Gravitating towards the SSPX

  • Thread starter Thread starter Augustinus1
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
The Society put themselves in this situation with their disobedience.
Yes, I agree but such situation is not schism.
You cannot go against the hierarchy and still claim to be orthodox in your beliefs, especially when the primacy of the Pope is what your leaders disobeyed.
First, you can claim whatever you want, says nothing about how true or false such claim is. Anyway, thing which SSPX disobeyed is mostly “No one can judge the First See” or Papal Supremacy, not Primacy itself. They are akin to some Eastern Catholics who presume to deny Papal Infallibility and Universal Jurisdiction but act like Pope conceded into “First Among Equals” polemic. I disagree with SSPX and their disobedience towards Pope as much as I disagree with some misinterpretations of V2 documents- either extreme is wrong.
 
The disobeyed a direct order from Pope John Paul II to not ordain a new Bishop. Instead, they ordained 4.
That is exactly what I am referring to, I have no idea how do people even defend this- even if canonically speaking that did not incur a schism it is still outright disobedience and wrong…
You cannot be orthodox in your Roman Catholic beliefs and still do this. It makes no sense and sets a dangerous precedent to gloss over these facts.
I’d remove “Roman” part though. Eastern Catholics also enjoy charismas of infallibility through the Pope as much as protection by his universal jurisdiction. Denying those would be a dangerous precedent for Latin Catholics as well.
 
We are not talking about Eastern Catholics who have their own Code of Canon Law or even the Orthodox.
The SSPX defied a direct order from the Pope. You cannot claim orthodoxy of belief if you pull a stunt like that.
 
The SSPX defied a direct order from the Pope. You cannot claim orthodoxy of belief if you pull a stunt like that.
Pope Benedict removed any sanctions in connection with that. You cannot claim orthodoxy of belief if you ignore an order of Pope Benedict
 
So, the sanctions were removed.
That still doesn’t excuse the disobedience.
Lifting the excommunications was an “olive branch” to help bring them back into communion.
And here we are, 10 years later, and the status is still irregular. Pope Francis has given them even more freedom to exercise their ministry, but they still won’t reconcile. :woman_shrugging:t4:
 
Last edited:
Well it sounds like you have formed your own opinion on the matter.
 
Does anyone else think it is ironic that SSPX priests are being praised for their othodoxy and being strong in doctrine when they are still in an irregular status within the Church?
I’ll say this. These SSPX priests seem to be more orthodox and stronger in doctrine than many of the priests who are in regular status within the Church. I won’t name names. One bishop at the recent Amazon Synod supports women priests. Another in Germany supports blessing gay unions. I could go on and on and on!
 
Last edited:
These SSPX priests seem to be more orthodox and stronger in doctrine than many of the priests who are in regular status within the Church
Agreed.
We all agree it’s better for priests to be orthodox and strong. But some strong and regular priests are on regular status working within the Church. Can they minister to the benefit (genuine renewal) of the Church by working from the inside more effectively than those not working directly within the Church?
 
Last edited:
I can’t weigh in on the SSPX since there are so many confusing issues surrounding it, if you could go to a FSSP mass, I think that would be a solid win for you. I don’t blame you at all for not wanting to to to this Numan Center. If it works out that the SSPX is permissible, I would go myself.
 
I’ll say this. These SSPX priests seem to be more orthodox and stronger in doctrine than many of the priests who are in regular status within the Church. I won’t name names. One bishop at the recent Amazon Synod supports women priests. Another in Germany supports blessing gay unions. I could go on and on and on!
And I will say this. There have been priests and bishops in the SSPX with unorthodox positions, like antisemitism. The SSPX probably harbors a higher percentage of these “flakes” than the rest of the church, though not a greater number.

But that is not what matters. Our church has an organization based on ordained clergy. Bishops, dioceses and jurisdictions matter. When they are irregular, those bonds are weakened. At a SSPX church you are not attending a church established by your bishop who provides the masses there. The connection to the whole episcopal system is tenuous at best.

Most religious priests coordinate with bishops. My impression of SSPX is that they cannot until they are regularized by the Vatican. Even Opus Dei, who are within the jurisdiction of a “personal prelate”, coordinates with bishops. SSPX may have better liturgies, better clergy, but they lack a relationship of obedience and the faith that enables it. (and frankly, I doubt that they have better liturgies or better clergy; it is mostly just greener looking grass.)
 
