Great devotion to Mary.

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ecohlman said:
I am a bit concerned, doesn’t scripture tell us that the Word is not open to the interpretation of any man? What about Acts 8: 30-31
30Then Philip ran up to the chariot and heard the man reading Isaiah the prophet. “Do you understand what you are reading?” Philip asked.

31"How can I," he said, “unless someone explains it to me?” So he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.

How is it that you can possibly give me a clearer understanding of the Word of God, then God himself? :confused:

Back to the topic: Devotion to Mary is no way required to achieve salvation, that is not now, nor ever has been taught by the Catholic Church. Just as is proven by the many verses already laid out though, Mary can and has led people to the source of salvation, Jesus Christ.
Regardless of the path that someone took to be led to Jesus, shouldn’t we be rejoicing that another soul has been saved, and that the Kingdom of Our Lord is continuing to advance?
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The word is not open to the interpretation of any man unless he be a believer and fully submitt to Christ as Lord and Savior. Once that submission takes place and you are baptized in Water and Spirit , the Spirit of truth opens your eyes to God’s word with clarity and through fellowship with other believers. " verily , verliy i say unto to you you cannot enter the Kingdom of God unless you are Born Again."
 
Gwaz4Christ said:
The word is not open to the interpretation of any man unless he be a believer and fully submitt to Christ as Lord and Savior. Once that submission takes place and you are baptized in Water and Spirit , the Spirit of truth opens your eyes to God’s word with clarity and through fellowship with other believers. " verily , verliy i say unto to you you cannot enter the Kingdom of God unless you are Born Again."
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Then we have an another dilemma, since there are literally 3000 Protestant denominations, not even counting those in the “non-denomination” ones, we will literally have different opinions and ideas about who is a true believer. We currently having a Mormon who claim he’s a true Christian because his denomination has Christ as the center of the belief, yet the rejected the concept of Trinity.

Then we have Lutheran, Baptist, Methodist, Church of Christ, Church of God, Presbyterian, Penecotsal…:coffeeread: , even in each of those denomination we have more branches(first Baptist, Southern Baptist, United Baptists:yawn:). You realize that without proper authority to guide each of our individual interpretations, the Bible is no longer an effective guideline of our daily life but rather became a novel for anybody to interpret to fit with themselves. You also realize how many people also claimed to receive the “Spirit” to guide them to read the Bible? That’s the reason why we have so many Protestant denominations, Joseph Smith for an example.
 
Gwaz4Christ said:
The word is not open to the interpretation of any man unless he be a believer and fully submitt to Christ as Lord and Savior. Once that submission takes place and you are baptized in Water and Spirit , the Spirit of truth opens your eyes to God’s word with clarity and through fellowship with other believers. " verily , verliy i say unto to you you cannot enter the Kingdom of God unless you are Born Again."
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…and praytell, who determines this?
First of all, the dramatic life-changing “Born Again” experiences reported by many is subjective – they vary in degree from person to person.

Secondly, these groups then take what is subjective and try to make it normative. In other words, they take these very personal encounters and insist that everyone must have a similar experience.

Lastly, these groups “re-Baptize” when they recruit ex-Catholics. This is what makes them of particular concern: they teach that the legitimate, licit, formal Baptism received by Catholics as infants into Jesus Christ is of no consequence, and must be replaced by a “Believer’s Baptism” in order for one to be able to say one is Baptized.

Catholic Baptism, on the other hand, is objective – as with all of the Sacraments, it is an act of God Himself. So whether one is an infant or an adult, one can be sure that if the right form and matter were used, one is Baptized into Jesus Christ, and has every right to the name of Christian. One can reasonably have the assurance of hope that if one obeys the commandments, loving God and loving neighbor and confessing/repenting of all mortal sin, one will be saved by Jesus Christ from judgment and hell.
It’s possible for Catholics to have the dramatic “experience” attested by many non-Catholics. But the “experience” is not equated with salvation. 2000 years of Church history is silent on that, until the last two centuries.
But the perception of non-Catholics is that these folks are “saved” by virtue of their experience, and in spite of the Church rather than through Her.
 
For the umpteenth time, Catholics DO NOT worship Mary!!! Nor do we believe she is Divine! :banghead:

We honor her. Take look at Exodus 20:12 ( Honor you father and mother. )

Since Christ is our Brother, his mother is ours as well. So we honor her as Christ honors her.
 
