Growth in celebration of the Extraordinary Form: Promises or Perils?

[roadsend]

The lack of “charity” concerning the EF is quite high as well. It just doesn’t get punished. Too often charity gets thrown around like people are supposed to accept anything and everything because otherwise they’re being uncharitable. I wonder if even our Blessed Lord would have been called uncharitable when calling people hypocrites and telling them they’re going to burn in the eternal hell fires.

Anyway, people here like to point out the random monastery or church here and there that has a highly reverent OF Mass and that’s great, I wish more places like this existed. I wish everywhere in the world held their Masses like this. However, let’s not be blind to what’s going on all throughout the world. It’s quite frightening and to stand by and say everything is great is just plain wrong.

It’s not just the liturgy though. Anyone who says it’s only the liturgy is lying or ill-informed, but to say that the status quo run of the mill OF Mass in most parishes is not a contributing factor is overlooking a big problem.

Yes, there are tons of factors at work and the traditionalists who only point to the liturgy are overlooking the big picture. Would instituting the EF as the only Mass while leaving everything else the same fix all of the problems in today’s Church? Absolutely not. Would it help? Maybe. Maybe just a more reverent OF Mass in every parish in the world would help. It would probably help a lot actually. There are some traditionalists who would never accept the OF even if it’s similar to the EF in every way possible in the current set of rubrics. It’s just how it is. However, I would venture a guess that a whole lot more would be open to it.

The current state of the Church is pretty grim though. We’re talking about a great apostasy never seen before in the life of the Church from both laity and even some clergy who are publicly disobedient to the Church. The lack of belief in the Real Presence. The absolute ignorance/denial of hell and the realities of sin. The acceptance of homosexual acts/marriage, abortion, contraception, among others. People of all ages, young and old, who outright reject Church teachings and yet continue to call themselves Catholic. Young people just not caring once they hit their late teenage years, many of whom aren’t coming back as they get older. Vocations down to the point where we’re seeing more priests dying than being ordained.The Catholic school system eroding to where clergy/religious no longer teach at these schools, tuition is through the roof, people are no longer enrolling, the education quality has fallen and orthodox Catholicism is hardly taught. Where the culture of death is outright ignored and in some places even encouraged.

So is the liturgy responsible for all of this? Probably in part. The liturgy is where most Catholics get their dosage of Catholicism, so if that’s deficient just imagine the rest of their spiritual lives. However, maybe these traditionalists use the liturgy as the starting point for that reason. If your liturgy shows a side of Catholicism that stresses the sacrifice of the Mass, the Real Presence, the need for Confession, the realities of hell, and teaches against the evils of today’s world then maybe this will flow into the rest of the Church’s life.

Spot on.

 

[Fransea]

Have you attended many Masses at an SSPX chapel? I ask because in my area where they have had a chapel for over thirty years, they stopped talking about their “views” from the pulpit during Mass about fifteen years ago.

Also, the old Mass is a lot more than incense.

To each his own May the good Lord lead you

 

[Lormar]

To each his own May the good Lord lead you

 

[G_S]

The EF is certainly, on average, celebrated more reverently than the OF. Also, the congregation is more reverent. However, part of this is due to the fact that people who want a more reverent, transcendent form of worship would gravitate to a more reverent form, making the reverence even more palpable. Also, when one makes a difficult decision such as a conversion or a move to the EF from the OF it is accompanied by a high level of commitment and of determination to educate oneself. Many people in the pew were poorly catechized and have been told that they are attending a fellowship meal and that they are, most importantly, there to be with other people, etc. If we had only the EF, many examples of sloppy celebration and congregational ignorance would be evident at those Masses as well.

 

[adawgj]

I think tradition leads to a more knowledgeable person because they know of their past and can show true identity.

 

[Eduard_Khil]

With heavy incense, which is usually a meditative scent, (some with mind altering effects) does make the mass feel more “spiritual”. And, if you go to a mass with less or no incense, you may not have that same effect.

Lolwut?

