Growth in celebration of the Extraordinary Form: Promises or Perils?

[otjm]

I would say from your list that the people who mention those items aren’t themselves very familiar with tradition in the Church; in fact they seem more intent on capturing a snapshot of what the Church was at a specific point in time:

The Eucharistic prayer of the OF is deficient. The traditional Roman Canon is still valid for use in the OF

For the priest to pray toward the people in the OF is to erase the distinction between priest and laity, who should be marked as offering distinctly separate sacrifices. It was done facing the brothers and laity in monasteries for centuries; in many places the monastery was the only place Catholics could attend Mass well before Trent

Removing the tabernacle from the central Altar diminishes the centrality of the Eucharist in the OF. The tabernacle has been in side chapels of monasteries for hundreds of years

It is less worthwhile for laity to simply follow along with the priest’s prayer, as in the vernacular OF; it is more spiritually efficacious to offer a separate Eucharistic prayer specifically intended for Mass. I’m not sure what this means

Piano and guitar are insufficiently reverential instruments for liturgical music. The hymn Silent Night was written for guitar in 1818, nobody can argue it isn’t beautiful or reverential

The melodies and musical arrangements of traditional Tridentine music are an essential part of proper worship. The same melodies and musical arrangements are used for the OF when celebrated in Gregorian chant, which is still licit, valid and done in many places, and (at least in French) many of the melodies have been adapted to the vernacular, such as the EP in French

The loss of reverential, traditional liturgy is a large contributor to people leaving the Church. This wouldn’t explain why many mainstream Protestant churches have also lost parishioners in the same era; it has more to do with social conditions than the liturgy

The replacement of sermons with homilies has eroded the moral sense of the laity. There has never been, to my knowledge, any such distinction, there are many ancient “homilies” describe as such in the patristic lectionary for the Office of Readings; the Catholic Encyclopedia’s article about homilies is dated 1910.

very well said. Much of what you answered is nothing more than personal opinion.

 

[Eduard_Khil]

The problem which "FNR speaks is neither the EF, not the long distances people have to travel. It is certain members of those who prefer the EF, who are utterly dismissive of the OF, and the vast majority of those Catholics who attend it. The poison from those who reject Vatican 2 and the legitimacy and efficacy of the OF has spread well beyond certain “chapels”.

But in all fairness someone could make the exact mirror image claim, going the other way, and it would still just be somebody’s opinion based on his own personal experience. The smartest thing to do is probably just BE Catholic, and act Catholic. Heap those coals on the heads of others, try to help them to burn with charity too, instead of divisiveness.

… but the greatest of these is charity.

Back to the op, I think growth in the EF will help everybody on both sides just chill out.

 

[fnr]

I personally don’t see anything uncharitable about what otjm said. I think you’re wrong, too, but I don’t mean to be a jerk. I just disagree.

All I was saying is that my question in the OP was based on my experience. You and Rich C both suggested that I was making an assertion of fact that most Trads reject Vatican II, which I do not assert.

I don’t know which statement of mine you don’t agree with. All I’m doing is reporting what I have personally witnessed. I’ve said that in my experience, some of the Trad people in my area have said things that are both critical of Vatican 2, the OF, and associated spirituality. When I was with them, people have defended SSPX, cited papal encyclicals written prior to V2 to argue that V2 was wrong, and called the decades after the 1950s (e.g., after Vatican II) the “dark times.” I’m not talking about global statistics for traditionalists, I’m strictly saying that in my own personal experience, I’ve heard these statements from a fairly large fraction of the group of Trads with whom I’ve met.

I have belonged to 5 trad parishes and while there is a tiny minority of people who are more than a little critical of the church leadership and the OF, my experience is of people desiring the old practices it off love and reference, not as a reaction to the Church and the OF etc.

All I can say is that among the Trad group I’ve visited, I wouldn’t say that there was a “tiny minority” of people critical of the OF (as I said in the OP, I’d characterize it as “a reasonably large proprtion” – not a majority, but not just 1 or 2 people). Of course, there’s a spectrum throughout all the groups I’ve visited, as as been noted by others in this thread, ranging from those who like the EF for its beauty to those who seem to be undeground Sedevacantists.