The Fundamentalist defense of sola scriptura rests on a false assumption, that scripture predates Catholicism. It was the Church that put together the bible as we know it today. In fact, even during Apostolic times, the Jewish people did not have a canon of scripture. They had the Torah, which are the first five books of the Bible. The other books were scattered all over Israel. Most of the stories in the OT were handed down by word of mouth. They had no printing press; therefore, every Jewish person did not have a copy of the Scriptures. What was kept in the temples was a copy of the Torah. The other books of the old testament were floating around. People knew bits and pieces of them. It was monks who collected them an collated them as we have them today. It was also monks who collected the Gospels and Epistles, codified them and organized them.

Prior to this accomplishment, the NT was promulgated by word of mouth. It was the Catholic Church that decided which books were to be included into the sacred canon, based on their coincidence with the faith of the Church. In other words, they allowed the books that represented what they had been handed down by the Apostles, via word of mouth and via the Church Fathers. Those other books that were inconsistent with the teachings of the Apostles and the Church Fathers were rejected. It was not the bible that gave birth to the Christian Church, but the Church that published the bible according to revelation as it had been handed down by an oral tradition. Even though the last book of the bible was written about 70 AD, the bible as we know it was not published until St. Jerome and his monks collated and translated the sacred texts.

As far as Mary is concerned, the Church, from the time of the Apostles VENERATED her for being the Mother of God, which cannot be denied, unless one denies that Jesus is God. They venerated her for leading men to Christ, which cannot be denied, unless one denies the Wedding At Cana when she says, “Do whatever he tells you.” They venerated her because sacred tradition handed down by St. Luke said that an angel of the Lord called her “Full of Grace.” In Greek, which is how Luke wrote his Gospel, the term “grace” means divine life. Luke tells us that the angel refers to her as being filled with Divine Life. Observe that he does not say that she is divine. Only God is divine. But no other human being has ever been referred to as being filled with Divine Life (Grace). The old argument that the angel is referring to Jesus in her womb is not true. Mary was not yet pregnant.

Luke also tells us that Mary herself says, “Henceforth all generations shall call me Blessed.” This was not a statement that would be taken lightly among Jews. Yet, the Apostles accepted this and did not prosecute Mary as a heretic. To be called Blessed , to a Jew, implies to be selected by God for himself. In addition, Luke also tells us that Elizabeth refers to her as “The mother of my Lord.” The word “Lord” was reserved for God. It is Elizabeth who first calls Mary the Mother of God, not the Catholic Church. This title was handed down from the Apostles to Luke, who was not an Apostle or even a believer until he is converted by Paul. Luke did not pull this out of his hat. He received this from the Apostles. He was not an eye-witness to these events. He learned them from the early Church. Either the early Church lied and was in a state of heresy, or Luke lies in his Gospel and the Gospel is in error.

St. Paul also tells us that we must complete what is missing in the sufferings of Christ. Now here we have an enigma. Christ offers the perfect sacrifice. We all agree on this. Yet, Paul speaks about what is lacking in his suffering. How does this work? Well, even though Christ’s suffering is sufficient to save man, even Christ’s act on the cross cannot save man without man’s assent. It is inaccurate to say that Christ’s passion is enough. That is not what the scriptures say. Christ’s passion with man’s assent work together for man’s salvation.

