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TheAmazingGrace
Guest
Exactly what I was thinking.
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Tis_Bearself
Patron
I can understand being put off by what Fr. Pavone did. It was a bit extreme, and unfortunately calls to my mind the old Protestant scare stories about Catholics sacrificing babies, as well as being a likely wrong use of an altar.Wow. So, basically, the body of a fetus can be used to make a point.
I am dropping the mic here now. I am thoroughly disgusted and perturbed,
However, I would hope you are even more “thoroughly disgusted and perturbed” by the taking of human lives through abortion. The taking of another’s life without a good reason (self-defense, the defense of one’s country or family) is the worst sin, bar none. It is beyond any sort of inanimate object sin.
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Golightlyholly
Guest
I am not condoning Fr Pavones actions nor did I mean to offend you. It is however something so horrendous and an injust that it needs to be addressed.
I was made aware of abortion when I was 8 years old. I saw the picture of a dismemebered fetus and small plastic fetus. It has strongly influenced me ever since.
Every child reacts differently but it is after all the end of a life.
Should children be kept from realities of world?
No, but I agree that it needs to be done gently and with care but they need to know what it is. The same goes for pornography specially when children get younger and younger.
Pornography exposure in Children
I think normalising abortion does no favour to the Pro-choice movement. What choice is it after all?
The problem is that once you see abortion for what it is you cannot find any morality in it.
I was made aware of abortion when I was 8 years old. I saw the picture of a dismemebered fetus and small plastic fetus. It has strongly influenced me ever since.
Every child reacts differently but it is after all the end of a life.
Should children be kept from realities of world?
No, but I agree that it needs to be done gently and with care but they need to know what it is. The same goes for pornography specially when children get younger and younger.
Pornography exposure in Children
I think normalising abortion does no favour to the Pro-choice movement. What choice is it after all?
The problem is that once you see abortion for what it is you cannot find any morality in it.
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TheAmazingGrace
Guest
You can address the immorality of abortion to kids without showing them pictures of dismembered babies. Similar to how we can teach kids about the evils of ISIS without showing them the propaganda snuff films.It is however something so horrendous and an injust that it needs to be addressed.
Tis_Bearself
Patron
I really don’t buy “think of the children” arguments for keeping every kind of graphic image of evil suppressed. Too often, the children are used as the excuse when it’s really adults who don’t want to look and face up to what is going on.
if it’s a matter of graphic speech on private property where children might be, such as a school or a church, then the owners or administrators of the school or church have the right to remove the speaker from their private property. We do not however have a right to suppress all such speech in a public place on the basis that a child or someone else who is sensitive might be passing by.
if it’s a matter of graphic speech on private property where children might be, such as a school or a church, then the owners or administrators of the school or church have the right to remove the speaker from their private property. We do not however have a right to suppress all such speech in a public place on the basis that a child or someone else who is sensitive might be passing by.
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TheLittleLady
Guest
Fr Pavone is celebrated by a fringe group. Sadly, he appears to have lost his way. Things began to go off the rails a few years ago, http://canonlawmadeeasy.com/2012/11/21/clerical-incardination-priests-for-life-part-i/
Personally, more than a decade ago, I attended a Diocesan event where he was the keynote speaker. He was selling a DVD that had footage of the “aborted baby” that appears to be the same one used in the election desecration stunt. (This DVD has since vanished from the internet. The title of the DVD is “The Procedure”)
At the dinner that evening, I was appalled. When we sat down for the banquet, in the middle of our dinner plate, was a graphic photo of an “abortion victim”. This was a room full of people who were so devoted to pro-life work that they had shelled out $$ for this banquet. The graphic image was wrong in that setting for so many ways. First, it was poor taste, this was a banquet table - not a sidewalk newsstand. Second, talk about preaching to the choir.
The desecration of that Altar was the final straw for many people.
I pray for Fr Pavone every day, that he is able to again see the forest instead of one tree.
Personally, more than a decade ago, I attended a Diocesan event where he was the keynote speaker. He was selling a DVD that had footage of the “aborted baby” that appears to be the same one used in the election desecration stunt. (This DVD has since vanished from the internet. The title of the DVD is “The Procedure”)
At the dinner that evening, I was appalled. When we sat down for the banquet, in the middle of our dinner plate, was a graphic photo of an “abortion victim”. This was a room full of people who were so devoted to pro-life work that they had shelled out $$ for this banquet. The graphic image was wrong in that setting for so many ways. First, it was poor taste, this was a banquet table - not a sidewalk newsstand. Second, talk about preaching to the choir.
The desecration of that Altar was the final straw for many people.
I pray for Fr Pavone every day, that he is able to again see the forest instead of one tree.
