Guitarist in Drag

[Scottgun]

The indefesible? Take a look at Pathia’s post about the couselors trying to make her adjust to being male, thats indefensible. In your litney of so called logic I see not one shred of science, or compassion for that matter. Please don’t drag abortion into the arguement. In the future on other issues please don’t say it’s what on the inside that counts. Because you obviously don’t believe that.

What’s on the inside counts, but not at the expense of Truth. Bringing abortion into it was perfectly acceptable because it dismantles the argument that as long as one is not a burden on society, anything goes.

 

[aspawloski4th]

What’s on the inside counts, but not at the expense of Truth.

The truth lies on the inside!

 

[Scottgun]

The truth lies on the inside!

Not exclusively. I believe that’s called sollipsism or something like that.

 

[aspawloski4th]

Not exclusively.

But more importantly.

 

[Scottgun]

But more importantly.

Ok, let’s say that deep down on the inside, I am really Napoleon, Is it true?

 

[aspawloski4th]

Ok, let’s say that deep down on the inside, I am really Napoleon, Is it true?

There is only ONE Napoleon, roughly 1/2 the population is female. So no one can say they are Napoleon.

 

[Scottgun]

There is only ONE Napoleon, roughly 1/2 the population is female. So no one can say they are Napoleon.

So what? It’s what’s on the inside that most importantly matters as you say. You can’t appeal to an external fact that there is only one Napoleon without dismantling that.

 

[aspawloski4th]

So what? It’s what’s on the inside that most importantly matters as you say. You can’t appeal to an external fact that there is only one Napoleon without dismantling that.

One Napoleon psychologically also! One of 5 military geniuses in history. Even Jesus said whats on the inside matters more, the soul.

 

[mercygate]

Are you saying physically or mentally? What scientific proof do you have of that? What about those physically male but xx chromesomes? This is 2008, don’t use knowledge from 1948.

How does changing the plumbing help? And do the hormones do anything other than soften your beard and make you emotionally volatile?

What is it about having a gender-identified body and wardrobe that makes it worth going through all of that?

Although I am not gender-conflicted, I score high on male qualities of mind and character (my two highest vocational scores were Catholic priest and Army officer). Buzzing my nob and wearing camo overalls would not do a thing for me.

I may be dense, but if you have a perfectly good body that works, why would you want another one?

 

[mercygate]

Not so in my experience in graduate school that on a hunch due my my own experience, I told the others in my gender identity disorder group to go get a few simple chromosome and hormone tests. Turns out that roughly half of them had identifiable medically acknowledged intersex conditions.

Ah. Now THAT is something to wrap your head around; quite different from “I always felt I was a woman.”

 

[aspawloski4th]

How does changing the plumbing help? And do the hormones do anything other than soften your beard and make you emotionally volatile?

What is it about having a gender-identified body and wardrobe that makes it worth going through all of that?

Although I am not gender-conflicted, I score high on male qualities of mind and character (my two highest vocational scores were Catholic priest and Army officer). Buzzing my nob and wearing camo overalls would not do a thing for me.

I may be dense, but if you have a perfectly good body that works, why would you want another one?

You still fell female inside, as well as I do, in the intrinsic sense of the word.

 

[Scottgun]

One Napoleon psychologically also! One of 5 military geniuses in history. Even Jesus said whats on the inside matters more, the soul.

Again, says who? Your argument collapses the moment you appeal to external facts. That there is only one Napoleon is authoritatively ratified by the external, not the internal. Which is why no one can take me seriously if I insist they address me with, “Oui! Mon général!” Same with a man insisting I call him “Miss.”

Say, I just thought of some fun we can have and make it specific to Catholicism. Let’s take the example of calls to the priesthood. As most of you are aware, there are two calls, the interior and the *exterior. *The interior obviously is the man himself who discerns God is calling him to be a priest. But the exterior call comes from the Church. That is, they interview the man and discern if he is indeed called and, assuming he does the necessary leg work including lots of counseling that we think is so important, they call him and ordain him.

