Grace/works/Salvation - Protestant disconnect?

[grandfather]

Here’s what you stated above:Here’s what Jesus Himself said:John 3:17-18 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."The Apostolic gospel does not stray from nor add to Christ’s words.

And here is what Jesus stated. Unless you show mercy you will not receive mercy. When I was hungry, thristy, in prison, naked, and sick you comforted me or you did not. If you do not take up your cross you are not worthy of me. You search the scriptures thinking that in them you will find eternal life…but I know the love of God is not in you.

You keep quoting the same scripture and ignoring the rest. They have to all be true. I hear you again and again. You have to believe in Jesus and you have to show mercy, love your neighbor and God, be generous with Lazarus or end up in hell. The motive for doing these things is not to avoid hell, or earn heaven, but love. It is the love of God He puts in you and that is God Himself indwelling you and acting in you and unless you have it you are dead.

I have to unsubscribe to this list, because it is getting repetitive and going in circles, nowhere.

 

[sandusky]

ErikaA:

I am leaning toward Cathlocism because Protestants cannot successfully explain to me why a prostitute cannot be a Christian if faith alone saves. You think this is ludicrous and yes, it’s an extreme example of sin, but again, Protestants fail to explain to me the moral difference between prostitution and lying or gossiping. Is one more sinful than the other?

I gave you an explanation a few days ago, when I pointed out that you were arguing against the antinomian position; perhaps you’ll take time to re-read that post.

Here you find writings on the five the solas of the Reformation, and here you’ll find writings specifically on the subject of sola fide.

Also, you’re misunderstanding that salvation, according to scripture, is by grace alone; it is justification that is by faith alone, as Luther rightly translated Rom 3:28, in his German Bible.

(continued)

 

[sandusky]

(continued from post #262)

You having probably never been told that Luther was not alone in his “addition” of the word “alone” in that verse, as the Roman Catholic writer Joseph A. Fitzmyer points out:At 3:28 Luther introduced the adv. “only” into his translation of Romans (1522), “alleyn durch den Glauben” (WAusg 7.38); cf. Aus der Bibel 1546, “alleine durch den Glauben” (WAusg, DB 7.39); also 7.3-27 (Pref. to the Epistle). See further his Sendbrief vom Dolmetschen, of 8 Sept. 1530 (WAusg 30.2 [1909], 627-49; “On Translating: An Open Letter” [LuthW 35.175-202]). Although “alleyn/alleine” finds no corresponding adverb in the Greek text, two of the points that Luther made in his defense of the added adverb were that it was demanded by the context and that sola was used in the theological tradition before him.

Robert Bellarmine listed eight earlier authors who used sola (Disputatio de controversiis: De justificatione 1.25 [Naples: G. Giuliano, 1856], 4.501-3):

Origen, Commentarius in Ep. ad Romanos, cap. 3 (PG 14.952).

Hilary, Commentarius in Matthaeum 8:6 (PL 9.961).

Basil, Hom. de humilitate 20.3 (PG 31.529C).

Ambrosiaster, In Ep. ad Romanos 3.24 (CSEL 81.1.119): “sola fide justificati sunt dono Dei,” through faith alone they have been justified by a gift of God; 4.5 (CSEL 81.1.130).

John Chrysostom, Hom. in Ep. ad Titum 3.3 (PG 62.679 [not in Greek text]).

Cyril of Alexandria, In Joannis Evangelium 10.15.7 (PG 74.368 [but alludes to Jas 2:19]).

Bernard, In Canticum serm. 22.8 (PL 183.881): “solam justificatur per fidem,” is justified by faith alone.

Theophylact, Expositio in ep. ad Galatas 3.12-13 (PG 124.988).

To these eight Lyonnet added two others (Quaestiones, 114-18):

Theodoret, Affectionum curatio 7 (PG 93.100; ed. J. Raeder [Teubner], 189.20-24).

Thomas Aquinas, Expositio in Ep. I ad Timotheum cap. 1, lect. 3 (Parma ed., 13.588): “Non est ergo in eis [moralibus et caeremonialibus legis] spes iustificationis, sed in sola fide, Rom. 3:28: Arbitramur justificari hominem per fidem, sine operibus legis” (Therefore the hope of justification is not found in them [the moral and ceremonial requirements of the law], but in faith alone, Rom 3:28: We consider a human being to be justified by faith, without the works of the law). Cf. In ep. ad Romanos 4.1 (Parma ed., 13.42a): “reputabitur fides eius, scilicet sola sine operibus exterioribus, ad iustitiam”; In ep. ad Galatas 2.4 (Parma ed., 13.397b): “solum ex fide Christi” [Opera 20.437, b41]).

