiritual lives must bear fruit. We know we have free will. God works in us if we allow his grace to work.

I do love your posts. I have never understood how the Sola Fide people reconcile it with Jesus. No, we do get work our way into salvation, but we must work. If Paul seems to disagree with Jesus, we do not understand Paul. We are Christians, not Paulists

 

[Matt_G]

Hi all! I am in a dialogue with a protestant on this topic. Whether one can lose their salvation and so on. He denies free will and expounds on 1 John 3:9. Will someone please read this dialogue to correct and help me with this. Would be much appreciated. Here’s the site (Link removed per CAF Board Swarm Policy)

On this site I am Mopartillery. By opponent is Prupe7. Thanks again!

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Hi all! I am in a dialogue with a protestant on this topic. Whether one can lose their salvation and so on. He denies free will and expounds on 1 John 3:9. Will someone please read this dialogue to correct and help me with this. Would be much appreciated. Here’s the site (Link removed per CAF Board Swarm Policy)

On this site I am Mopartillery. By opponent is Prupe7. Thanks again!

I requires you to register an account, maybe you could just cut and past the most relevant passages here or in a new thread (in the apologetics section)?

 

[mozart-250]

I think much of the problem lies in the Catholic vs. Protestant understanding of justification. If Catholics understood justification to mean exclusively acquittal from one’s sins, then we would probably not be having this debate. However, Catholics understand justification to mean not only forgiveness of sin, but also the internal renewal of the person. They are not only legally rigteous before God, but also inwardly righteous as well. That is why we speak of justifcation as a process, becuase this inward aspect of justification is a process that lasts for the rest of a Christian’s life. This does not mean that when we initially receive the grace of justification that it is not sufficient for our salvation. If we were to die immediately after we receive that grace, Catholics believe we would go to heaven. However,as Catholics, we believe that we can grow in grace and that performing good works/obeying God is essential for our daily renewal.

God Bless,
Michael

And sometimes I wonder whether this whole disagreement keys off from different definitions of theological terms.

While I do believe that consistent and correct definitions are important for good communication, I also will not expend my energy arguing over my definition of theological terms.

Still the mortal sin issue and the light bulb salvation this implies is one of the handful of issues in Catholicism I find to be repellant.

 

[mozart-250]

One question I have wondered about is how this all works with children. I am surprised Catholics have not asked this question of us Protestants to be honest.

Imagine two six year old children at a Vacation Bible School praying to receive Christ. For the first child who has Christian parents, this serves as the starting point for this child’s Christian life that continues until death. The second child has parents that are not Christian and never steps in a church a gain.

Now I suppose some extreme folks would say the second child is still a Christian based on a prayer said at age six; but I imagine most would not.

Now when I have talked to Calvinists about folks that abandon their faith, they answer I have gotten is that they weren’t saved in the first place (maybe they never really repented).

If this is true in this case, then the difference in the eternal destinies of these two children is dependent upon the sincerity of prayers said at age six. Or else God is being very arbitrary.

But most Christians I know would explain what happened to child two as unfortunate because there was no follow-up. In other words, events and circumstances after the initial prayer are the governing factors as to the eternal status of child two.

Having a theology of Salvation that is credible and consistent when considering young children is problematic on all sides as far as I can see.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Having a theology of Salvation that is credible and consistent when considering young children is problematic on all sides as far as I can see.

Not at all. That is why Catholics have always Baptized infants, officially putting them in the Body of Christ through the infusion of Sanctifying grace in their soul. The infant is instantly saved and worthy of Heaven.

There is no guessing if a 6 yr old “got it right” when it came time for the “sinner’s prayer” during Sunday school.

 

[ralphinal]

One question I have wondered about is how this all works with children. I am surprised Catholics have not asked this question of us Protestants to be honest.

Imagine two six year old children at a Vacation Bible School praying to receive Christ. For the first child who has Christian parents, this serves as the starting point for this child’s Christian life that continues until death. The second child has parents that are not Christian and never steps in a church a gain.

Now I suppose some extreme folks would say the second child is still a Christian based on a prayer said at age six; but I imagine most would not.

Now when I have talked to Calvinists about folks that abandon their faith, they answer I have gotten is that they weren’t saved in the first place (maybe they never really repented).