The whole thing about the EF is that it is rational and contemplative and relatively non-emotional, with very little affect to try to make people feeeeel a certain way. After all, it is about us uniting our wills to that of our God, not him uniting His will to us and our whims etc. This is totally counterintuitive to the OF and other types of services which rely MUCH more on feelings and emotions of the people and much less on the rational adoration of God (rock concerts in church, anyone?) That’s why people call certain worship styles (including the OF at times) man-centered instead of God-centeted.

Trippy incense… now I’ve heard everything…

 

[Aramis]

The EF is certainly, on average, celebrated more reverently than the OF. Also, the congregation is more reverent. However, part of this is due to the fact that people who want a more reverent, transcendent form of worship would gravitate to a more reverent form, making the reverence even more palpable. Also, when one makes a difficult decision such as a conversion or a move to the EF from the OF it is accompanied by a high level of commitment and of determination to educate oneself. Many people in the pew were poorly catechized and have been told that they are attending a fellowship meal and that they are, most importantly, there to be with other people, etc. If we had only the EF, many examples of sloppy celebration and congregational ignorance would be evident at those Masses as well.

The thing is, pre-V II, lots of liturgical abuses happened. The same places where people complain that the OF is irreverent often had issues with irreverence in the mass before V II.

The form of the mass makes little difference itself…

… and it’s not like liturgical abuse starts in 1963. I’ve talked with a good number of priests who were ordained before V II, and they do recall just as much abuse then as now. It was then a minority, and is still a minority, but it happens most when the bishop is lax about it.

If the EF becomes fairly common, expect it to reacquire a number of liturgical abuses. That’s the big danger of growth in its celebration: the more priests using it, the more likely abuses will crop up.

 

[Rich_C]

The thing is, pre-V II, lots of liturgical abuses happened. The same places where people complain that the OF is irreverent often had issues with irreverence in the mass before V II.

The form of the mass makes little difference itself…

… and it’s not like liturgical abuse starts in 1963. I’ve talked with a good number of priests who were ordained before V II, and they do recall just as much abuse then as now. It was then a minority, and is still a minority, but it happens most when the bishop is lax about it.

If the EF becomes fairly common, expect it to reacquire a number of liturgical abuses. That’s the big danger of growth in its celebration: the more priests using it, the more likely abuses will crop up.

I won’t gainsay those priests, but certainly there must be a difference in degree.

The Missal of Pope Paul VI seems to leave a lot of leeway. The Missal of Pope John XXIII doesn’t. Every gesture, posture and word of the priest and the other ministers is proscribed, except for during the sermon. Also ad libbing in Latin wouldn’t be very productive. I think you’re overlooking the built-in “safeties” in the old Mass.

 

[GangGreen]

In today’s world there’s not much that priests can do to cheat in the EF without people easily noticing. Everything is clearly laid out and the people learn what goes where quickly.

The main areas where it’s possible are in silent parts of the Mass. The priest can speed through or even skip those parts and the laity won’t notice as much. Of course a fluent Latin speaker who can read the Canon quickly would notice, but the average person probably wouldn’t.

I think one of the main issues is the lack of microphones that many priests downright refuse to use even today. In some churches it becomes extremely difficult and some times even impossible to hear the priest. Some don’t mind this, but IMO it is a weakness of the Low Mass.

IMO if I were going to make changes to the EF I could list a few things off the top of my head.

1. In Churches which are equipped for their use, microphones are required for the Low Mass except during parts that are meant to be silent (e.g., Secret, Canon). This does not apply to Sung/High Masses.
2. Synchronize the Calendar with the current use calendar in terms of Saint Days, added feasts (e.g., Divine Mercy Sunday), and feasts which have changed days. No feasts should be removed if possible.
3. Restore the older Holy Week Masses
4. Restore the 2nd Confiteor in High/Sung Masses (this is not needed in the Low Mass)

That’s about it.
I also wouldn’t be opposed to moving the Kiss of Peace to before the offertory and allowing the people to be engaged with it (Starts with Priest → Deacons → Servers → People). This means the Peace comes from Christ (through His priest) and then to the people. However, a much shorter allotment of time would be allowed than in the OF.