See further:

Theodore of Mopsuestia, In ep. ad Galatas (ed. H. B. Swete), 1.31.15.

Marius Victorinus (ep. Pauli ad Galatas (ed. A. Locher), ad 2.15-16: “Ipsa enim fides sola iustificationem dat-et sanctificationem” (For faith itself alone gives justification and sanctification); In ep. Pauli Ephesios (ed. A. Locher), ad 2.15: “Sed sola fides in Christum nobis salus est” (But only faith in Christ is salvation for us).

Augustine, De fide et operibus, 22.40 (CSEL 41.84-85): “licet recte dici possit ad solam fidem pertinere dei mandata, si non mortua, sed viva illa intellegatur fides, quae per dilectionem operatur” (Although it can be said that God’s commandments pertain to faith alone, if it is not dead [faith], but rather understood as that live faith, which works through love”). Migne Latin Text: Venire quippe debet etiam illud in mentem, quod scriptum est, In hoc cognoscimus eum, si mandata ejus servemus. Qui dicit, Quia cognovi eum, et mandata ejus non servat, mendax est, et in hoc veritas non est (I Joan. II, 3, 4). Et ne quisquam existimet mandata ejus ad solam fidem pertinere: quanquam dicere hoc nullus est ausus, praesertim quia mandata dixit, quae ne multitudine cogitationem spargerent [Note: [Col. 0223] Sic Mss. Editi vero, cogitationes parerent.], In illis duobus tota Lex pendet et Prophetae (Matth. XXII, 40): licet recte dici possit ad solam fidem pertinere Dei mandata, si non mortua, sed viva illa intelligatur fides, quae per dilectionem operatur; tamen postea Joannes ipse aperuit quid diceret, cum ait: Hoc est mandatum ejus, ut credamus nomini Filii ejus Jesu Christi, et diligamns invicem (I Joan. III, 23) See De fide et operibus, Cap. XXII, §40, PL 40:223.

Source: Joseph A. Fitzmyer Romans, A New Translation with introduction and Commentary, The Anchor Bible Series (New York: Doubleday, 1993) 360-361.

If you’re seeking justification through sacerdotalism, which, IMO, is nothing more than replacement theology, or supersessionism; (see also the book, Israel and the Church), and the resurrecting, and downsizing of the OT ritual works system) then swim the Tiber now.

 

[OnlineHarvest]

Grace, what is it?

Excuse my broad brushing here but I have listened to many protestant pastors with regard to what I am about to say. Most Protestants, including pastors don’t understand grace. It seems like their perception of it is that God just decides when we repent to overlook our sins. They seem to dissociate sanctification from grace as though it just kind of happens maybe with the help of the holy spirit but they seem to have a disconnect between grace and the cross as if our justification is tied to the cross, but any sanctification involving works after we become “saved” are kind of hanging out there in limbo and they don’t really seem to know how to handle them.

What? That is not an informed viewpoint of what we actually believe. The true Protestant belief on justification and sanctification is that you cannot have one without the other. The person who is justified will be sanctified. The person who is not sanctified proves they were never justified. We, like James, do not have a problem saying that a faith without works is dead. That is not hard to believe.

Grace is fully admitted when they become “saved” but after that point they seem to have a hard time reconciling grace with the life of the Christian. They will say for instance that works are evidence of salvation but not the cause of it.

If that is what you heard, then why misrepresent us and say, as you did previously, that there is a disassociation between the two? You may disagree with us, but we firmly proclaim that they are well connected, as I have said.

I would rather say that works are a completion of grace, i.e. we are moved by grace to act. Our actions are Christ working in and through us (see Eph 3:20-21) and we could not do them on our own. “without him I can do nothing but in him I can do ALL THINGS! This overcomes the difficulty of the alleged dichotomy between James and Paul (along with the fact that works of the law are not the same as works of charity, i.e. Is 1). Then we can see where romans 2:4-8 comes in where we read that we are judged by our works. The good on to everlasting glory, while those who do evil on to everlasting damnation. Also in this regard it is good to reflect on the story of the sheep and the goats in Matt 25. It is the doers of the word and not just the hearers that are saved we are told elsewhere.