If this is true in this case, then the difference in the eternal destinies of these two children is dependent upon the sincerity of prayers said at age six. Or else God is being very arbitrary.

But most Christians I know would explain what happened to child two as unfortunate because there was no follow-up. In other words, events and circumstances after the initial prayer are the governing factors as to the eternal status of child two.

Having a theology of Salvation that is credible and consistent when considering young children is problematic on all sides as far as I can see.

I like to use the example of Native Americans. They had no chance to learn of Christ for centuries. Are they doomed? Like the case of children, we have to leave it with the Mercy of God. He can provide them with the grace needed for their salvation, and the means to put that grace into action.

 

[mozart-250]

Not at all. That is why Catholics have always Baptized infants, officially putting them in the Body of Christ through the infusion of Sanctifying grace in their soul. The infant is instantly saved and worthy of Heaven.

There is no guessing if a 6 yr old “got it right” when it came time for the “sinner’s prayer” during Sunday school.

So you have two infants born the same time in the same hospital.

The first infant is infant baptized by its parents.

The second infant is not.

Now lets say a year later the two infants by some fluke are killed in a car accident. The first infant on basis of being baptized by his parent (not any choice the infant made) has eternal life. The second infant goes where? Is the term limbo?

And this doesn’t even cover aborted children who never have an opportunity for any baptism.

So you have God deciding the eternal destiny (heaven or hell) of people not on the basis of their own personal choices but on based on choices made by others.

…not that I want to get into an infant baptism debate because I can’t find anything in Scripture that prohibits the practice either. Just questioning the implications here…

And your explanation certainly is no worse than others I have heard on my side of the house.

 

[mozart-250]

I like to use the example of Native Americans. They had no chance to learn of Christ for centuries. Are they doomed? Like the case of children, we have to leave it with the Mercy of God. He can provide them with the grace needed for their salvation, and the means to put that grace into action.

I dunno is a good answer.

 

[ralphinal]

I dunno is a good answer.

See, I am not as obstinant and closed minded as my posts.

A truly merciful and just God cannot hold against us that which through no fault of our own we could have had no chance to learn. He can judge us by how we acted upon the grace in our lives. That much is simple.

Let’s look at the baptism of two infants post. Limbo was never a defined requirment of the faith. It was much like your “dunno” point. We knew that God could not condemn innocent children to hell. But Jesus said that we must be born again of water and the spirit. So, Limbo was an idea. Since then, the Church has come ot a better understanding of God’s mercy. We leave it to Him.

You further ask about those who have no chance to be baptised, same as the Native Americans. We have to leave it to God.

All of the innocents have one thing in common. If you accept total depravity, then you have to send them to hell. After all, nothing impure can enter the Kingdom of God.

 

[ErikaA]

Your question is nonsensical to me (in light of salvation as revealed in Scripture and what I’ve written in my posts). I don’t see the relevance.

Sorry I didn’t get back sooner. So much going on with the kids. Okay, here’s my point. When I say I have faith the sun will rise tomorrow, how do we differentiate that from me saying that I have faith my team will win the Superbowl? My faith in the former is apparent in all I do and say, in all my plans and expectations. Because I live as though tomorrow will come, it is clear that I truly believe it will. I am staking the present on it. As for the latter, it is less faith than simple wishful thinking. I will not risk my house or anything on it. I do not live my life as though “my faith in my team” is of great importance. It is a casual wish and Nothing more.

How then do we know our faith in God and Heaven is not merely wishful thinking? Do we live as though eternity is real, an inevitability or do we live as though this material world is all we’ll ever know? That is the question, isn’t it? It is not a question for God as He knows the answer. It is a question for us because when we lie to ourselves, we lie to Him. When we are wrapped in these lies, the delusions of grandeur that keep us from seeing true greatness, we cannot approach God. We could not even hope to see Him. How could we if He is holy and just, truth and light?

And so, that is the question we must keep always before ourselves – do I live a life that testifies to faith in God or do I live a life that testifies to a belief solely in the physical self? My works answer that question. My actions incinerate all the illusions and delusions and betray my true beliefs. To say they do not matter is to say that I can lie to myself and still approach God – it is to make God unholy and small, a kindly senile grandfather who would rather give us candy than offer us truth. Faith without works is only wishful thinking and to deny that is just plain self delusion.