I am sure that you’re a good person, and that you act with charity. In my experience, the Trads have welcomed my visits and treated me kindness for the most part. What I’m saying is that we need to remember that the Church is One, and that I’m concerned that EF and OF parishes may further split into groups that look at the other with unwarranted criticism.

 

[ProVobis]

The poison from those who reject Vatican 2 and the legitimacy and efficacy of the OF has spread well beyond certain “chapels”.

But Vatican II mandated Latin and keeping in Latin people’s responses and heavily encouraged Gregorian chant, and the organ. How’s this going in the OF? According to Cardinal Arinze, had the Mass not so been banalized and desacralized, people wouldn’t be asking for the older Mass as much. Surely you have seen some of his videos by now.

What I’m saying is that we need to remember that the Church is One, and that I’m concerned that EF and OF parishes may further split into groups that look at the other with unwarranted criticism.

As I’ve stated before, all one needs to do is to go to a bilingual OF parish and see the splits. Add to that the growing dissatisfaction with this or that translation only exacerbates that problem, a problem much more widespread than any EF vs OF concerns, which is by certain admission, involves fewer than 1% of total Masses.

 

[Eduard_Khil]

some of the Trad people in my area have said things that are both critical of Vatican 2, the OF, and associated spirituality.

I don’t know a single devout OF Catholic who couldn’t be described as “critical” with regard to some things about Vatican II, its implementation, the OF and its implementation, and certain forms of spirituality and dogmatic, erm, how shall I say, rigor, and so forth. Keep in mind, critical thinking can be a very good thing, and it’s not just trads who exhibit this good quality. There’s no need to be so modest about the cognitive ability of people who prefer the OF!

When I was with them, people have defended SSPX, cited papal encyclicals written prior to V2 to argue that V2 was wrong, and called the decades after the 1950s (e.g., after Vatican II) the “dark times.”

So what? The wider world is not CAF: people can feel free to promote the sspx out there, which is against the rules here. It’s called religious liberty, and actually Vatican II made quite a to-do about it. If their negativity or perception is getting you down, be a light to them. You can’t force somebody to change their mind, all you can do is charitably provide them with any counterarguments you’d like to make. Most important, trads aren’t blind, and are actually more truth-seeking than most people in the world, so make sure you be the change you wish to see, and I’m sure others will reevaluate their own behavior, if not their Mass preferences, because of your example.

I’m not talking about global statistics for traditionalists, I’m strictly saying that in my own personal experience, I’ve heard these statements from a fairly large fraction of the group of Trads with whom I’ve met.

And in my experience, any truly negative backbiting is very limited, though people with certain general concerns are quite common. I’m now wondering if the legitimate concerns I hear from both OF and EF people are what you consider to be criticisms.

What I’m saying is that we need to remember that the Church is One, and that I’m concerned that EF and OF parishes may further split into groups that look at the other with unwarranted criticism.

That’s a good goal. Unity is important, and the more the EF is celebrated the more unity there will be, because trads will feel less and less as though they’re unwanted by the princes of the church and their subjects.

 

[Maria_Emme]

I have recently started attending Traditional Catholic Mass with SSPX , unfortunately not as often as I would like because it is not available where I live, personally for me there is no comparison between the two. The solemnity and spirituality of the Extraordinary Form I find beautiful, the focus is totally on Christ as I see it. The dress code, the general behaviour …
I personally would be overjoyed if the Catholic Church returned to the Traditional ways
I find it difficult to concéntrate in prayer during the Ordinary Form , this doesnt happen during the Traditional Mass
I think changing it was a mistake

 

[OraLabora]