Grace is the initial cause of our salvation. That unmerited favor granted by God. We are saved by grace through faith, which Scripture says is “not of yourselves” - even faith is a gift. And the following verse tells us that even our works which we walk in were “prepared beforehand that we should walk in them”

They also seem to have a disconnect between the cross and the application of it to our lives.

False and a misrepresentation.
We preach that a true Christian ought to pick up their cross and deny themself daily. Why you have not heard this after hearing “many” preachers might tell me you haven’t, are lying, or simply misrepresenting us.

Thus they continue to use the passage “It is finished” against Catholicism in an unwarranted fashion, neglecting to note that they have just as much of a problem if there is not such a thing as a life of grace in declaring the day that they were saved. It was not 2000 years ago on the cross, though that is when the grace was earned. Grace in my view is not just God being nice and forgetting about our sins. It is God working in and through the world to bring about salvation. There are many forms of grace including natural grace, sanctifying grace, actual grace.

This separation of sanctification and works and grace that I perceive allows them to continue in their denial of purgatory as well, which is primarily about sanctification. They don’t seem to understand or want to understand that God’s grace is an ongoing thing and that it can be used at the moment of death or in some time period afterward to complete the sanctification that is not guaranteed to be completed in this life, so that one might enter heaven.

Any protestants care to take a shot at what I have said?

God Bless

You raise too many issues. You need to stick to a few if possible because the replies just get longer and longer.

But from what I’ve read, it appears you have very little knowledge of what we believe and more knowledge of what people have told you to believe about our doctrines.

 

[moondweller]

You keep quoting the same scripture and ignoring the rest.

I don’t ignore the rest. But the verses I quote are where one must first begin. Ever notice that you ignore those verses completely and go on and on about what one must do in order to be accepted, in order to avoid judgment?

I have to unsubscribe to this list, because it is getting repetitive and going in circles, nowhere.

That’s because you can’t go anywhere with works except in circles. Unless one first believes “it is finished” he’ll never cross the “finish line” himself. We’re called to a faith walk: “But the righteous man shall live by faith.” And that faith begins with believing Christ’s words on the cross: “it is finished.”

 

[Bluebutterfies]

I don’t ignore the rest. But the verses I quote are where one must first begin. Ever notice that you ignore those verses completely and go on and on about what one must do in order to be accepted, in order to avoid judgment?That’s because you can’t go anywhere with works except in circles. Unless one first believes “it is finished” he’ll never cross the “finish line” himself. We’re called to a faith walk: “But the righteous man shall live by faith.” And that faith begins with believing Christ’s words on the cross: “it is finished.”

Protestant theology does not view the Bible as a whole (and how could they when Martin Luther threw out whole books of the Bible that corresponded with Catholic theology. Many Protestants don’t even know that he did that.) All through the Bible (Old and New Testament), God forgives sins WHEN people REPENTED, however that repentance was more than lip service and sin was always shown to have consequences, even to the third and fourth generations. Jesus Himself said that you will know a tree by its FRUITS. He exemplified this by cursing an actual tree that did not produce any actual fruit. He also told someone to go and sin no more or else something worse might happen. Faith without works is dead faith. Exorcised demons return to an empty house with even more demons. A sinner returns to his sin like dog returns to his vomit, etc., etc., etc. The Bible also says that upon two or three witnesses, a fact is established, then why are words and sentences totally separated in Protestant theology? To pick and choose what you want to believe? The Bible is not an idol unto itself and the wording of each different Bible book/phrase only points to and gives us a glimpse of a whole God.

 

[moondweller]

Protestant theology does not view the Bible as a whole (and how could they when Martin Luther threw out whole books of the Bible that corresponded with Catholic theology.

Specifically, what “Catholic” doctrines are thrown out?

All through the Bible (Old and New Testament), God forgives sins WHEN people REPENTED, however that repentance was more than lip service and sin was always shown to have consequences, even to the third and fourth generations.

But the gospel that Peter proclaimed stressed faith:Acts 10:43 "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins."And Paul proclaimed the forgiveness of sins through Christ alone:Acts 13:38 "Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you,

Jesus Himself said that you will know a tree by its FRUITS. He exemplified this by cursing an actual tree that did not produce any actual fruit.