So let’s say I discern a call to the priesthood even though I am married. Let’s say deep down, in my heart of hearts God is calling me to be priesthood. The Church says no, I’m not called. Let’s say (God forbid) I am widowed and my kids are out of the house and the Church still says no. Am I called to be a priest? If so, is the Church wrong? Why?

 

[aspawloski4th]

Again, says who? Your argument collapses the moment you appeal to external facts. That there is only one Napoleon is authoritatively ratified by the external, not the internal.

Say, I just thought of some fun we can have and make it relevant to Catholicism. Let’s take the example of calls to the priesthood. As most of you are aware, there are two calls, the interior and the *exterior. *The interior obviously is the man himself who discerns God is calling him to be a priest. But the exterior call comes from the Church. That is, they interview the man and discern if he is indeed called.

So let’s say I discern a call to the priesthood even though I am married. Let’s say deep down, in my heart of hearts God is calling me to be priesthood. The Church says no, I’m not called. Let’s say (God forbid) I am widowed and my kids are out of the house and the Church still says no. Am I called to be a priest?

Aha trying to trip me up, thats complex and you know it. First we know the church is made up of humans who can make mistakes and not realize you are truely being called. Its possible upon further testing they could change their mind.

 

[Scottgun]

Aha trying to trip me up, thats complex and you know it. First we know the church is made up of humans who can make mistakes and not ralize you are truely being called. Its possible upon further testing they could change their mind.

It’s actually the facts that are tripping you up. See the Church is NOT wrong because it is the external and not the internal that is ultimately authoritative. That the churchmen could make mistakes only strengthens my case because facts are facts, There is an old joke that goes, “If you call a dog’s tail a leg, how many legs does the normal dog have?” Answer: Four, because calling a dog’s tail a leg doesn’t make it so.

I’m going to rest my case at this point and let others have the last word or someone can continue along this line if they want. I think it is good and instructive. Have a good one.

 

[aspawloski4th]

It’s actually the facts that are tripping you up. See the Church is NOT wrong because it is the external and not the internal that is ultimately authoritative. That the churchmen could make mistakes only strengthens my case because facts are facts, There is an old joke that goes, “If you call a dog’s tail a leg, how many legs does the normal dog have?” Answer: Four, because calling a dog’s tail a leg doesn’t make it so.

You say “The Church” in reference to approval to be a priest, you know as well as I know that happens on a somewhat local level. Where in one diocese you will get approval while in another you won’t. Not everyone who goes through therapy ends up getting a sex change. Ive know people after testing they find out they are not transsexual, but that doesn’t mean transsexuals don’t exist.

 

[pathia]

How does changing the plumbing help? And do the hormones do anything other than soften your beard and make you emotionally volatile?

What is it about having a gender-identified body and wardrobe that makes it worth going through all of that?

I may be dense, but if you have a perfectly good body that works, why would you want another one?

Because it just feels wrong. It feels wrong from the very moment you have thoughts. You can tell something is wrong with you even as young as five, you don’t know WHAT it is, but you that you’re different than the other boys and girls. When I was six, my teacher asked me what I wanted to be when I grew up, and I said I wanted to be a mommy. This of course set off the chain reaction that had me in therapy for nearly ten years.

If you want to get into the physical aspects of it. I am literally so disassociated with what I have between my legs, I have to take care of it like a paralyzed person. It is complete severed from my brain, I could attack it with a knife and I would feel nothing. I have been ordered by my doctors to inspect it now and then, to make sure I didn’t cause damage or an infection and not notice it, because an unnoticed infection there can rapidly lead to death.

And before you say, that’s an issue that needs help/medication. I went through 10years of trying to do that, I’ve been on every psychiatric drug on the planet I think, and nothing did a darned thing. If anything, it either just made me a zombie, or settled my mind enough to try completing another suicide attempt.

