Greko Catolic Bishop for Atheni

[Volodymyr]

ATHENIAN GREKO-CATOLIC BISHOP - SOURCE OF SADNESS

Archimandrite Georgij (Kapsanis) of Gregoriat Monastery on Mount Afon has written long article in Greek about ordination of Bishop Dmitri (Salakhos) to be Greko Catolic bishop of Athens but named bishop of Karkavia (??). His ordination “khirontonija” was in Atheni on May, 2008. Such Greek Greko-Catolic in center of Orthodox world makes Archimandrite Georgij wonder at intentions of Catolic church and its papal-centric ecumenism. He is writing:

“Such ordination of new Uniate (actual word, not mine) bishop in Atheni presents again one strong and insulting attack of Vatican against Orthodoxy, and precisely against Greek Church. Of recent years friendly opposition manifested by Orthodox church to activity of Uniates (his word) especially remembering the announcement of the vicars of the Most Holy Orthodox churches, has met typical answer of Vatican: open support of Unia. Consequently, before us with new force is raised the question: What is the purpose of theological dialogue if Unia is greeted, blessed and supported by Vatican?”

Archimandrite is very forthright using words (unia, uniate) that are not polite in English, but are used in Greek for such unions going back to attempted Unia of Florenzia. I hope that this new Bishop Dmitri can be a good representative of Catolic church in Greece. But must be aware of other views such as of Archimandrite from Afon, which will have great impact in Greece, I am believing.

This is Gregoriat monastery on Afon:
http://69.90.174.252/photos/display_pic_with_logo/146158/146158,1195739257,2.jpg

 

[Isa_Almisry]

ATHENIAN GREKO-CATOLIC BISHOP - SOURCE OF SADNESS

Archimandrite Georgij (Kapsanis) of Gregoriat Monastery on Mount Afon has written long article in Greek about ordination of Bishop Dmitri (Salakhos) to be Greko Catolic bishop of Athens but named bishop of Karkavia (??). His ordination “khirontonija” was in Atheni on May, 2008. Such Greek Greko-Catolic in center of Orthodox world makes Archimandrite Georgij wonder at intentions of Catolic church and its papal-centric ecumenism. He is writing:

“Such ordination of new Uniate (actual word, not mine) bishop in Atheni presents again one strong and insulting attack of Vatican against Orthodoxy, and precisely against Greek Church. Of recent years friendly opposition manifested by Orthodox church to activity of Uniates (his word) especially remembering the announcement of the vicars of the Most Holy Orthodox churches, has met typical answer of Vatican: open support of Unia. Consequently, before us with new force is raised the question: What is the purpose of theological dialogue if Unia is greeted, blessed and supported by Vatican?”

Archimandrite is very forthright using words (unia, uniate) that are not polite in English, but are used in Greek for such unions going back to attempted Unia of Florenzia. I hope that this new Bishop Dmitri can be a good representative of Catolic church in Greece. But must be aware of other views such as of Archimandrite from Afon, which will have great impact in Greece, I am believing.

This is Gregoriat monastery on Afon:
http://69.90.174.252/photos/display_pic_with_logo/146158/146158,1195739257,2.jpg

This might damper (or the Greeks will damper) the EP’s enthusiasm, and that of the Metropolitan of Pergamon for Ravenna.

 

[Formosus]

Shouldn’t Catholics be allowed their own heirarchy within traditionally Orthodox countries just as Orthodox are allowed ones within Traditionally Catholic nations. The Russian Orthodox Bishop of Vienna comes to mind specificially. I think that events like this are way overblown by polemics.

 

[Aramis]

I find the Eastern Orthodox polemics on the issue ironic…

Half the time, they deny the validity of the Catholics at all… dismiss us as outside the church, and thus irrelevant.

The other half the time, they’re upset because we’ve duplicated their hierarchy with our own…

… which should only matter if they churches in question are still united in some fashion, and both still valid.

