Greko Catolic Bishop for Atheni

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Normally their is more nuance in your polemic…

But this is shear guile.

If you don’t know by now what we are talking about when we talk about the recovery of churches VERY CLEARLY STOLEN FROM US within the lifetime of a generation still living…

Well I can only conclude what I always suspect. You are hear only for polemic sport.

Give us a break.
In my old parish I’ve seen the home videos of those visiting “back in the old country” celebrating Divine Liturgy on the lawns of Churches their parents and grandparents built, now VERY CLEARLY STOLEN FROM THEM within the lifetime of generations still living.

Those who mourn Lvov but celebrate Brest seem to adamently against recognizing that many did not wait for the Soviet to “reunite” them to the Mother Church:
In the 1890s, 145 years after Orthodoxy had ceased to exist in the Carpathians, a ‘return to Orthodoxy’ movement began, reaching a high point in the 1920s. Many Greek Catholics who became Orthodox were arrested for treason and a few were even executed by the government, with the Talerhof Concentration Camp5 and Martyr-Priest Maxim Sandovich’s death in 1914 being the best known incidents. Meanwhile, the Russian Bolshevik Revolution was forcing Russians of the nobility and middle class to leave Russia, and many settled in the USA. These Russians arrived and began integrating into the American Russian Orthodox Church (the Metropolia) at precisely the same time that Carpatho-Russians in America were also returning to the Orthodox faith.6 Leading the charge was Fr. Alexis Toth, a former Greek Catholic priest who converted many to Orthodoxy (due to his initial efforts, over 50% of USA Rusyns are Orthodox). This American mixing further influenced events and persecutions back in the Carpathian homeland, where thousands of fleeing Orthodox Russians also settled, including monks who founded the Ladomirova Monastery

And what could be motivating those Orthodox Rusyn?

…Later in 1991, there were major protests, including physical attacks and hunger strikes when it was decided to give the cathedral back to the Greek Catholics. The Orthodox immediately set about to build the new Cathedral of the Exaltation of the Cross, under the guidance of Fr. Dmitrii (Dymytrij) Sydor, a Moscow Patriarchate priest (perhaps the most visible cleric in all modern Transcarpathia) who is extremely active in the Carpatho-Russian/Rusyn movement. The architecture of the new cathedral is based on the design of the famous and newly rebuilt ‘Cathedral of Christ the Savior’ in Moscow, which is the largest church in Russia. Currently, Orthodox believers are outraged at the impending construction of a new Roman and Greek Catholic cathedral complex in the vicinity of the Orthodox cathedral. So, they announced they would erect another church of their own in downtown Uzhgorod, right in front of the original Greek Catholic cathedral, tit-for-tat. The new church will be consecrated after St. Alexei Kabalyuk, a Rusyn Orthodox hero. Kabalyuk was born into a Greek Catholic family but converted to Orthodoxy, became a priest and played a major role in reviving Orthodoxy in Transcarpathia in the early 20th century. On the eve of WWI, Kabalyuk was jailed, and later was a major leader of the Carpathian Orthodox until his death in 1947. He was canonized in 2001, but as the primary Orthodox leader who assisted the Soviets in the 1946 liquidation, is offensive to the Greek Catholics.
simkovich.org/religion.htm

Since the move of the center of the union of Brest to Kiev, will this be the next “stolen” Church up for “return?”

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Sophia_Cathedral_in_Kiev
 
Raise an army an conquer Poland, than you can build it even taller so it will dominate the skyline like the old days before Warsaw had tall buildings and then use it as a sign and symbol of foreign authoritarian domination and suppression of local culture just like what the Russians did. It would be just like building a giant memorial to German world war 2 veterans in modern Tel Aviv :rolleyes:
Back in the days of communism even the Poles would say that, having destroyed a beautiful Cathedral, they deserved the ugliest (and most hated) building in all of Poland.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f0/Russian_cake_-Warsaw._Pastel_ruso._Varsovia…jpg

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palace_of_Culture_and_Science,_Warsaw

Btw, this looks rather “Byzantine.”

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Lady_of_Czestochova
 
Since the move of the center of the union of Brest to Kiev, will this be the next “stolen” Church up for “return?”
Net yet, we are still working on taking over the United States (our Jesuits have been having a hard time ever since the Know Nothings and Klu Klux Klan came into the picture), overthrowing the British monarchy, restarting the Nazi party, and not to mention Opus Dei is too busy trying to keep quite the whole Mary Magdalene was Jesus’s wife thing.
 
Net yet, we are still working on taking over the United States (our Jesuits have been having a hard time ever since the Know Nothings and Klu Klux Klan came into the picture), overthrowing the British monarchy, restarting the Nazi party, and not to mention Opus Dei is too busy trying to keep quite the whole Mary Magdalene was Jesus’s wife thing.
Then let me rephrase, are they going to REtake Saint Sophia of Kiev, having done so at Brest?
 