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TheLittleLady
Guest
The Rubrics, the guidelines and laws of the Church are very specific about what can be placed on the Altar (and a corpse is not one of them). The same with the treatment of the body or cremains of a human being, there are Canon laws that command our treatment of these human bodies. Using the body of the dead for advertising, shock, politics, is not permitted by the laws.
Not to mention the laws of the state about the proper handling of human remains.
We are bound to obey the just laws, all of em.
Not to mention the laws of the state about the proper handling of human remains.
We are bound to obey the just laws, all of em.
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TheLittleLady
Guest
For veneration, not for some sort of sideshow.I understand and sympathize with your concern, but I can think of a few counterpoints. Christians have since the beginning used corpses. We have whole bodies on display in churches. We have parts of bodies on display. Every church has an image of Jesus dying or dead and this to make a point.
Graphic images of mob killings also violate the dignity of the human being. Just because someone did it and won a Pulitzer does not make these exploitative photographs moral.
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on_the_hill
Guest
Did it work?Also, graphic images of people killed by a mob have been used to encourage man to not descend to such brutality.
The graphic-photo-protest is ethically wrong, for one thing. It also won’t work.
It won’t work because the different sides of the debate are talking past each other. It’s not as if it’s a debate on free trade, or on a political boundary, or a labor dispute.
Many people on the pro-choice side already recognize that the fetus is a baby. Reminding them isn’t going to change their minds.
To the pro-choice side, the principle supporting choice trumps whatever other facts/considerations that are involved. The balance between the two–baby’s life and philosophical principle–falls on the side of philosophical principle. They know it’s a baby and they’re willing to accept the baby’s death to preserve the principle.
That’s why pro-life vs pro-choice will never be resolved in a legislative hall or a courtroom or an executive mansion.
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JamalChristophr
Guest
Though I’m certainly not the CAF traffic police, seems like it would be better to make a separate thread about Fr. Pavone for the sake of some order, as that is a big enough topic in itself.
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Catholicwife32
Guest
Honestly, I find myself wondering if you are not sincere but rather just trying to gage the Catholic rationale for this. Personally, I think that images of life in the womb are the most appropriate. When I was in high school, we had people come to our school to protest with graphic signs. I was shocked and horrified by the late-term abortion pictures. I found that the first-trimester abortions pictures did not have the same effect. And indeed, in school, we definitely discussed what we’d seen, but mostly people became convicted that late-term abortions were evil but that first trimester abortions were okay. Then some argued that the situations people found themselves in were more complicated, so those holding a fully pro choice view took the position on late term abortion the same way they took it on euthanasia.
I don’t think there’s any evidence that it’s effective at all. In all my work in the pro life movement, I’ve never actually seen it do anything but get people angry and cause arguments.
In fact, I will say that from what I’ve seen in the pro life movement, I think the graphic picture desensitize pro lifers to graphic displays of violence. I think pro lifers start obsessing about the one abortion issue and are less affected by other pro life issues. They stop caring about their fellow man. I think it is inhumanae to put up ANY graphic picture of a violent death in front of people, especially children. I think the fact that pro lifers can hold up the signs with less emotional stirrings BECAUSE they’re desensitized, and I think this tends to create apathy in the pro life movement toward other pro life causes. I think it deminishes our pro life ethic.
I don’t think there’s any evidence that it’s effective at all. In all my work in the pro life movement, I’ve never actually seen it do anything but get people angry and cause arguments.
In fact, I will say that from what I’ve seen in the pro life movement, I think the graphic picture desensitize pro lifers to graphic displays of violence. I think pro lifers start obsessing about the one abortion issue and are less affected by other pro life issues. They stop caring about their fellow man. I think it is inhumanae to put up ANY graphic picture of a violent death in front of people, especially children. I think the fact that pro lifers can hold up the signs with less emotional stirrings BECAUSE they’re desensitized, and I think this tends to create apathy in the pro life movement toward other pro life causes. I think it deminishes our pro life ethic.
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Spyridon
Guest
What a scandalous thing to bring people who openly battle the Church to speak at a Church…
The Bishops and Priests who allow these scandals are in huge trouble. It would have been better for these clergymen had they never been born - it would have been better for these clergy to have a cinderblock tied around their neck and drowned in the sea - the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah will be better off than these sad, sorry souls at the Great Day.
The Bishops and Priests who allow these scandals are in huge trouble. It would have been better for these clergymen had they never been born - it would have been better for these clergy to have a cinderblock tied around their neck and drowned in the sea - the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah will be better off than these sad, sorry souls at the Great Day.
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runningdude
Guest
The Catholic bishops in the United States do not condone the use of graphic photos of the deceased.
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JamalChristophr
Guest
[No message]
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TheLittleLady
Guest
The US Bishops are unfailing in their opposition to abortion. If a US Bishop is turning a blank eye to an abortionist speaking at a Catholic parish, there would be an outcry from every Catholic news outlet that exists. There is silence right now.