Also adding the extra OT reading wouldn’t be such a bad thing.

I also wouldn’t mind Communion under both species being allowable for special feasts (e.g., Holy Thursday, Corpus Christi).

 

[G_S]

I love the old Mass. It was horrendously difficult to go through all the changes and there was so much damage done. However, it is certainly easy to “cheat” in the EF. (I’m not saying that such a thing is going on.) But, really, so much of the Mass is silent that a priest could easily fudge the words quite a bit without anyone noticing. Not only that, but, with his back to the people, they really can’t see if his gestures are precisely correct. A priest friend of mine told me that he would eliminate many of the phrases in the beginning of the Mass as well as during the Offertory. With the Mass in English, he’s very particular to say Mass with careful attention to the words and the rite. In fact, he’s noted in our diocese for his reverent attention to the Liturgy with no “messing around,” ever. Catholic practice is really on the honor system and the laity, in fact not in law, keeps watch over the Liturgy. Neither the Pope nor the bishop has a policing force. Then again… I just heard from a priest today that I priest I know to be quite heterodox just had his preaching faculties taken away because of a complaint from a lay person.

 

[GangGreen]

Well the silent parts are hard to police. However, in general a microphone would help quite a bit since if it’s audible the people can follow along with their Missal and spot the issues. However, there comes the issue when you get to the Canon and other parts which are supposed to be completely silent. The parish that’s closest to me that does the EF, the priest keeps the microphone on the entire time and I kind of like it. He lowers his voice considerably for the Canon, but you can still hear every word. When I go to the one a bit further away where the priest is much more versed in the EF, he doesn’t use a microphone at all and you can hardly hear a thing. I typically only go there for the Sung Masses which they do every other week (typically).

Also, in other instances well trained servers can spot if the priest is skipping over parts. Of course you can only expect so much from kids, but there are quite a few servers that are in their mid-late teens who could have a much better grasp of what’s going on.

Personally I love the prayers at the foot of the altar and the offertory prayers. I would never change those. I think the current offertory prayers in the OF are way too short and truncated. Also, the prayers at the foot of the altar are one of the biggest parts that I miss when I go to the OF.

 

[otjm]

Lolwut?

The whole thing about the EF is that it is rational and contemplative and relatively non-emotional, with very little affect to try to make people feeeeel a certain way. After all, it is about us uniting our wills to that of our God, not him uniting His will to us and our whims etc. This is totally counterintuitive to the OF and other types of services which rely MUCH more on feelings and emotions of the people and much less on the rational adoration of God (rock concerts in church, anyone?) That’s why people call certain worship styles (including the OF at times) man-centered instead of God-centeted.

Trippy incense… now I’ve heard everything…

Certain people call the OF man-centered because they hav a burr under their saddle. It is no more man-centered than is the Divine mysteries in the Eastern rites, or the EF.

And to say the EF is not emotional is to ignore the constant comments by people who attend it; read some threads. Emotion exudes from them.

And that is not a negative comment. It is simply factual.

 

[Cider]

Peril? Really? How is this concern over supposed peril as a result of the EF not an example of pitting one form against another?

 

[Sunbreak]

I think it’s good for people to experience the Tridentine Mass in the same way I think it’s good for them to go to Eastern Rite Catholic Church and experience those liturgies. I don’t see the Tridentine Mass making a big comeback. I grew up with it and prefer Mass in the vernacular. It’s not the Mass form in the vernacular that bothers me. It’s the silliness that people added to it - rock band music, banners, putting the choir up front so they can be on display like performers, and mostly the noise level. If a Mass in the vernacular is celebrated reverently, it’s fine and there are parishes that don’t have all the added silly stuff and where people don’t act like they’re in some convention hall.

 

[ProVobis]

I think it’s good for people to experience the Tridentine Mass in the same way I think it’s good for them to go to Eastern Rite Catholic Church and experience those liturgies. I don’t see the Tridentine Mass making a big comeback. I grew up with it and prefer Mass in the vernacular. It’s not the Mass form in the vernacular that bothers me. It’s the silliness that people added to it - rock band music, banners, putting the choir up front so they can be on display like performers, and mostly the noise level. If a Mass in the vernacular is celebrated reverently, it’s fine and there are parishes that don’t have all the added silly stuff and where people don’t act like they’re in some convention hall.