I have recently started attending Traditional Catholic Mass with SSPX , unfortunately not as often as I would like because it is not available where I live, personally for me there is no comparison between the two. The solemnity and spirituality of the Extraordinary Form I find beautiful, the focus is totally on Christ as I see it. The dress code, the general behaviour …
I personally would be overjoyed if the Catholic Church returned to the Traditional ways
I find it difficult to concéntrate in prayer during the Ordinary Form , this doesnt happen during the Traditional Mass
I think changing it was a mistake

Have you ever been to an Ordinary Form Mass celebrated entirely in Gregorian chant? Properly done the OF Mass can be every bit as reverent and beautiful as the EF Mass, to the point where someone who didn’t know the details of both forms would be hard-pressed to tell the difference. I attend such an OF Mass at a local monastery. Last night’s Mass was a prime example; everything in Gregorian chant, the Roman Canon used for the EP, and as the monks processed out carrying the Blessed Sacrament to the altar of repose, they chanted Pange Lingua, finishing with the two last verses (Tantum Ergo) at the altar of repose. With incense. It was truly moving.

It really isn’t the form of the Mass. It’s the care with which it is executed. I’d be willing to bet you five bucks if the EF was the only form of the Mass, there would be plenty of cases where it would be poorly executed just as the OF is in many places. Right now the EF is being exclusively said by people who are enthusiastic about its preservation, which is great. But ask people who have been around for a long time and you’ll hear plenty of stories of rushed and mumbled Masses before Vatican II.

 

[Eduard_Khil]

Have you ever been to an Odinary Form Mass celebrated entirely in Gregorian chant?

Does anyone maintain a list of those? They seem rather like unicorns to me: so many have claimed to have attended, but only somewhere else…

Properly done the OF Mass can be every bit as reverent and beautiful as the EF Mass, to the point where someone who didn’t know the details of both forms would be hard-pressed to tell the difference.

The point isn’t so much what the OF can be “somewhere”, but what it is 99.9% if the places you go today. People are fed up with what the OF represents everywhere, not with what it “can be” at some location seven hours away.

attend such an OF Mass at a local monastery. Last night’s Mass was a prime example; everything in Gregorian chant, the Roman Canon used for the EP, and as the monks processed out carrying the Blessed Sacrament to the altar of repose, they chanted Pange Lingua, finishing with the two last verses (Tantum Ergo) at the altar of repose. With incense. It was truly moving.

We should all be so lucky. Seriously. This is how things are at the EF, so why is it next to impossible to find this at the Ordinary Form? I am literally happy for you.

It really isn’t the form of the Mass. It’s the care with which it is executed. I’d be willing to bet you five bucks if the EF was the only form of the Mass, there would be plenty of cases where it would be poorly executed just as the OF is in many places.

Perhaps this is the reason it was taken away from us and replaced with a mere shadow of the grandeur it once had. God knows, though I don’t presume to.

Right now the EF is being exclusively said by people who are enthusiastic about its preservation, which is great.

Yes it is. Maybe this is the price God asked for our faithfulness to the Mass that developed over centuries: that we not take it for granted lest it be replaced with something more worthy of our unworth. Don’t scoff at this idea: this is precisely what happened to the practitioners of a certain religion who didn’t recognize Jesus as the messiah, and now don’t even offer the animal sacrifices that they once did.

For anybody who takes offense at this idea, just keep in mind that you don’t know the future any more than I do, nor the mind of God any more than I do. As I already said, I do not presume to know. I can simply offer thoughts and opinions.

 

[OraLabora]

Does anyone maintain a list of those? They seem rather like unicorns to me: so many have claimed to have attended, but only somewhere else…

Within an easy drive of Montreal, you can find two monasteries using Gregorian Chant with the OF, and two basilicas doing sacred polyphony. In Sherbrooke, Quebec, a Mass in the OF is sung in Gregorian chant monthly from September through June; our schola rotates from parish to parish. On this page is a list of scholas in Canada (note includes both EF and OF): gregorian.ca/eng/resources.php.

There are also plenty of reverent vernacular Masses (without Gregorian chant) and I know of a monastery on the West Coast that does Gregorian chant and English plainchant.