Does Mary intercede for us through her prayers? Why not? If I can pray for you, why can’t she? To say that she is dead and cannot pray for us is to deny the Mystical Body of Christ (1Cor 12:12-30) and to deny that those who die in faith , live in Christ. If they live in Christ, then they are not dead. If we say that once the body dies the person dies, then we deny the immortality of the soul. If that’s the case, then we do not need to fear hell. How can those who die in faith be dead and those who die in sin be alive in hell? See Lk 16: 19-30. In Rm 8: 35-39 Paul tells us that nothing can separate us from the Love of Christ, not even death. Therefore, prove to me that the mother of God is separated from her son in death.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Let us anaylize the command in scripture of Baptism. First you must submitt to Christ as Lord of your life. Than you must ask Christ personally for forgiveness of your sins and be heartfelt and sorrowful in your heart. Once you have that forgivness your are to submerged in water with your old life in sin going under the water and your new life in Christ coming out of the water. Now you can find this exact order of the command of Baptism in scripture. I ask you this. How can an infant acknowledge Jesus as Savior, and repent from thier sin( which Catholics believe we are born into original sin to begin with). This is the exact order of the command of Baptism in scripture. No where in the New Testament are infants being Baptized. Nor was that practice in the early pre-catholic Church. This came hundreds of years later. If this is the exact literal order of how Baptism should be carried out how can you justify infant Baptism??? As far as different denominations go there are all different orders within the Catholic Church such as Franciscans, Dominicans, Jesuits etc. Some of which have had different theoolgies and at times were on the verge of excomunication from the Catholic Church at 1 or more periods of time between 325 and the present. This is hystorically indisputable. Many Popes gave orders to wipe out Jews and other countries during the Inquisitions and Crusades, and I ask you are they considered righteous theologic ways of thinking in the attrocities and persecutions they carried out??? Did not the Pilgrims leave Europe because of these persecutions??? With the exception of Mormons who believe in Joseph Smith,that God is an alien living on a distant planet and that Smith did more for Christianity than Christ Himself and Jehovas witnesses that believe Jesus was not God in the flesh and do not believe in a literal physical Resurrection of Christ’s body,and Episcopals that believe in ordaining homosexuals and women Priests, the differences in all the other denominations of protestantism are minor Biblical interpretations in which the Bible is the only authority in Christ before them and all dissagree with catholic traditions and their canons, decrees and catechism. If you want to get specific and literal in the late 1980’s Pope John Paul II had relgious Leaders from all different religions, faiths and cults in a historic ceremony on the very steps of the Vatican. Pope John Paul declared in front of hundreds of thousands of people that he in faith believed that they were all praying to the same God. This is highly disturbing. “Jesus is the truth and the light”,John 3;16",For God so loved the world that he gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life." This verse clearly states that Christ is the only way to salvation and eternal life with the living God of Israel. For Him to say that they are praying to the “same god” is blasphemous. If the Pope is infallable in matters of faith how could he make this statement??? Religious tolerance and love for your fellow man is one thing, but to compromise your faith in Christ is wrong and unexceptable. I ask you this. When John, Peter and Paul were confronted in all the places they were taking the Good News to and witnessed all the pageon gods in thier midst didn’t they stand firm in their belief in Christ?? Did they say to the pagans, it is ok to worship your gods because they were probably praying to the same god anyway??? No!!! Thier faith was never swayed and many times were condemed and imprisoned for it!!! So I ask you, do you honestly think people should conform to catholic tradition, canons, theology and Biblical interpretations and not question it’s doctrine. I’m sorry but history has proven it wrong throughout based on it’s actions. So many Popes have made critical mistakes in matters of faith and as a believer in Christ I cannot feel comfortable with that.
 
Is Mary essential to Salvation History? Well, let’s look at Sacred Scripture and Christian History. In the KJV Is 7:14 “Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.” The virgin was an essential part of the sign. If you know anything about Judaism, as I do, having been born Jewish, the word “sign” means “proof.” The virgin conceiving was a proof of God’s favor. Mary is the only virgin in human history who conceives a child.

Second, the Virgin has to be Jewish. Why? The Messiah had to be born of the House of tribe of Judah. In Judaism we take our spiritual lineage or faith from the mother, not the father. Jesus needed a Jewish mother to be truly Jewish.

Mary’s virginity is not only proof of God’s predilection for his people, but her Jewish faith is necessary to fulfill the prophecy that the Messiah would be of the tribe of Judah. There were other people of the Jewish faith, but they were not Jews. A Jew was a person from the line of Judah. The modern definition of Jew is not the same. Remember in scripture how they separate those of the Jewish faith: Jews, Maccabeus, Samaritans, and so forth. They were all children of Abraham. But not all were from Judah. Mary was. It was essential that Jesus have a mother from that line. It was essential that he have a mother who was a virgin.

Is Jesus not the source of all Grace? How does he enter into the world? Through Mary . . . that’s how she comes to be called the Mediatrix of all graces. It’s a reference to Jesus. The Apostles recognized this. Those Apostles who traveled to the East taught about her as the Theotokos, which in English means the God-Bearer. The Orthodox Christians use this term to this day. To bear God had two meanings to that generation of Christians. First, it meant that she bore him through her maternity. It also meant that she brought him to mankind. He becomes man through her. His humanity is from her humanity. Through Mary’s human nature, the second person of the Trinity, who is fully God and fully divine, also becomes fully human.

Since we cannot split Jesus in half, she becomes the mother of the God-Man. He has two natures: human and divine. Those natures do not blend. But they cannot be separated either. If you separate them, Jesus ceases to be the Word made flesh. Therefore, he is born human and divine, from one mother who gives birth to this God-Man.

Who can prove that Jesus become incarnate fully human and fully divine, without a mother? Who can prove that Jesus would be a Jew without a Jewish mother? Who can prove that his mother was not a virgin? Who can prove that Mary was not his mother? Finally, who can deny that she has a singular place in salvation history? Who else has occupied this place?