The fig tree represented national Israel, to whom He was sent (Matt. 15:24). The nation was “broken off” (temporarily) for their unbelief (see Rom. 11:20). Paul then immediately states to Gentile believers: “…and you stand only by your faith.”

But faith begins with trusting in Christ’s redemption words: “It is finished.” Salvation is not a process. It’s a whole gift graciously given upon belief.

 

[c659smith]

I’m confused by all this debate on works and faith. As a Roman Catholic they go hand in hand. I can not receive salvation without believing in Christ and when I believe and try my best to follow Jesus I am mindful of my actions and thus poof there is the works!!

What were the Beatitudes about, what you do onto others you do onto me?

Visit the imprisoned, feeding the Hungry, etc… this is in the Bible and even the King James version. I think they are works.

When Jesus spoke to the Apostles and said " Those sins you forgive are forgiven and those you retain are retained" This is in the King James version. So this would contradict that just believing is enough. Repent and turn away from sin, go sin no more, or make a good effort. To sleep with a divorced woman (remarry) or the man that divorces and causes this also commits adultry. Do you deny what God has joined no man can put assunder but yet repent means something different then I guess If you divorce and re marry, do you have sexual relations? can you promise not to? would you not be in communion with Christ? Are you not refusing repentance? Promising not to or try not to sin again

When Jesus spoke with the rich man and said it is " easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter heaven. What do you think Jesus was saying? Because a rich man has diffulculty doing works, has two Gods one being money, and seldom gives of himself but rather to work towards making more money. Do I go to Mass/Church or do I work on Sunday, force others to work. Remember keep holy the Lords day. –

Remember the Good News ( Bible) was the result of Jesus to the only Christian church for a thousand years ( Catholics).

The King James version was the resulted of violence. Through not getting ones way.The beheading of Catherine of Aragon. Removing sections/books to suit one’s personal needs or comforts.Remeber there is nothing added just removed.

Luther changed very little of the Bible however through the years Books were removed in order to sanctify the changes through the years.
Luther still adored Mary, believed in the communion of Saints, Luther after all was a Catholic Monk.

 

[c659smith]

I have a question?

Where does the word protest–ant come from. What does it Mean Protest–ant.

I think it is a protest of Sacred Scripture(Bible), Sacred Traditions that Christ followed as there is nothing in the Cathechisnm that cannot be referenced to in scripture, and Sacred Teachings remember the Apostles not only converted but taught others how to baptize, how to hear confessions, how to annoit.

-Matthew 28:18-20. Jesus did not say He would support schism or reform or protest, He said He would be with THIS Church until the End–I am a Catholic

Come back to the Holy (by Christ) not man
Come back to the Catholic and universal we are truly (one body)
Come back to the Apostles the ones who were taught by Jesus(Apostolic).

This was repeated numerous times in scripture.
This is my body and this is my blood
My body is true food and my blood is true drink Whoever eats my body and drinks my blood shall have everlasting life.
What did Jesus say for those that do not drink his blood or eat his body or do you deny Sacred Scripture.

The bible also states Church not Churches. Can the Protestant religion with stand any more splits. How many different Baptist churches are there.

I guess if you do not like the church or it’s teachings you just go to another church because of the pressures or teachings of that paticular church. I do not think that is what Jesus meant when he said take up your cross and follow me. Change your Church because I want gay marriage, I want to divorce, there rules are to conservative or stingent. Sounds like the camel trying to get through the eye of the needle. I think the camel has a better chance in receiving salvation

 

[moondweller]

I have a question?

Where does the word protest–ant come from. What does it Mean Protest–ant.

Germany was made up of many small states. And many princes with their small states were won to Luther’s cause. By 1540 all N. Germany had become “Lutheran.” Pope Paul III urged the Emperor Charles V to prorceed against them, and offered him an army. He declared the war a Crusade and offered Indulgences to all who would take part. The war lasted from 1546 to 1555, ending with the Peace of Augsburg, by which Lutherans won legal recognition of their faith.

The name “Protestant” began with The Diet of Spires (1529) at which RCs were in the majority and ruled that Catholics could teach their religion in Lutheran states, but forbade Lutheran teaching in Catholic states in Germany. The Lutheran Princes made formal protest and from that time on were known as “Protestants.” So it originally applied to Lutherans but it then applied to all protesting against Papal usurpation, including all Evangelical Christians.