I assume you believe the Jews deserved the holocaust too, huh?
Just repeating what they said.
Yeah it’s called an “Icon”, it’s a Catholic thing I guess you wouldnt understand
ROFL.

My patron saint, btw, is John of Damascus, iconodule par excellence.
 
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As to force: Please don’t play semantical games here. The union was not compelled - as evidenced by the fact that not all Bishops participated in it. The same cannot be said concerning the liquidation of the Greek Catholic Churches in the post WWII era.
Assuming that you’re talking about the “Union” established at the council of Florence:

“Sure, we’ll help you against the Turks…IF you submit to us!”

Not calling that “compulsion” is playing semantical games, if anything is.
“Not all bishops participated in it” - true. ONE (1, uno, een!) bishop refused to sign the agreement. Only ONE.

Keep on thinking that the “union” from the Council of Florence was due to some miraculous Eastern revalation; that the Pope WAS in fact the head of all Christendom, etc, if that’s what you want. The truth of the matter is that this union was the result of the weakened state of the Roman Empire, under pressure from the Turks, and the refusal of western powers to render assistance unless the Eastern Church submitted to Rome. That’s what happened.
 
Assuming that you’re talking about the “Union” established at the council of Florence:

“Sure, we’ll help you against the Turks…IF you submit to us!”

Not calling that “compulsion” is playing semantical games, if anything is.
“Not all bishops participated in it” - true. ONE (1, uno, een!) bishop refused to sign the agreement. Only ONE.

Keep on thinking that the “union” from the Council of Florence was due to some miraculous Eastern revalation; that the Pope WAS in fact the head of all Christendom, etc, if that’s what you want. The truth of the matter is that this union was the result of the weakened state of the Roman Empire, under pressure from the Turks, and the refusal of western powers to render assistance unless the Eastern Church submitted to Rome. That’s what happened.
He is taking about the Union of Brest where the Ukrainian church re entered comunion with Rome. Not the failed union of florence.
 
Oh I see, sorry my English is not 100%. Curious though, I do not remember anyone ever saying something like that
It was during Communism when I heard this (I’ve only been once, in 1987). I understand that the Poles now, for instance, think the Church has too much invovlement in goverment. I don’t recall them saying that when I was there (Solidarity had yet to emerge from its suppression when I was there).

Nowa Lwow? Not Novi Lviv? Where’s that?
 
In my old parish I’ve seen the home videos of those visiting “back in the old country” celebrating Divine Liturgy on the lawns of Churches their parents and grandparents built, now VERY CLEARLY STOLEN FROM THEM within the lifetime of generations still living.

Those who mourn Lvov but celebrate Brest seem to adamently against recognizing that many did not wait for the Soviet to “reunite” them to the Mother Church:
In the 1890s, 145 years after Orthodoxy had ceased to exist in the Carpathians, a ‘return to Orthodoxy’ movement began, reaching a high point in the 1920s. Many Greek Catholics who became Orthodox were arrested for treason and a few were even executed by the government, with the Talerhof Concentration Camp5 and Martyr-Priest Maxim Sandovich’s death in 1914 being the best known incidents. Meanwhile, the Russian Bolshevik Revolution was forcing Russians of the nobility and middle class to leave Russia, and many settled in the USA. These Russians arrived and began integrating into the American Russian Orthodox Church (the Metropolia) at precisely the same time that Carpatho-Russians in America were also returning to the Orthodox faith.6 Leading the charge was Fr. Alexis Toth, a former Greek Catholic priest who converted many to Orthodoxy (due to his initial efforts, over 50% of USA Rusyns are Orthodox). This American mixing further influenced events and persecutions back in the Carpathian homeland, where thousands of fleeing Orthodox Russians also settled, including monks who founded the Ladomirova Monastery

And what could be motivating those Orthodox Rusyn?

…Later in 1991, there were major protests, including physical attacks and hunger strikes when it was decided to give the cathedral back to the Greek Catholics. The Orthodox immediately set about to build the new Cathedral of the Exaltation of the Cross, under the guidance of Fr. Dmitrii (Dymytrij) Sydor, a Moscow Patriarchate priest (perhaps the most visible cleric in all modern Transcarpathia) who is extremely active in the Carpatho-Russian/Rusyn movement. The architecture of the new cathedral is based on the design of the famous and newly rebuilt ‘Cathedral of Christ the Savior’ in Moscow, which is the largest church in Russia. Currently, Orthodox believers are outraged at the impending construction of a new Roman and Greek Catholic cathedral complex in the vicinity of the Orthodox cathedral. So, they announced they would erect another church of their own in downtown Uzhgorod, right in front of the original Greek Catholic cathedral, tit-for-tat. The new church will be consecrated after St. Alexei Kabalyuk, a Rusyn Orthodox hero. Kabalyuk was born into a Greek Catholic family but converted to Orthodoxy, became a priest and played a major role in reviving Orthodoxy in Transcarpathia in the early 20th century. On the eve of WWI, Kabalyuk was jailed, and later was a major leader of the Carpathian Orthodox until his death in 1947. He was canonized in 2001, but as the primary Orthodox leader who assisted the Soviets in the 1946 liquidation, is offensive to the Greek Catholics.
simkovich.org/religion.htm

Since the move of the center of the union of Brest to Kiev, will this be the next “stolen” Church up for “return?”
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d1/Kiev_Sofiakathedraal.jpg
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Sophia_Cathedral_in_Kiev
Ahh how you dodge the charge and make more polemic Isa. It doesn’t bother me in the least - the more you do so, the more record there is of it.