I don’t want to hear that God could have chosen someone else. That’s nonsense. God could have chosen a Chinese mother too. But he did not. He chose this one. So answer the questions using what God used, Mary of Nazareth, not some hypothetical mother that never existed.

Catholics are not the only ones who venerate Mary, so do: Lutherans, Episcopalians, Anglicans, Orthodox Christians, Presbyterians, Muslims and Jews. To venerate and to worship are not the same thing. We worship God, we venerate Mary.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Please watch Father Mitch Paqua vs. Dr Walter Martin on you tube in thier debate. This will enlighten all Catholics.

Because the scripture says we should not pray or talk to the dead. Mary’s so called assumption into heaven is no where in the New Testemant, early pre-catholic church writings or in the Apocrypha. Also the mystical body being talked about is all believers in Christ are the mystical body of His church. All believers in Christ are saints not just martyrs deemed by the Catholic church hierarchy. 1 Cor 1 :1-3 & Gal 1:1-3. If that was the case all the 15 million Sudanese Africans murded in the last 20 years by muslim extremists because of thier Christian beliefs are maryrs as well. The teaching of purgatory has a major problem Brother. When Christ died on the cross it was victory over sin, and he overcame the world. His Resurection was victory over death. Scripture says , But for one time is Christs sacrifice needed never to be repeated again. Christ said “it is finished.” It says his sacrifice was once and for all. These verses show major contradiction when it comes to catechismic claims of “trans-substantiation” during the sacrifice of the mass as well, but that is another issue. So to say that people spend time in a cosmic prison in between can only imply that Christs sacrifice was not fully suffiecient that we need to pray the people in between into heaven to complete His Divine work. Scripture thoroughly contradicts this. As far as Mary being prayed to or prayed through can be refuted easily. She was blessed person who was chosen by God to bring God in the flesh into the world. She was only His earthly mother. Not His divine mother in heaven. It is father ,Son and Holy Spirit, not mary too. And frankly when reading this catechism most catholics become very disturbed. Christ had 2 natures, God nature and man nature but only He was without sin. Mary called Christ her Savior. You do not need a savior if you are with out sin. Intercession is about believers in Christ interceding for eachother in times of Spiritual need. In fellowship they pray for and with eachother to Christ as well to glorify Him. They confess in thier hearts thier sins directly to God and do not need to ask dead entities who are under God’s judgement as well to ask God for them. If you choose to confess your sins to other believers in Christ they know that that person has God’s forgivness if that person is truly heartfelt repentant. Thats only between the sinner and the Lord personally. As far as Mary being, an intercessor for me , giving me grace and being the mediatrix, that is impossible. God gives grace directly to whom ever he feels is deserving. He does not designate a deliverer or “Postman” for that purpose. If she were to be as esteemed as the catechism has her deemed, than the Apostles and Christ Himself would have specifically spoken to us on an issue of such importance and the Apostles would have not forgotten this and would have cleary wrote and spoken about this emphatically. They would have mentioned in detail this essential need for a mediatrix . This is sumed up with one scriptural passage. " There is only one mediator between God and man and that is Christ Jesus. With all due respect there is absolutley no way this verse can be spun differently , missinterpreted or taken otherwise. This is not contexual, it is literal.
 
For those who believe no explanation is necessary, but for those who doubt no explanation is sufficient.

Pax†
 
Gwaz4Christ said:
{snip}

" There is only one mediator between God and man and that is Christ Jesus. With all due respect there is absolutley no way this verse can be spun differently , missinterpreted or taken otherwise. This is not contexual, it is literal.
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Which Church teaching on Mary denies this?
 
I am done with all of you guys. I ahve stated my case through faith in scripture. For anyone who focuses any prayer or faith in anyone but Christ that is wrong. You all go to enormous strechting lengths to venerate mary above her role. Did she have a divine calling, yes. Was she herself divine?No!!! I know the truth is in scripture and this will go on and on because my authority is the word. Your authority is first Rome ,it’s traditions and then scripture. Search your hearts. Look at Catholic church history. Thousands of people are being saved everyday. Thousands of catholics do not agree with Romes catechism. Thousands are coming to the word as the authority. I see it everyday. No one is brainwashing them or pushing them. It is happening through the Holy Spirit. Thousands of cathoilcs are leaving the Catholic church everyday. Protestants are not leaving the word to go back to catholicism. That is why you see less and less priests in parishes. If they obeyed God’s word on priests having thier choice of marriage or being celebit you would have 1 head pastor with 8 associate pastors and the problems would be solved. Priests were married in the catholic church in the beginning. But monetary corruption changed all that. It is sad. I will not blog any more on this website for I have stood firm in the word against all the people that have contradicted me. Do not write me because I will not respond. I’m done and leave this little mission with Praise to Christ alone and having victory in His divine word as my sword. His divine word is victorious once again. Peace be with you all.
 