I think the camel has a better chance in receiving salvation

How does one receive salvation? That’s the core issue.

 

[Bluebutterfies]

Specifically, what “Catholic” doctrines are thrown out?But the gospel that Peter proclaimed stressed faith:Acts 10:43 "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins."And Paul proclaimed the forgiveness of sins through Christ alone:Acts 13:38 "Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you,The fig tree represented national Israel, to whom He was sent (Matt. 15:24). The nation was “broken off” (temporarily) for their unbelief (see Rom. 11:20). Paul then immediately states to Gentile believers: “…and you stand only by your faith.”
But faith begins with trusting in Christ’s redemption words: “It is finished.” Salvation is not a process. It’s a whole gift graciously given upon belief.

You just proved my point. Catholicism takes the whole Bible into account. Protestant theology takes the more “positive” and easier versus and ignores the rest.

The Bible also says that demons belief Jesus is the Christ and that it doesn’t save them. Jesus said not to be fooled, that only a good tree produces good fruit and also not to expect good fruit from brambles. Jesus will come back at the end of time (and of our individual lives) to judge us according to the state we are in when we die. Paul warned us to FINISH the race.

 

[c659smith]

So the Devil Lucifer I am sure you agree beieves in Jesus Christ that he was born, suffered, died, and was buried.

That Jesus is God and is the Supreme power as Lucifer must relent to God.

So is Lucifer saved? I don’t thionk so.

If I believe in Jesus Christ as my savior but choose to do bad works, deeds and sin anyway will I gain salvation even though I do not repent. Which means to turn away from sin.

If I ignore the hungry, ignore the dying and sick, do not help the lame, will I gain salvation?

I am reminded of a verse in the bible where someone relentlessly is knocking on the door of heaven and Jesus calls out I do not know you go away./ Remember you will know we are Christians by our love for one another so without the works are we truly Christians?

The verses that were quoted below were only parts they did not finish the section. Read on and you will see the light.

and while we are quoting scriptue let us not forget Romans chapter 13 Obedience to Authority. I think the protestant churches ignore this chapter or forgot to take it out as they are not obedient in their own churches such the numerous splits among the denominations let alone when they split from the Catholic Church.

Come back home and receive the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Jesus through the Eucharist. Do you not feel empty even after the service in the protestant churches?

For who eats my body and drinks my blood shall have eternal salvation and who ever does not------You complete

 

[whatisthetruth]

Hi all,

I wanted to let you all know that I am wrong for coming to this site and sending a “I am right you are wrong” message.

I ask you to forgive me if I have said anything that may ave caused hurt feelings.

I will no longer be posting on this thread. It is obvious that we see God’s will through different “lenses”

We can debate our viewpoints and beliefs from know until whenever and nothing will change.

Quite frankly, I realize debating here is just like a chess match which ends in a stalemate. A lot of time and effort and the end result is no different from where the game started.

Having said that. I believe the answer lies within Jesus and what His will is.

I believe in order to settle a debate…Jesus, (the mediator), would encourage us first to see our similiarities and not our differences. I do not see any other better way to accompish God’s will for us and that is to have a one united church body in Jesus’ name.

That is why I started a “tired of debating lets agree on Jesus” thread. In that thread, Mark A was an example of let us first see our similiarities.

In closing thank you all for your feedback. It has been a wonderful learning experience about why everyone believes in the way they do.

I believe each and everyone of you are a champion in God’s eyes.

My prayer is that the champion which God designed in you may be realized one day as God works His miracles in your lives.

God bless you all,

truth

 

[DLC]

Here goes. The shot I will take is very clearly taught in the Bible Rom 11:6
6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.
NASU

Grace and works cannot coexist togther. They both cancel each other out.

 

[peary]

The Catholic position is quite simple: we are saved by Graced alone; we are justified in the sight of God by our works.

 

[c659smith]

DLC

Even the demons believe—and shudder" (v. 19). People ask, "What kind of faith do demons have?

we do not perform good works in order to enter a state of justification. The Council of Trent stated that “nothing which precedes justification, whether faith or works, merits the grace of justification” (Decree on Justification 8).

it is impossible for an unjustified person to do supernaturally good works, since these are based on the virtue of charity (supernatural love), which an unjustified person does not have. Good works therefore flow from our reception of justification; they do not cause us to enter a state of justification. Good works increase the righteousness we are given at justification and please God, who promises to give us supernatural rewards on the last day, including the gift of eternal life (Rom. 2:6-7, Gal. 6:6-10).