I read a lot of complaining about liturgy and lack of chant on this forum. Might I humbly suggest that people get involved, start/join a schola, get on the liturgy committees in their parish, etc? Here in Canada, there’s the Gregorian Institute of Canada (of which I’m a director) working to promote chant. There are similar groups elsewhere in the world who can help, such as musicasacra.com/. People need to get involved, educate, create a demand. It will come in baby steps with everyone’s involvement.

People worked hard to bring the EF to many places. I wish people would work just as hard at promoting good sacred music in the OF. There’s a ton of resources available.

 

[GangGreen]

One has to go no farther than older threads in this forum to find people who are attracted to the EF who are so lacking in charity concerning the OF that they get themselves banned.

The lack of “charity” concerning the EF is quite high as well. It just doesn’t get punished. Too often charity gets thrown around like people are supposed to accept anything and everything because otherwise they’re being uncharitable. I wonder if even our Blessed Lord would have been called uncharitable when calling people hypocrites and telling them they’re going to burn in the eternal hell fires.

Anyway, people here like to point out the random monastery or church here and there that has a highly reverent OF Mass and that’s great, I wish more places like this existed. I wish everywhere in the world held their Masses like this. However, let’s not be blind to what’s going on all throughout the world. It’s quite frightening and to stand by and say everything is great is just plain wrong.

It’s not just the liturgy though. Anyone who says it’s only the liturgy is lying or ill-informed, but to say that the status quo run of the mill OF Mass in most parishes is not a contributing factor is overlooking a big problem.

Yes, there are tons of factors at work and the traditionalists who only point to the liturgy are overlooking the big picture. Would instituting the EF as the only Mass while leaving everything else the same fix all of the problems in today’s Church? Absolutely not. Would it help? Maybe. Maybe just a more reverent OF Mass in every parish in the world would help. It would probably help a lot actually. There are some traditionalists who would never accept the OF even if it’s similar to the EF in every way possible in the current set of rubrics. It’s just how it is. However, I would venture a guess that a whole lot more would be open to it.

The current state of the Church is pretty grim though. We’re talking about a great apostasy never seen before in the life of the Church from both laity and even some clergy who are publicly disobedient to the Church. The lack of belief in the Real Presence. The absolute ignorance/denial of hell and the realities of sin. The acceptance of homosexual acts/marriage, abortion, contraception, among others. People of all ages, young and old, who outright reject Church teachings and yet continue to call themselves Catholic. Young people just not caring once they hit their late teenage years, many of whom aren’t coming back as they get older. Vocations down to the point where we’re seeing more priests dying than being ordained.The Catholic school system eroding to where clergy/religious no longer teach at these schools, tuition is through the roof, people are no longer enrolling, the education quality has fallen and orthodox Catholicism is hardly taught. Where the culture of death is outright ignored and in some places even encouraged.

So is the liturgy responsible for all of this? Probably in part. The liturgy is where most Catholics get their dosage of Catholicism, so if that’s deficient just imagine the rest of their spiritual lives. However, maybe these traditionalists use the liturgy as the starting point for that reason. If your liturgy shows a side of Catholicism that stresses the sacrifice of the Mass, the Real Presence, the need for Confession, the realities of hell, and teaches against the evils of today’s world then maybe this will flow into the rest of the Church’s life.

 

[OraLabora]

The current state of the Church is pretty grim though. We’re talking about a great apostasy never seen before in the life of the Church from both laity and even some clergy who are publicly disobedient to the Church. The lack of belief in the Real Presence. The absolute ignorance/denial of hell and the realities of sin. The acceptance of homosexual acts/marriage, abortion, contraception, among others. People of all ages, young and old, who outright reject Church teachings and yet continue to call themselves Catholic. Young people just not caring once they hit their late teenage years, many of whom aren’t coming back as they get older. Vocations down to the point where we’re seeing more priests dying than being ordained.The Catholic school system eroding to where clergy/religious no longer teach at these schools, tuition is through the roof, people are no longer enrolling, the education quality has fallen and orthodox Catholicism is hardly taught. Where the culture of death is outright ignored and in some places even encouraged.