 

[moondweller]

You do not prove yourself. Your works prove you.

Prove what? That I’m good enough by works for God to save me?

Jesus did not go to the fig tree looking for a tree. He went looking for figs (works, fruits). He will come to you looking for fruits of faith.

For what purpose? To see if I’m qualified to be saved? That’s salvation through works.

You will be judged by them.

Not according to Jesus in Jn. 3:18 & 5:24. And not according to Paul in Rom. 8:1.

If these fruits are found in you, it will be He who is in you that does them. He says, “You can do nothing without me”. You are the vessel.

I see this as referring to discipleship, not salvation. If He’s in me then I’m already saved.

Let’s think about it from a different perspective. You are alive. You have life in you. Did you create the life in you? No! It was a gift.

Well, generally speaking, yes. This truth pertains to all living things. But salvation is not so general, its specific.

Nevertheless, it is your life. You can say, you had nothing to do with it. You did not create yourself, but your life is still yours, given to you and you will do with it what you will. Once you have this gift can you decide to reject it? Yes! You can commit the sin of suicide.

It’s impossible for me to reject life. One cannot “reject life” by the means of suicide. That only ends your life in this earthly body. To be able to reject life one would need to possess the power of annihilation (non-existence, reversal of life). The life that’s gifted to the believer is eternal (everlasting).

Salvation is a gift that is offered to mankind. Do we earn it or create it by what we do? No! It is a gift. What do we have to do with it? We accept it. We say yes to it.

Yours is a different gospel than what I find in the Scriptures, or what was preached by the Apostles. I have yet to read where salvation occurs through accepting the “gift” of salvation. But one is gifted salvation (even eternal life and justification) when he puts his faith in Christ. The requirement is not to accept or reject “the gift,” but one is gifted upon belief in the gospel message of Christ.

Saying yes is a work. It is something I do. But I can not even do that, say yes, without grace.

You’re getting confused. “Grace” is the means by which God saves the one who believes: “For by grace you have been saved through faith…” (Eph. 2:8). When the Philippian jailer asked what he must do to be saved they responded, “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you shall be saved…” Notice they didn’t say “accept the gift.” The prerequisite was to “believe” and the gift would then be graciously bestowed.

So Jesus says, "to he who has more shall be given and he who has not even what he has shall be taken away. More what shall be given?

This is in the context of rewards, not salvation. Salvation is gifted (through faith), not rewarded.

Grace! Grace is not a stagnant thing. You don’t get some and sit on it and keep it in your pocket. You get it and use it and then get more, filled up, pressed down and spilling over. How do you get more? You keep saying yes. You keep asking for more. You live it. You do not say thanks for the token that is my pass to heaven. I’ll just stash that way and show it at heaven’s gate (bury the talent).

One is saved “by grace” through faith. Grace is the means (the agency) by which God Himself saves the one who believes. “Grace” means favor: apart from merit or recompense and totally undeserved.

Faith is dynamic. If you do not use it you lose it. If you use it it increases. Is it incumbent on you to use it and increase it? The alternative is burying it.

You seem to be mixing grace and faith. In respect to faith, there’s the faith of the “ungodly” through which God reckons as righteousness (Rom. 4:4-5). And then there’s practical faith by which the reckoned righteous are now to walk and live, this side of glory (Rom. 1:17; Gal. 3:11; 2 Cor. 5:7). Only the latter increases.

 

[moondweller]

If you are impenitent and think you have salvation it is wishful thinking and delusion.

Ah, “impenitent.” No wonder it didn’t click with me. “Penance” is strictly Catholic. I would say one is wishful thinking and delusional if he thinks works will make him acceptable before God.

 

[ralphinal]

MD,
Please explain Matt 25:31-46. Jesus says that we are judged by what we did and did not do when we had the chance.

Please explain Matt 7:21, not everyone who says “Lord, Lord” but DOES the will of the father

Please explain Matt 19:16-22 you must keep all the commandments but to obtain perfection, you must GIVE up all you have and follow Jesus.

All of these look like works to me.