My spidey sneses tell me that some important details are left out for the sake of a post to get people riled up or this is literally the worst guest appearance promotion ever.
My spidey sneses tell me that some important details are left out for the sake of a post to get people riled up or this is literally the worst guest appearance promotion ever.
Tis_Bearself
Patron
In those cases, the photos may well have evidentiary and historic value as well as whatever artistic merit they have leading to a Pulitzer. It is up to individual news outlets to determine whether such material is appropriate for their readership, and of course many evidentiary photos are so graphic they never make it out to a general audience though a jury may consider them in court. However, I do not think photographers should be told not to document gruesome killings because it is “undignified” for the victims. If that were the case, we would not have images of the Holocaust, or of various war crimes, all of which are important for at least a segment of the population to look at and contemplate in order to grasp the full horror and take steps to prevent it from happening again.Graphic images of mob killings also violate the dignity of the human being. Just because someone did it and won a Pulitzer does not make these exploitative photographs moral.
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casslean
Guest
I agree.
I also think that it loses sight of the fact that many of the women - I think possibly even ALL of the women - who obtain abortions are victims as well, and they need our compassion and love, not judgment. We don’t know what is in their hearts when they make that choice and we don’t know what they endure after making it, but I think it’s reasonable to say that if they are faced with images of violence from the one group from whom they should be able to find love and understanding, they will find it very hard to come to us and ask for that love and understanding.
I also think that it loses sight of the fact that many of the women - I think possibly even ALL of the women - who obtain abortions are victims as well, and they need our compassion and love, not judgment. We don’t know what is in their hearts when they make that choice and we don’t know what they endure after making it, but I think it’s reasonable to say that if they are faced with images of violence from the one group from whom they should be able to find love and understanding, they will find it very hard to come to us and ask for that love and understanding.
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Wolfie
Guest
As a person who formerly did not oppose abortion… when I saw people shouting and waving pictures of dead babies, it made me think pro-life people were crazy, aggressive, insensitive, and inappropriate. They seemed ridiculous to me, but more importantly, it was the main factor in making me not want to investigate the issue any further.
What did change my mind on the issue was reading Luke 1:41 in the Bible, and hearing reasoned arguments about life and souls, and what that means for when a life is created (even before that life has the ability to think or feel pain.)
I hope you will take that approach instead.
What did change my mind on the issue was reading Luke 1:41 in the Bible, and hearing reasoned arguments about life and souls, and what that means for when a life is created (even before that life has the ability to think or feel pain.)
I hope you will take that approach instead.
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LittleFlower
Guest
Yes, for very specific reasons and within very strict parameters, which are now clearly defined. He chose to disregard that to make some sort of statement.Christians have since the beginning used corpses.
It is not only a bit extreme but very worrying and extremely wrong. No one should use a dead body in any manner that is undignifying—regardless of what point of being made.I can understand being put off by what Fr. Pavone did. It was a bit extreme, and unfortunately calls to my mind the old Protestant scare stories about Catholics sacrificing babies, as well as being a likely wrong use of an altar.
However, I would hope you are even more “thoroughly disgusted and perturbed” by the taking of human lives through abortion. The taking of another’s life without a good reason (self-defense, the defense of one’s country or family) is the worst sin, bar none. It is beyond any sort of inanimate object sin.
Implying that I am not disgusted by the lives claimed by abortion is straight up rude. And no, the means to an end do not justify it.
Thank you for sharing that experience. I do the same thing!I pray for Fr Pavone every day, that he is able to again see the forest instead of one tree.
This! 100%!Graphic images of mob killings also violate the dignity of the human being. Just because someone did it and won a Pulitzer does not make these exploitative photographs moral.
Exactly.The Catholic bishops in the United States do not condone the use of graphic photos of the deceased.
My thoughts as well. If the message is not for the person who it is intended for, it is completely pointless. It’s basically then just a feel good campaign for those who are picketing, because they are doing something. It is not an actual campaign to help those struggling to choose life.What did change my mind on the issue was reading Luke 1:41 in the Bible, and hearing reasoned arguments about life and souls, and what that means for when a life is created (even before that life has the ability to think or feel pain.)
Tis_Bearself
Patron
No, it is not “straight up rude”. It is a reasonable, legitimate comment, phrased politely. The baby on Fr. Pavone’s altar is already dead - a victim of murder. This is a serious sin, and I would hope you would be outraged at the serious sin, although you can still have compassion for the sinner and have a negative opinion of Fr. Pavone’s actions. I note that Fr. Pavone will likely be disciplined by his diocesan superior, so that’s not really something we have to worry about except maybe to pray for him that he acts more properly in the future.Implying that I am not disgusted by the lives claimed by abortion is straight up rude. And no, the means to an end do not justify it.
I also did not say anything about ends justifying the means, either for abortion or for Fr. Pavone’s actions, so please do not read words into my posts.
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