How is this any different than in St. Paul’s time?

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and wickedness of those who by their wickedness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 Ever since the creation of the world his eternal power and divine nature, invisible though they are, have been understood and seen through the things he has made. So they are without excuse; 21 for though they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their senseless minds were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools; 23 and they exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling a mortal human being or birds or four-footed animals or reptiles.

24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the degrading of their bodies among themselves, 25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.

26 For this reason God gave them up to degrading passions. Their women exchanged natural intercourse for unnatural, 27 and in the same way also the men, giving up natural intercourse with women, were consumed with passion for one another. Men committed shameless acts with men and received in their own persons the due penalty for their error.

28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind and to things that should not be done. 29 They were filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, covetousness, malice. Full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, craftiness, they are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters,[f] insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, rebellious toward parents, 31 foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32 They know God’s decree, that those who practice such things deserve to die—yet they not only do them but even applaud others who practice them.

(Romans 1)

So is the liturgy responsible for all of this? Probably in part. The liturgy is where most Catholics get their dosage of Catholicism, so if that’s deficient just imagine the rest of their spiritual lives.

Is that where they get most of their Catholicism? It seems to me that the starting point to really, really learn Catholicism was in the home, not the liturgy. The family that prays together stays together, and the family that stays together manage to pass down their values to their children. Outside the home, catechism, catholic schools, and homilies. I really doubt the average person in the pew really pays much attention to what the liturgy does teach; and I will agree 100% with you that it does teach to those who pay attention. I’m always learning something new through studying the liturgy. But the breakdown in the nuclear family, in particular the Catholic nuclear family, ISTM, is the real reason for the failure to transmit the faith. And that breakdown comes from succumbing to secular pleasures, the desire for instant gratification, and the confusion of “feelings” with true agape love so that when strong emotions die out as they inevitably do people think love has as well.

However, maybe these traditionalists use the liturgy as the starting point for that reason. If your liturgy shows a side of Catholicism that stresses the sacrifice of the Mass, the Real Presence, the need for Confession, the realities of hell, and teaches against the evils of today’s world then maybe this will flow into the rest of the Church’s life.

Lack of reverence is indeed a huge issue, but not limited to the OF; if the EF were universal, we might experience the same thing in it as we do now in the OF. The EF in general today, is like the OF at our abbey: entrusted to a devout group of men insistent on carrying it out properly down to the last detail.

That said, I think the teaching about the evils of the world and hell needs to be balanced against some tremendous progress made in the world as well; I think here of civil rights, abolishing slavery, religious freedom, medical progress, to name a few. I think it’s also important to stress and draw out our potential for good and charity. It isn’t all doom-and-gloom.

I also think it’s important to teach about personal inner conversion. That’s the only true path to holiness.

 

[felsguy]

The lack of “charity” concerning the EF is quite high as well. It just doesn’t get punished. Too often charity gets thrown around like people are supposed to accept anything and everything because otherwise they’re being uncharitable. I wonder if even our Blessed Lord would have been called uncharitable when calling people hypocrites and telling them they’re going to burn in the eternal hell fires.

Anyway, people here like to point out the random monastery or church here and there that has a highly reverent OF Mass and that’s great, I wish more places like this existed. I wish everywhere in the world held their Masses like this. However, let’s not be blind to what’s going on all throughout the world. It’s quite frightening and to stand by and say everything is great is just plain wrong.

It’s not just the liturgy though. Anyone who says it’s only the liturgy is lying or ill-informed, but to say that the status quo run of the mill OF Mass in most parishes is not a contributing factor is overlooking a big problem.

Yes, there are tons of factors at work and the traditionalists who only point to the liturgy are overlooking the big picture. Would instituting the EF as the only Mass while leaving everything else the same fix all of the problems in today’s Church? Absolutely not. Would it help? Maybe. Maybe just a more reverent OF Mass in every parish in the world would help. It would probably help a lot actually. There are some traditionalists who would never accept the OF even if it’s similar to the EF in every way possible in the current set of rubrics. It’s just how it is. However, I would venture a guess that a whole lot more would be open to it.