Look I can debat your point but beleive what is written above will answer your questions and misconceptions of the Catholic Church.

I will leave you with thought

Paul and James, then, are at one. Paul shows this when he speaks of “faith working through love” (Gal. 5:6); and in Romans he is even more specific when he says that God “will render to every man according to his works” (Rom. 2:6).

CHAP. VII.–18. “Let your light,”[11] says He, “so shine before men, that
they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.”

 

[moondweller]

DLC

Even the demons believe—and shudder" (v. 19). People ask, "What kind of faith do demons have?

It doesn’t say demons “believe,” i.e., the gospel message of Christ. There’s no salvation program for demons.

we do not perform good works in order to enter a state of justification. The Council of Trent stated that “nothing which precedes justification, whether faith or works, merits the grace of justification” (Decree on Justification 8).

This is qualified as “initial” justification by Catholicism. That’s not the justification revealed in Scripture, that which is gifted by God and wholly based on “the redemption which is in Christ Jesus” (i.e., the cross of Christ, Rom. 3:24). Trent’s justification does not conform to Biblical justification.

it is impossible for an unjustified person to do supernaturally good works, since these are based on the virtue of charity (supernatural love), which an unjustified person does not have.

All men can do acts of charity. However no man is ever saved, justified or reconciled to God by them. Men are “reckoned” righteous (righteousness) by God upon their faith in Christ (Rom. 3:26).

Good works increase the righteousness we are given at justification and please God, who promises to give us supernatural rewards on the last day, including the gift of eternal life (Rom. 2:6-7, Gal. 6:6-10).

The true believer is imputed Christ’s righteousness at the time of personal belief in Christ (2 Cor. 5:21; Rom. 3:22; 5:19). Such righteousness is totally foreign and wholly divine. It can neither increase nor decrease (the righteousness of Christ is perfect). Can you show me in Scripture where it is taught that righteousness increases?

Paul and James, then, are at one. Paul shows this when he speaks of “faith working through love” (Gal. 5:6); and in Romans he is even more specific when he says that God “will render to every man according to his works” (Rom. 2:6).

“Faith working through love” is addressed to those who have already been reckoned righteous. You take Rom. 2:6 out of context. Paul goes on to state that both justification and eternal life are gifts of God upon belief in Christ alone (Rom 3:24, 6:23)."…for ALL sinned and are falling short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus"

“For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life IN Christ Jesus our Lord.“To believe this is the faith through which God Himself justifies the “ungodly” (Rom. 4:5).”…his faith (not works) is reckoned as righteousness.”

 

[c659smith]

Moon dweller

I will get you the text concerning Jesus speaking of demons having belief in God but the main point here is Faith alone. I do not see how in reading the bible unless out of context one can come to that decision.

Clearly Jesus said to perforn many works and as such feeding the hungry, clothing the poor, visiting the sick etc… for what you do onto them you do unto me.

Jesus states that they will know we are christian by our love of one another and I do not know about you but with some people that can be alot of work on my part.

All Paul’s teaching comes down to this: Our own works can never justify us, but works that grow out of faith in Christ are part of our justification. Paul who wrote Galatians also wrote Philippians, wherein Paul says, "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling

If you look carefully at Paul’s writings, you will notice that he never says that our righteousness comes from faith alone—only that it comes from faith apart from works.

Romans 3:28 is a key verse in the differences between traditional Protestants and Catholics. You will notice that Paul says a man is justified by faith (pistei in Greek). When Martin Luther translated the letter to the Romans into German in the sixteenth century, he added the word alone —but alone is not in the original Greek text. The phrase “faith alone” does occur in the New Testament: one time, in James 2:24. There the inspired apostle denies that justification is from faith alone. Let me quote it: “You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.”

 

[moondweller]

c659smith:

I will get you the text concerning Jesus speaking of demons having belief in God

Unless you can show me where the gospel message of Christ is presented to demons to believe, then there is no need to get back with me on demons and belief.

but the main point here is Faith alone. I do not see how in reading the bible unless out of context one can come to that decision.