And it isn’t like there are not 4 canonical orthodox bishops whose sees include parishes in my home town!

 

[Volodymyr]

Shouldn’t Catholics be allowed their own heirarchy within traditionally Orthodox countries just as Orthodox are allowed ones within Traditionally Catholic nations. The Russian Orthodox Bishop of Vienna comes to mind specificially.

.

But this is not similar situation. Bishop Ilarion of Vien is not trying to be a Roman Catolic bishop saying Catolic Mass with a church with statues. He is bishop of Russians who live in Avstria. Greek country has Roman Catolic bishops; they serve all kind Italians or others who live in Greece. But such Bishop Dmitri is trying to be Greek Orthodox and Roman Catolic at same instance - his church looks Orthodox, but he believes he is helping cause of unity by half measures as embracing Papalism. Most Orthodox do not agree. Unia and Western Rite Orthodoxy are only confusing structures. They exist - perhaps let alone - but not to be encouraged.

 

[Formosus]

But there are Greek (Byzantine) Catholics in Greece. So why can’t they have a heirarchy?

 

[Diak]

Ironic is a soft word - I would even say completely hypocritical. We Catholics never protest when an Orthodox church or even Eparchy or diocese is set up in a traditionally Catholic country - be that France, Spain, or South America. Of course those who wish to be Greek Catholic of their own conscience should have a hierarchy.

THIS IS NOTHING MORE THAN COMPLETE AND BLATANT HYPOCRISY.

If Volodymyr persists in these kind of blatant anti-Eastern Catholic posts on the Eastern Catholicism thread, we will have no recourse but to report him. They do not belong here - I did not recall that this Forum was intended to prove that Greek Catholics should not exist, which seems to be the point of the majority of Volodymyr’s posts.

We do exist, we continue to grow and recover our Churches.
FDRLB

 

[bpbasilphx]

** I did not recall that this Forum was intended to prove that Greek Catholics should not exist,**

Yet this was once the attitude of the Latin hierarchy in the USA. It was even published in the AMERICAN ECCLESIASTICAL REVIEW.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

I find the Eastern Orthodox polemics on the issue ironic…

Half the time, they deny the validity of the Catholics at all… dismiss us as outside the church, and thus irrelevant.

The other half the time, they’re upset because we’ve duplicated their hierarchy with our own…

… which should only matter if they churches in question are still united in some fashion, and both still valid.

And it isn’t like there are not 4 canonical orthodox bishops whose sees include parishes in my home town!

Oh, I remember quite a bit of complaining from JP II on the Protestants in Latin America. And I don’t recall any idea from him that the Protestants had valid orders or sacraments (outside of baptism).

And for the Orthodox “homelands” being a different case than the so called Orthodox “diaspora,” these homelands usually have a history of that duplicate hiearchy surplanting the Orthodox by force.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Ironic is a soft word - I would even say completely hypocritical. We Catholics never protest when an Orthodox church or even Eparchy or diocese is set up in a traditionally Catholic country - be that France, Spain, or South America.

And the Protestants? I recall protests from the pope of Rome on down.

And the Orthodox hierarchs have never been a threat to surplant the Vatican’s hierarchy in the lands you mention. Such can not be said of the reverse.

Of course those who wish to be Greek Catholic of their own conscience should have a hierarchy.

That’s your own decision to make. You just have not right to expect that the Orthodox won’t respond if need be.

THIS IS NOTHING MORE THAN COMPLETE AND BLATANT HYPOCRISY.

If Volodymyr persists in these kind of blatant anti-Eastern Catholic posts on the Eastern Catholicism thread, we will have no recourse but to report him. They do not belong here - I did not recall that this Forum was intended to prove that Greek Catholics should not exist, which seems to be the point of the majority of Volodymyr’s posts.

Like this one?