The current state of the Church is pretty grim though. We’re talking about a great apostasy never seen before in the life of the Church from both laity and even some clergy who are publicly disobedient to the Church. The lack of belief in the Real Presence. The absolute ignorance/denial of hell and the realities of sin. The acceptance of homosexual acts/marriage, abortion, contraception, among others. People of all ages, young and old, who outright reject Church teachings and yet continue to call themselves Catholic. Young people just not caring once they hit their late teenage years, many of whom aren’t coming back as they get older. Vocations down to the point where we’re seeing more priests dying than being ordained.The Catholic school system eroding to where clergy/religious no longer teach at these schools, tuition is through the roof, people are no longer enrolling, the education quality has fallen and orthodox Catholicism is hardly taught. Where the culture of death is outright ignored and in some places even encouraged.

So is the liturgy responsible for all of this? Probably in part. The liturgy is where most Catholics get their dosage of Catholicism, so if that’s deficient just imagine the rest of their spiritual lives. However, maybe these traditionalists use the liturgy as the starting point for that reason. If your liturgy shows a side of Catholicism that stresses the sacrifice of the Mass, the Real Presence, the need for Confession, the realities of hell, and teaches against the evils of today’s world then maybe this will flow into the rest of the Church’s life.

The “verse of the day” on another website I visit just happens to be:

"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.” John 10:28-30

I find it comforting and share it here with the hope that it may likewise bring comfort to others.

 

[OraLabora]

The “verse of the day” on another website I visit just happens to be:

"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.” John 10:28-30

I find it comforting and share it here with the hope that it may likewise bring comfort to others.

 

[GangGreen]

How is this any different than in St. Paul’s time?

(Romans 1)

How is it different? Because people who claim to call themselves Catholic take part in these things. What Paul discusses here are the Gentiles/Pagans.

Is that where they get most of their Catholicism? It seems to me that the starting point to really, really learn Catholicism was in the home, not the liturgy. The family that prays together stays together, and the family that stays together manage to pass down their values to their children. Outside the home, catechism, catholic schools, and homilies. I really doubt the average person in the pew really pays much attention to what the liturgy does teach; and I will agree 100% with you that it does teach to those who pay attention. I’m always learning something new through studying the liturgy. But the breakdown in the nuclear family, in particular the Catholic nuclear family, ISTM, is the real reason for the failure to transmit the faith. And that breakdown comes from succumbing to secular pleasures, the desire for instant gratification, and the confusion of “feelings” with true agape love so that when strong emotions die out as they inevitably do people think love has as well.

I agree that most of what we learn and take in comes from study and prayer life outside of church, but that’s not to discount the effect that the liturgy and the homily from the priest should be teaching the laity. The priest should have a much higher degree of theological training than the average person and as such their ability to teach and give us a clear understanding should come at a higher degree than what we can do on our own. People should rely on the Church for their education regarding the faith. The Church has the luxury of having built a treasury of knowledge over the past couple thousand years.

Lack of reverence is indeed a huge issue, but not limited to the OF; if the EF were universal, we might experience the same thing in it as we do now in the OF. The EF in general today, is like the OF at our abbey: entrusted to a devout group of men insistent on carrying it out properly down to the last detail.

I don’t disagree. A large part of the desire for reform before VII was due to abuses in the EF. Whatever the main Mass is will be abused by those priests who do not take it seriously. However, to me it goes beyond just the reverence and goes into what is being said and done and what message it conveys. However, I won’t go into all of that in this thread.

That said, I think the teaching about the evils of the world and hell needs to be balanced against some tremendous progress made in the world as well; I think here of civil rights, abolishing slavery, religious freedom, medical progress, to name a few. I think it’s also important to stress and draw out our potential for good and charity. It isn’t all doom-and-gloom.