To the contrary, reading the Bible brings one to that conclusion. The issue here is the same one James makes: A true faith vs. a “said” faith. It’s James you take out of context and it’s Paul’s clear teaching on justification that you ignore.

Clearly Jesus said to perforn many works and as such feeding the hungry, clothing the poor, visiting the sick etc… for what you do onto them you do unto me.

This was said in the context of His sheep (Matt. 25:40), who are saved (Jo. 10:9); whom He knows, calls them by name, and they know Him (Jo. 10:3, 14); hear His voice (Jo. 10:28), and for whom He gave His life (Jo. 10:11).John 10:27-29 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given {them} to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch {them} out of the Father’s hand.

Jesus states that they will know we are christian by our love of one another and I do not know about you but with some people that can be alot of work on my part.

Why? In your previous message (# 276) you stated that it’s “supernatural love.” Why then should it take so much work on your part? Nevertheless, Jesus was not teaching on justification but identity. In fact, He never taught on the doctrine of justification. That was reserved primarily for Paul to be understood AFTER Christ’s redemptive work on the cross on which divine justification through faith alone is based (Rom. 3:24). Don’t mix the contexts.

All Paul’s teaching comes down to this: Our own works can never justify us, but works that grow out of faith in Christ are part of our justification.

He states nothing of the sort. But he clearly teaches that justification is a “gift by his grace,” not through any kind of works on our part (supernatural or natural), but directly “through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus” (i.e., Christ’s work on the cross, Rom. 3:24).…even the righteousness of God which comes through faith in Jesus" (Rom. 3:22).You see, Luther finally understood (rather, believed) the teachings of Paul on justification. And when he did the religious blinders were removed from his eyes and he was able to clearly see the glory of God’s infinite grace through Christ alone and Him crucified. Though for years he was deeply embedded in a religious environment (system), prior to him believing Paul’s teachings on justification the cross, as the only means by which God justifies the “ungodly,” was foolishness to him.

But after putting his faith in Christ alone Luther finally understood what Paul had written to his church (the Book of Romans). That it was Abraham’s faith (not his works) that was credited (reckoned) to him by God as righteousness (see Gen. 15:6; cf. Rom. 4:3-5). And not only Abraham but all who are of the faith of Abraham.Rom 4:16 “For this reason {it is} by faith, in order that {it may be} in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,”

Rom 4:23-25 "Now not for his sake only was it written that it (righteousness) was credited to him, but for our sake also, to whom it will be credited, as those who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead, {He} who was delivered over because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification.And Paul’s concluding words resonated in Luther’s heart: Rom. 5:1 "Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ."After years of being a “Roman” Catholic he finally understood Paul’s ancient teaching to the Roman church: That divine justification was through faith alone, in Christ alone. You see, for the first time in his whole religious experience Luther turned form self and put his faith in Christ alone. And not until then was he able to understand Paul’s teaching on justification to his church.

Continued next post:

 

[moondweller]

From previous Post:

Paul who wrote Galatians also wrote Philippians, wherein Paul says, "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling

Phil 2:12 "So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;"But not “for” salvation. In context (“So then”) he was exhorting the Philippian believers to have amongst themselves the same attitude that was in Jesus; that although He was God He emptied Himself and took on the form of a bondservant (Phil. 2:1-9). It was with this kind of humility (controlled by God) that the Philippian church was to work “outwardly,” i.e., unto maturity, the salvation that was already theirs by serving one another.

If you look carefully at Paul’s writings, you will notice that he never says that our righteousness comes from faith alone—only that it comes from faith apart from works.

Which is tantamount to faith alone. Paul’s gospel message to the Gentile world was Jesus Christ and Him crucified (1 Cor. 1:23; 2:2). And through Christ crucified God is free to justify the ungodly through faith in Him alone.

The age of Law ended at the cross (Rom. 10:4). We’re now in an age of faith alone based on promise:Gal 3:22-26 "But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. But before faith came (i.e, this age of faith alone), we (Jews) were kept in custody under law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. Therefore the Law has become our tutor {to lead us} to Christ (i.e., faith in Him alone), so that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus."This is pure unadulterated Pauline teaching on justification. The faith which trusts in Christ alone is “the faith” through which God Himself justifies the ungodly. Only after years of religion and self-struggle did Luther finally come to this glorious realization. And like Paul, he entered into “peace with God” (Rom. 5:1).