Also, yes, religious help was done. At the same time, and often by the same therapist. Most were divinity students, rather than therapists. Get a 6-10year old to do 5hours of prayer a day? They did it, somehow, yet it never did anything either.

 

[mercygate]

You still fell female inside, as well as I do, in the intrinsic sense of the word.

Do I? I don’t even know what you mean by that. Would you say that my “ignorance” is because I am completely gender-integrated? Generally I just don’t think much about it.

Again: I’m not a gender conflicted person, so I can’t relate to what you say. DO I “feel” female? And If I didn’t, would I want to have surgery to change it?

I understand there is a building corpus of literature on the disappointing results of sex-change surgery. Aside from the theology; is it really worth it?

 

[pathia]

I understand there is a building corpus of literature on the disappointing results of sex-change surgery. Aside from the theology; is it really worth it?

That would be news to me and everyone I know. The rates of dissatisfaction with the surgery itself might be ‘high’ but the regret level is low. The surgery is not exactly perfect, no one is happy with surgery. Look at how many times actresses go under the knife, because they aren’t happy with previous results.

Regret for transitioning to the other sex? I know of half a dozen cases in the literature, while there are tens of thousands who have not. That’s way less than 1% What are your sources?

Mine are all anecdotal of course, but I’ve seen the stories of course, they’re blasted all over the headlines. However, the fact that there are tens of thousands who don’t ‘return’ completely escapes the media. For instance I’m on a mailing list, there are over 5000 members, and I think 1 instance of someone undoing the change.

I bet lots of quadruple bypasses can fail and have unsatisfactory results, should we stop those too, because some people don’t get improvements in heart function and wish they didn’t have it done in the first place?

 

[mercygate]

Because it just feels wrong. It feels wrong from the very moment you have thoughts. You can tell something is wrong with you even as young as five, you don’t know WHAT it is, but you that you’re different than the other boys and girls. When I was six, my teacher asked me what I wanted to be when I grew up, and I said I wanted to be a mommy. This of course set off the chain reaction that had me in therapy for nearly ten years.

If you want to get into the physical aspects of it. I am literally so disassociated with what I have between my legs, I have to take care of it like a paralyzed person. It is complete severed from my brain, I could attack it with a knife and I would feel nothing. I have been ordered by my doctors to inspect it now and then, to make sure I didn’t cause damage or an infection and not notice it, because an unnoticed infection there can rapidly lead to death.

And before you say, that’s an issue that needs help/medication. I went through 10years of trying to do that, I’ve been on every psychiatric drug on the planet I think, and nothing did a darned thing. If anything, it either just made me a zombie, or settled my mind enough to try completing another suicide attempt.

Also, yes, religious help was done. At the same time, and often by the same therapist. Most were divinity students, rather than therapists. Get a 6-10year old to do 5hours of prayer a day? They did it, somehow, yet it never did anything either.

Well, incompetent therapists may have done more harm than good, but that doesn’t address the core issue.

 

[mercygate]

That would be news to me and everyone I know. The rates of disatisfaction with the surgery itself might be ‘high’ but the regret level is low. The surgery is not exactly perfect, no one is happy with surgery. Look at how many times actresses go under the knife, because they aren’t happy with previous results.

Regret for transitioning to the other sex? I know of half a dozen cases in the literature, while there are tens of thousands who have not. That’s way less than 1% What are your sources?

I don’t have “sources” – which is why I phrased that statement so cautiously. I am willing to stand corrected.

As for those actresses, I believe that repeated plastic surgeries represent a form of body dysmorphic perception that surgery cannot heal. I am not against reconstructive and cosmetic and surgery. I had my Dumbo ears pinned back as a teenager and never regretted it for a moment. The things are still huge and ugly, but they don’t stick out, so I’m not looking for more.

My question – and it IS a question – is what does changing the gender externals accomplish for the person who seeks it?