While that’s all great, it’s like one step forward and two steps back. The thing is that the doom and gloom is not talked about or actioned against all that much. The Church is bleeding profusely and no one seems to want to stop it.

I also think it’s important to teach about personal inner conversion. That’s the only true path to holiness.

Yes, but it is also important to evangelize the world and to have a strong Church. When we see the Church in such dire straights, we shouldn’t sit idly by. In the same way, when we see so many souls taking the path to perdition, we should not just sit by and think about inner conversion. This is not what we are called to do. This is part of being Catholic.

 

[GangGreen]

The “verse of the day” on another website I visit just happens to be:

"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.” John 10:28-30

I find it comforting and share it here with the hope that it may likewise bring comfort to others.

The Lord gives you eternal life if you believe in him AND follow his commandments or do you intend to make this passage sound like all are saved or that they are saved by faith alone? I certainly hope you are not.

 

[TK421]

The only thing that concerns me about the growth of the Tridentine is that you have a lot of more devout Catholics regularly attending these Masses if they are in close proximity precisely because they are annoyed with some of the shortcomings of the congregation in the Ordinary. In other words: our best soldiers are relocating from Normady to a senior citizen center in Fiji. I’d like it if some of these EF masses were held irregularly so that the attenders have no choice but to attend an OF or disobey the Sabbath (they would, of course, attend the OF). It would be nice if even country parishes could hold an EF Mass on a monthly basis.

 

[ProVobis]

I wish people would work just as hard at promoting good sacred music in the OF.

I believe that they have, especially in cathedrals and other churches where accoustics warrant it. And FWIW, so have a lot of the Protestants. They even sang a Latin hymn at the Royal Wedding in the U.K.

 

[felsguy]

The Lord gives you eternal life if you believe in him AND follow his commandments or do you intend to make this passage sound like all are saved or that they are saved by faith alone? I certainly hope you are not.

For the benefit of the many followers of this thread (now approaching 2600 views) I thought the passage that I coincidentally happened to come across just a little earlier would be a comforting counterpoise to such a pessimistic outlook, especially as we had just entered this marvellous season filled with the joy, the hope, and the promise of Our Risen Savior. Praying that you may find it so also.

 

[Fransea]

I’m sorry but have not had the time to read every post here, but just want to sound off also.

I have met quite a few Trads and for the most part they are good people. I have read some of the SSPX views. It’s the SSPX views that are being proclaimed even during the masses.

With heavy incense, which is usually a meditative scent, (some with mind altering effects) does make the mass feel more “spiritual”. And, if you go to a mass with less or no incense, you may not have that same effect.

I have heard both sides of the coins. It really comes down to what is in your heart. If you go expecting “better”, you will get better no matter which mass you attend. It’s all in perception.

The mass has had “variations” since day one. There have been “heretics”, there have been saints. Martin Luther had a good reason for doing what he did, but look at the outcome, it divided the church into a cazillion sects. Is that what we really want to see AGAIN!

 

[Lormar]

I’m sorry but have not had the time to read every post here, but just want to sound off also.

I have met quite a few Trads and for the most part they are good people. I have read some of the SSPX views. It’s the SSPX views that are being proclaimed even during the masses.

With heavy incense, which is usually a meditative scent, (some with mind altering effects) does make the mass feel more “spiritual”. And, if you go to a mass with less or no incense, you may not have that same effect.

I have heard both sides of the coins. It really comes down to what is in your heart. If you go expecting “better”, you will get better no matter which mass you attend. It’s all in perception.

The mass has had “variations” since day one. There have been “heretics”, there have been saints. Martin Luther had a good reason for doing what he did, but look at the outcome, it divided the church into a cazillion sects. Is that what we really want to see AGAIN!

Have you attended many Masses at an SSPX chapel? I ask because in my area where they have had a chapel for over thirty years, they stopped talking about their “views” from the pulpit during Mass about fifteen years ago.

Also, the old Mass is a lot more than incense.