Last edited:
I wish my bishop would have done something like this… instead my diocese hears nothing but crickets regarding the chaos of the amazon synod.
 
.Our church has an organization based on ordained clergy. Bishops, dioceses and jurisdictions matter. When they are irregular, those bonds are weakened.
St Pope Pius X strongly believed in the importance of the bishop-ordinary, not just sacramental minister. In his Encyclical on Catholic Action he described laity and pastors in unity with each other, and their ordinary, not just in a symbolic way (picture on the wall) but in a practical way.

He was not writing for some ideal world. The dioceses in his time were very much imperfect, as were bishops, suffering with Modernism and other tensions and faults within and without.
 
OP, if you love the Traditional Mass, attend TLMs done by the FSSP, the ICKSP, or ones that are Diocesan. The SSPX has shown hostility to the Church before. Once, in France, they physically seized a Church after throwing its priest out.

 
But that is not what matters. Our church has an organization based on ordained clergy. Bishops, dioceses and jurisdictions matter. When they are irregular, those bonds are weakened. At a SSPX church you are not attending a church established by your bishop who provides the masses there. The connection to the whole episcopal system is tenuous at best.
In the midst of heated arguments, debates and fights, we often forget that it was Christ who was the architect of the structure of the Church. The Church is His bride. The key to Heaven and the responsibility to feed His sheep were entrusted upon Peter—the Vicar of Christ on earth. Without the pope as its head, the Catholic Church ceases to exist. The only legitimate authority to determine who the pope is lies solely in the domain of the Holy Catholic Church—and no one else. It’s simply presumptuous, arrogant and wrong to say otherwise.

As an adult, I often remember the lessons I was taught by the faithful nuns during my youth: Even Christ Himself (fully human and fully divine) fell three times while carrying the Cross to his death; Peter denied Christ three times; and Paul was hunting down Christians. And so on… The good priests on Sundays often reminded us to pick up the Cross and carry it every day. Although popes are Vicars of Christ, they are indeed human (too human)—with the capability to do great things AND with the capability to do harmful things. Throughout the life of the Church and in recent years, the examples for these have been abundant, and perhaps even painfully disastrous.

What Catholics, of good will and of good conscience, should and must do is to be faithful to the Holy Father (despite their failings and faults), to pray for him, and more importantly to place our faith and trust in the Holy Catholic Church. In the past, I heard despicable and vile attacks on Pope St. John Paul and the Holy Church: “He is the devil, a heretic. The gates of Hell have prevailed over the Church. And this and that…” It’s just simply unacceptable, and is contrary to the promise of Christ to protect the Church from the gates of Hell. I say this with the understanding that Catholics are not papists.

In my humble opinion, the “internal and irregular” situation with SSPX needs to be settled sooner rather than later. We want them to be in full communion with the Church. Time is not on our side—although patience and prudence are needed. I fear that, as time passes on and space further pushes us further apart. SSPX might eventually become another Protestant Church. It would not be good.
 
Last edited:
And how exactly would that be a good thing?
The SSPX is Catholic and upholds that they are more Catholic than the post VII Church.

Talk about creating a schism.
 
Last edited:
Post-Vatican II, Protestants have been acknowledged as being Christians, and both the Orthodox Church and Protestants are recognized as separated brethren. If SSPX does become Protestant, they’d be acknowledged as Christians and recognized as separated brethren.
And how exactly would that be a good thing?
The SSPX is Catholic and upholds that they are more Catholic than the post VII Church.

Talk about creating a schism.
Divisions already occurred in the Church long before the SSPX. From the point of view post-Vatican II, divisions are already accepted, and categorized.

The point that is being highlighted is that even if one were to say that SSPX is Protestant or in Schism, they’d still be called Christian and separated brethren.
 
In my humble opinion, the “internal and irregular” situation with SSPX needs to be settled sooner rather than later. We want them to be in full communion with the Church. Time is not on our side—although patience and prudence are needed. I fear that, as time passes on and space further pushes us further apart. SSPX might eventually become another Protestant Church. It would not be good.
The above paragraph is helpful, because it considers the impact of time, in the present, and (possible) future. Most SSPX threads have posters on both sides focusing on prior decades; helpful only up to a point.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top