ORTHODOX AT CATHOLIC ANSWERS SAJT

Some have asked why are Orthodox here at this sait - at least my view of Catolics is expressed below (please read to end)

The Consultation of Avtokefalnik Orthodox Church heads and representatives regarding the question of Catolicism and Orthodoxy occured in 1948 in Moscow. There was much agitation against Bishop of Rome Pij XII who wanted a “soft” peace with Fascism not punishing those who killed so many innocents during Great Fatherland War. Main participant of this consultation, interesting, was Protopriest Gavril Kostel’nik who helped organize Council of L’vov of 1946 which united Greko Catolics with Orthodoxy. However, during such consultation were several papers presenting all kinds of evils and mis deeds of Catolic Church from many years previously. These were pubished in Journal of Moskow Patriarchate to whose editor replied St. Bishop Luka (Luc) Bojno-Jasenetskij who himself was child of Orthodox father but Polish Catolic mother. ** I think his letter is attitude of most Orthodox people who visit this sait: **

"Using this occasion in order to reveal to you, as editor of this Journal, my own deep sorrow occasioned by articles and talks at this “Consultation” in summer by Archbishop Germogen. Why did he have to gather all the most fithy, most negative about Catolic Church? Is there nothing in her which is luminous and positive, are there not miracles and Saints? Certainly Catolic church is not only Pope and Cardinals, only Vatican, to whose politic we also feel negative? Does not Catolic church consist of millions of simple peope with pure and devote hearts? Why poison them with articles of Germogen creating evil and heavily sinful barriers between Christians. Why, why, why such a heavy sin - only to the joy of the enemies of the Church??

Below Icon of this Holy Saint Luka who will help us (EOS and RCS as you say) by his prayers to understand each other

http://www.sedmitza.ru/htdocs/database/imagebase/12119.jpg

I don’t agree with his positin on the Western Rite Orthodox. He doesnt’ seem to approve of the council of L’vov, as I don’t.

We do exist, we continue to grow and recover our Churches.
FDRLB

Recover our Chruches? Hmmmm. Statement? Threat? Promise?
What about those Churches taken at the time of the “union?” Can the Orthodox recover them? Keep them?

Can we get this back?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Nevsky_Cathedral,_Warsaw

 

[Isa_Almisry]

** I did not recall that this Forum was intended to prove that Greek Catholics should not exist,**

Yet this was once the attitude of the Latin hierarchy in the USA. It was even published in the AMERICAN ECCLESIASTICAL REVIEW.

sshhhhh. We’re not supposed to bring that up.

 

[dvdjs]

** I did not recall that this Forum was intended to prove that Greek Catholics should not exist,**

Yet this was once the attitude of the Latin hierarchy in the USA. It was even published in the AMERICAN ECCLESIASTICAL REVIEW.

It’s not that this should not be brought up, only that a fair response is to ask why it is being brought up. The situation brought up is far more akin to the issue of multiple overlapping Orthodox jurisdictions in the US. By Orthodox canons, these competing hierarchical structures should not exist.

But what does any of this have to do with the OP? Please let’s not suggest an equivalence between the idea of subsuming faithful of some given communion under a common hierarchical structure of that communion, with the murderous liquidation of Greek churches in Eastern Europe.

 

[dvdjs]

And for the Orthodox “homelands” being a different case than the so called Orthodox “diaspora,” these homelands usually have a history of that duplicate hierarchy supplanting the Orthodox by force.

Duplicate hierarchy supplanting the Orthodox by force - usually?
Surely you know that this statement is false.

 

[dvdjs]

Diak:
Of course those who wish to be Greek Catholic of their own conscience should have a hierarchy.

Isa:
That’s your own decision to make. You just have not right to expect that the Orthodox won’t respond if need be.

Can we agree to hope that the response will respect fundamental human rights? Can we agree on fundamental human rights?

Diak:
We do exist, we continue to grow and recover our Churches.
Isa:
Recover our Churches? Hmmmm. Statement? Threat? Promise?
What about those Churches taken at the time of the “union?” Can the Orthodox recover them? Keep them?