OTOH, vernacular has allowed for adlibbing, translation wars, etc., not to mention dividing parishes into a “we have our Mass, they have theirs” mindset and turning up the volume inter alia. The rest you cite comes with the cultural territory. I’ll go with the Latin OF if I can’t get the EF. The Maronite liturgy with a good dose of Arabic and Syriac is a possible alternative.

 

[mo7]

Does anyone else see a risk here? While I think it is fruitful for every Latin Rite Catholic to experience the Tridentine mass and other services, I am concerned that the mere demographic growth in groups celebrating the Tridentine rite could create greater rifts between Catholics – which is the last thing we need right now. Is my approach of trying to build relationships with my local Trads a good approach? The way I see it, mutual understanding is best achieved when “the other” is seen as a friend and brother, and not a theological rival.

I’ve only been attending EF for less than 1 year. I thought at first I’d just see what it was like. But the reverence and the very instructive homilies astounded me and I realized how much of that was missing from the OF I had been attending for years. Also the reverence in the congregation is terrific.
So, I’ve concluded that if indeed Our Lord is present in the eucharist and we reach into heaven at Mass, how could we be any less than the most reverent we can be?
I understand you think there may be permanent divisions caused, but Mass is not a political statement. I don’t go to prove anything about councils or anything else. It was always my practice to go to Mass because that’s what we do, but now I go to the EF it’s a totally different experience: it stays with me all week. Though it has been hard to walk away from the parish in which I have been raising my children and where I am known, I can’t wait to go back to the EF each week.

 

[Eduard_Khil]

Certain people call the OF man-centered because they hav a burr under their saddle. It is no more man-centered than is the Divine mysteries in the Eastern rites, or the EF.

I’m sure that the phenomenon of saddles and burrs is present on both sides of this coin, and probably in direct proportion to the actual attendees of both…as for me, I’m simply not a horse. I will say, however, that there are a lot of well thought-out opinions that run counter to yours. I have no desire to break any rules here, nor do I intend to start some sort of juvenile contest, particularly with someone with so many experiences and contacts here…That there are other opinions is simply factual, and anybody interested in reading about it can probably find lots of info elsewhere on the net.

And to say the EF is not emotional is to ignore the constant comments by people who attend it; read some threads. Emotion exudes from them.

as the new guy I assure you that I don’t know anything about that. I will say, however, that one’s own reaction to the extraordinary form of the Mass can be quite emotional while the Mass itself doesn’t particularly exhibit anything of that nature. My Mass experience at the EF is very limited. I have exclusively attended the EF for only 9 or 10 years, and what is worse is that I have only attended Mass at 5 or 6 different parishes in that time. In my limited experience I have seen many people become very emotional, but it seems to be more a result of grace in the soul than to do with anything external in the Mass.

 

[OraLabora]

I’m sure that the phenomenon of saddles and burrs is present on both sides of this coin, and probably in direct proportion to the actual attendees of both…as for me, I’m simply not a horse. I will say, however, that there are a lot of well thought-out opinions that run counter to yours. I have no desire to break any rules here, nor do I intend to start some sort of juvenile contest, particularly with someone with so many experiences and contacts here…That there are other opinions is simply factual, and anybody interested in reading about it can probably find lots of info elsewhere on the net.

as the new guy I assure you that I don’t know anything about that. I will say, however, that one’s own reaction to the extraordinary form of the Mass can be quite emotional while the Mass itself doesn’t particularly exhibit anything of that nature. My Mass experience at the EF is very limited. I have exclusively attended the EF for only 9 or 10 years, and what is worse is that I have only attended Mass at 5 or 6 different parishes in that time. In my limited experience I have seen many people become very emotional, but it seems to be more a result of grace in the soul than to do with anything external in the Mass.