There is no denying there was a movement among some disaffected Rusyns to go Orthodox. What of it?

Why not let that movement take its course, fund it from the state treasury as certain agitators against the union were funded before, and make a case?

Why crawl in bed with murdering theives who were at the very same time killing Orthodox priests and bishops? Why act blind to the ideologies that were in fact at work there? At best we only seem to get from the polemicists here “Well if that was bad it was no worse than what you did!”. How ironic.

Would it kill you to admit that the robber synod of L’viv was an act of totalitarian state, and not a justified means to an end?
 
Oh, I remember quite a bit of complaining from JP II on the Protestants in Latin America. And I don’t recall any idea from him that the Protestants had valid orders or sacraments (outside of baptism).
Offer a citation that demonstrates an analagous protests please.
 
Ahh how you dodge the charge and make more polemic Isa. It doesn’t bother me in the least - the more you do so, the more record there is of it.

There is no denying there was a movement among some disaffected Rusyns to go Orthodox. What of it?

Why not let that movement take its course, fund it from the state treasury as certain agitators against the union were funded before, and make a case?
Yes, of course. Only state action would make anyone want to be Orthodox. St. Alexis Toth worked for the KGB.:rolleyes:
Why crawl in bed with murdering theives who were at the very same time killing Orthodox priests and bishops? Why act blind to the ideologies that were in fact at work there? At best we only seem to get from the polemicists here “Well if that was bad it was no worse than what you did!”. How ironic.
Of course, from your exspoused view, Brest did no wrong.
What is to be said about any compromise by the Church’s leaders, be it PoM Alexis or Archbishop Wielgus.
Would it kill you to admit that the robber synod of L’viv was an act of totalitarian state, and not a justified means to an end?
No dodge. I don’t approve of Lvov anymore than I do Brest (is that a robber synod too?): perhaps less as I expect more of the Orthodox. I expect nothing from the Communiists: what are/were we to expect from our “Christian Brothers” who funded and enforced by the sword Brest?
 
Offer a citation that demonstrates an analagous protests please.
Plenty whiich I don’t have to the time to look up, if they are archived somewhere (I’ve seen them in the print media, including Catholic print media): one I remember was at the papal mass in Central America (Nicaragua?) where he made a reference about those who used to have love in their heart for the Blessed Virgin and do not anymore, and those who turned them away from her.

Our parish has a lot of converts, many of whose families are Protestant missionaries in Latin America: one was raised in Ireland by her Irish American family who went back as Protestant missionaries. Yes, they have plenty of obstacles placed on their activities, not only prosletizing, but also with their own local community worshipping.
 
Yes, of course. Only state action would make anyone want to be Orthodox. St. Alexis Toth worked for the KGB.:rolleyes:

Of course, from your exspoused view, Brest did no wrong.
What is to be said about any compromise by the Church’s leaders, be it PoM Alexis or Archbishop Wielgus.

No dodge. I don’t approve of Lvov anymore than I do Brest (is that a robber synod too?): perhaps less as I expect more of the Orthodox. I expect nothing from the Communiists: what are/were we to expect from our “Christian Brothers” who funded and enforced by the sword Brest?
Which brings up back to where we got off on this tangent: what “union,” beside the Melkite, was not initiated and/or enforced by some Crusader or Inquisitor?
 
St. Josaphat was also canonized.
I usually cross myself when passing one of the Vatican’s churches, as well as the Orthodox.

I purposely go out of my way not to pass Josaphat here in Chicago.
 
what are/were we to expect from our “Christian Brothers” who funded and enforced by the sword Brest?
Lies on the part of the anti-catholic radicals - Peter the Great himself killed Greek Catholic priests with his own sword, not to mention the Imperial governemnt destroyed by force the Greek Catholic Church in central Ukraine and Belarus

fourtunately I know plenty of Eastern Orthodox Christians who are nothing like you, whom appear to hold much hate, by refering to us as “the vatican” and mocking and insulting our saints and saying we have no right to exist, as a matter of fact the communists used the exact same language

You should be careful, becuase there are others reading this forum unfamiliar with the Eastern Orthodox religion and your open hostility and hate is the first impression they get of it, and that is a great disservice, I would of thought by now one of your co-religionists would of sent you a priate message telling you to calm down and be more Christian like, I guess not
 
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