Why is that the recovery of property stolen through the workings of the Communist regime is still a problem? How is this treachery of living memory viewed as defensible?

As to churches taken at the time of the Union: Are there temples still existing from that era; with clear legal issues on transfer of ownership? I am skeptical. If you can find a legitimate claim, and find a claimant with legal standing, then good luck in court. Until then, you are just blowing smoke.

Can we get this back?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexand…hedral,_Warsaw

Why ask this question on an Eastern Catholicism forum?

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Duplicate hierarchy supplanting the Orthodox by force - usually?
Surely you know that this statement is false.

Besides the Melkites, name one.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Can we agree to hope that the response will respect fundamental human rights? Can we agree on fundamental human rights?

Why is that the recovery of property stolen through the workings of the Communist regime is still a problem? How is this treachery of living memory viewed as defensible?

It’s not.

But neither is the recovery of property stolen through the workings of the Polish and Hapsburg monarchies.

As to churches taken at the time of the Union: Are there temples still existing from that era; with clear legal issues on transfer of ownership? I am skeptical.

Hmm. Clear legal issues on transfer of ownership. I’m sure the Polish and Hapsburg chancelleries left those sorts of things in good order.LOL.

If you can find a legitimate claim, and find a claimant with legal standing, then good luck in court. Until then, you are just blowing smoke.

was that the pretense for justice I just saw go up in smoke?

Why ask this question on an Eastern Catholicism forum?

came from the response to the OP.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

It’s not that this should not be brought up, only that a fair response is to ask why it is being brought up. The situation brought up is far more akin to the issue of multiple overlapping Orthodox jurisdictions in the US. By Orthodox canons, these competing hierarchical structures should not exist.

But what does any of this have to do with the OP? Please let’s not suggest an equivalence between the idea of subsuming faithful of some given communion under a common hierarchical structure of that communion, with the murderous liquidation of Greek churches in Eastern Europe.

Under the Communists or under the Polish and Hapsburg monarchies?

 

[dvdjs]

Originally Posted by dvdjs:
Duplicate hierarchy supplanting the Orthodox by force - usually?
Surely you know that this statement is false

.

Isa responds: Besides the Melkites, name one.

Start with Brest. The participating Orthodox Bishops were not duplicated or supplanted; they sought and entered into the Catholic communion. Subsequently they were excommunicated by the EP.

As to force: Please don’t play semantical games here. The union was not compelled - as evidenced by the fact that not all Bishops participated in it. The same cannot be said concerning the liquidation of the Greek Catholic Churches in the post WWII era.

 

[dvdjs]

I
… was that the pretense for justice I just saw go up in smoke?

How vulgar to make an accusation of pretense. You make a claim of stolen property, but your claim is totally vague. Who the owned property at the time of the unions? Who built the temples? These are important factors in establishing a real sense of justice, under law. In recent times the situation is more clear. For example, no Orthodox group had any legal rights to the Greek Catholic Cathedral in Uzhhorod.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

.

Start with Brest. The participating Orthodox Bishops were not duplicated or supplanted; they sought and entered into the Catholic communion. Subsequently they were excommunicated by the EP.

You conveniently omit that those bishops were under the foot of the Polish crown. And, within a short time, their support in the union evaporated.

As to force: Please don’t play semantical games here. The union was not compelled - as evidenced by the fact that not all Bishops participated in it.

They were eliminated outright, as all legal recognition was given to those who submitted. When the Patriarch of Jerusalem secretly consecrated a new Orthodox Metropolitan of Kiev and other hierarchs, the Polish king and his nobles refused to recognize their existence.

Even then, the bishops who submitted were supervised by the Latin bishops, and their flock had to pay tithes to both the Eastern and the Latin hierarchies. Hence the reason why a third never submitted, and their numbers swelled.

The same cannot be said concerning the liquidation of the Greek Catholic Churches in the post WWII era.

Exactly the same thing can be said.