I understand where you’re coming from, I really do. It has been a couple of years since I’ve been to Mass in my parish. I almost exclusively attend at the Benedictine abbey I’m associated with. The monastic spirituality and the grandeur with which my abbey, belonging to the Solesmes congregation, celebrates (and I really mean “celebrates”) the Liturgy, truly moves me spiritually and aesthetically. When I attend in the parish, I always find that I’m left “feeling hungry” as it were, and put off by the hokey hymns.

But I admit that this is my issue, and in fact is a limitation that I own. You won’t see me questioning the validity of our local parish Mass. When I really pay attention to what goes around me in my parish, I see people, in spite of the music, deeply moved by the Real Presence, and the ability to celebrate it in community. It forces me to get over myself. I see my doctor who lost his son in a car accident seeking answers and comfort in community. I see the old folks just happy to make it there under their own steam. I see new families. I see the life of our community. But I still have this hangup to overcome over the way the liturgy is celebrated. It’s my flaw, not the Church’s.

And even though the monastic liturgy moves me emotionally, there really is no more, nor nor less “emotional” component to the liturgy itself than the EF, that I can discern. The liturgy is the Liturgy, grounded in scripture, couched in tradition, carried out with solemn precision at the abbey. To my Anglican wife, it is “high church” in the extreme. Yet it is Ordinary Form.

It really boils down to how the liturgy is expressed and carried out. But when done correctly, the OF is every bit as rational, reverent and beautiful as the EF. Both are different sides of the same coin and fulfill their role in the Church, from Pontifical OF Masses all the way down to the humblest spoken weekday Mass on a feria in Ordinary Time, passing through the EF, monastic OF, and countless other OF Masses, on the way down to Jesus being present in the humblest of spoken weekday Masses with only a few of the faithful present. He seeks us wherever He can meet us.

Even a Mass with hokey music, to the extent that it does attract some people and brings them closer to the faith, thus fulfills a role; not everyone is moved by Gregorian chant.

The beauty of the Catholic Church, and what contributes to its unity, is its ability to accommodate wildly varying spiritualities around a single Eucharistic sacrifice. We are different members of the Body of Christ; eyes, ears, arms, legs. I’m very attracted to Benedictine and monastic (in general), spirituality but Charismatic… not so much. For others it’s the inverse. That’s the way it is, and that’s a very good thing.

For some, the EF brings them closer to God. For me it’s either a well-done OF Mass in Gregorian chant, or a very early morning, quiet spoken weekday Mass. And the Liturgy of the Hours.

We really should be careful when promoting the things that do move us, that we avoid putting down spiritual values or spiritual preferences that move others of our brethren. Over and above our own spiritual preferences is a larger community that is the “Church”. One thing that to me, has always distinguished us from Protestantism, is our ability to contain and celebrate so many licit and valuable spiritual movements inside the Church instead of going off and forming a new denomination to accommodate them.

To the extent that the EF vs OF difference respects this notion of differences in the same family, then the Church is strengthened.

But when we go off making wild (and unsupported by any kind of rational study) about one form versus the other, to promote our own emotional preferences, such as your unsupported suggestion that the EF is somehow more “rational” than the OF, then we are the Church’s own worst enemy.

And when these divisions come from within, then they are truly a cancer which eats away at the life and soul-saving core of the Church.

 

[ProVobis]

And even though the monastic liturgy moves me emotionally, there really is no more, nor nor less “emotional” component to the liturgy itself than the EF, that I can discern. The liturgy is the Liturgy, grounded in scripture, couched in tradition, carried out with solemn precision at the abbey. To my Anglican wife, it is “high church” in the extreme. Yet it is Ordinary Form.

If there were such a thing, I’d call that a Extraordinaria Subforma Ordinariae Formae. (Extraordinary Subform of the Ordinary Form)

 

[johnnyc176]

The way I see it, mutual understanding is best achieved when “the other” is seen as a friend and brother, and not a theological rival.

That’s true but I notice you haven’t hit upon the animosity that liberal catholics have for Traditional Catholics and the TLM. Isn’t it a two way street?

But I think it is very promising that there is growth in the celebration of TLM.