Gwaz4Christ said:
I am done with all of you guys. I ahve stated my case through faith in scripture. For anyone who focuses any prayer or faith in anyone but Christ that is wrong. You all go to enormous strechting lengths to venerate mary above her role. Did she have a divine calling, yes. Was she herself divine?No!!! I know the truth is in scripture and this will go on and on because my authority is the word. Your authority is first Rome ,it’s traditions and then scripture. Search your hearts. Look at Catholic church history. Thousands of people are being saved everyday. Thousands of catholics do not agree with Romes catechism. Thousands are coming to the word as the authority. I see it everyday. No one is brainwashing them or pushing them. It is happening through the Holy Spirit. Thousands of cathoilcs are leaving the Catholic church everyday. Protestants are not leaving the word to go back to catholicism. That is why you see less and less priests in parishes. If they obeyed God’s word on priests having thier choice of marriage or being celebit you would have 1 head pastor with 8 associate pastors and the problems would be solved. Priests were married in the catholic church in the beginning. But monetary corruption changed all that. It is sad. I will not blog any more on this website for I have stood firm in the word against all the people that have contradicted me. Do not write me because I will not respond. I’m done and leave this little mission with Praise to Christ alone and having victory in His divine word as my sword. His divine word is victorious once again. Peace be with you all.
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And I simply say…refer to my last post.

Peace and good luck to you. May Our Lady bring you closer to her and thus closer to Jesus.
 
Gwaz4Christ said:
I am done with all of you guys. I ahve stated my case through faith in scripture. For anyone who focuses any prayer or faith in anyone but Christ that is wrong. You all go to enormous strechting lengths to venerate mary above her role. Did she have a divine calling, yes. Was she herself divine?No!!! I know the truth is in scripture and this will go on and on because my authority is the word. Your authority is first Rome ,it’s traditions and then scripture. Search your hearts. Look at Catholic church history. Thousands of people are being saved everyday. Thousands of catholics do not agree with Romes catechism. Thousands are coming to the word as the authority. I see it everyday. No one is brainwashing them or pushing them. It is happening through the Holy Spirit. Thousands of cathoilcs are leaving the Catholic church everyday. Protestants are not leaving the word to go back to catholicism. That is why you see less and less priests in parishes. If they obeyed God’s word on priests having thier choice of marriage or being celebit you would have 1 head pastor with 8 associate pastors and the problems would be solved. Priests were married in the catholic church in the beginning. But monetary corruption changed all that. It is sad. I will not blog any more on this website for I have stood firm in the word against all the people that have contradicted me. Do not write me because I will not respond. I’m done and leave this little mission with Praise to Christ alone and having victory in His divine word as my sword. His divine word is victorious once again. Peace be with you all.
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May our Blessed Mother Mary’s prayers protect you on your way.
 
CatholicFireman said:
For those who believe no explanation is necessary, but for those who doubt no explanation is sufficient.

Pax†
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If i do not venerate mary and just pray to Christ alone as my personal Lord and savior is my salvation in jeopardy???
 
Gwaz4Christ said:
If i do not venerate mary and just pray to Christ alone as my personal Lord and savior is my salvation in jeopardy???
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Nah. But be careful, friend.

Hey…I thought you were through with this thread? :rolleyes:
 
Gwaz4Christ said:
If i do not venerate mary and just pray to Christ alone as my personal Lord and savior is my salvation in jeopardy???
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Not because you don’t venerate Mary. This is an optional pious practice.

On the other hand, trying to go it alone may be hazardous to your salvation. We are to come to Jesus in community.
 
One question to leave you with, In revelation when John saw the woman riding the beast(each beast representing a country) Who was the woman with the golden cup full of abominations??? Does this not concern you???
 
Faith in christ alone is all we need. Thats what scripture says. We have no other Savior. How am I going it alone if I have Christ. remember the truth, martin Luther did not want to leave the Church, he was forced out because he wanted to stay strictly to the word. They banished him because of there monetary intrests and he interfered with the selling of indulgences.
 
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