Gun Control

[Sir_Knight]

If we have a right to defense WITH ARMS, then when are we not justified in possessing them?

 

[tommcguire]

Why is it hard to discuss the call to go beyond using violence to defend oneself or loved ones? Is there alternative ways that avoid violence?

Prayer for Catholics express belief. No where in our prayer do Catholics pray to use violence to make peace. So maybe there are other ways consistent with Catholic belief in how one defends self and others.

 

[Sir_Knight]

Have you been reading what I’ve been saying? Human beings only have two ways to deal with one another: reason and force or fear of force. If you want me to do something for you, you have a choice of either convincing me via argument, or force me to do your bidding under threat of force. Every human interaction falls into one of those two categories, without exception. Reason or force, that’s it. In a truly moral and civilized society, people exclusively interact through persuasion. Force has no place as a valid method of social interaction, and the only thing that removes force from the menu is the personal firearm, as paradoxical as it may sound to some.

The gun is the only personal weapon that puts a 120-pound policewoman on equal footing with a 300-pound criminal, a 75-year old retiree on equal footing with a 19-year old gangbanger. Without a gun to level the playing field, force and the fear of force does enter the equation and there is nothing separating us from uncivilized animals where the young and the strong dominate the weak and the old. Is that the kind of society that you want to live in where somebody younger / bigger / stronger can FORCE you to do their bidding?
__________________“Though defensive violence will always be ‘a sad necessity’ in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men.”– St. Augustine.
“Without doubt one is allowed to resist against the unjust aggressor to one’s life, one’s goods or one’s physical integrity; sometimes, even ’til the aggressor’s death. This act is aimed at preserving one’s life or one’s goods and to make the aggressor powerless. Thus, it is a good act, which is the right of the victim. One is also allowed to kill other people’s unjust aggressor.” – St. Thomas Aquinas, (Dizionario ecclesiastico)
http://forums.catholic-questions.org/picture.php?pictureid=7064&albumid=899&dl=1280679797&thumb=1fud-files.netfirms.com/image/private/misc/CAF04SK.GIFhttp://hgakoc.info/hga/sites/default/files/garland_logo.png

 

[tommcguire]

Catholics believe God gives humans grace. Where does grace fit into the relationships between humans? Ps 71 would seem to give some role to God in the human condition.

O God, give your judgment to the king,
to a king’s son your justice,
that he may judge your people in justice
and your poor in right judgment.

May the mountains bring forth peace for the people
and the hills, justice.
May he defend the poor of the people
and save the children of the needy
and crush the oppressor.

He shall endure like the sun and trhe moon
from age to age.
He shall descend like rain on the meadow
like raindrops on the earth.

In his days justice shall fourish
and peace till the moon fails.
He shall rule from sea to sea,
from the Grat River to earth’s bounds.

Before him his enemies shall fall,
his foes like the dust.
The kings of Tharsis and the sea coasts
shall pay him tribute.

The kings of Sheba and Seba
shall bring him gifts
Before him all kings shall fall prostrate,
all nations shall serve him.

How does a disciple of Jesus Christ serve? Is the only way of combating violence-violence?

 

[Sir_Knight]

You realize that history credits King David with writing this psalm and he is also credited with taking many a life with his sword.

 

[tommcguire]

Was David taking life of other humans made a virtue? Ps 120 suggests help comes from the Lord not the sword. Humans are not alone. Violence is not the only way to find protection.

I lift up my eyes to the mountains:
from where shall come my help?
My help shall come from the Lord
who made heaven and earth.

May he never allow you to stumble!
Let him sleep not, your guard.
No, he sleeps not nor slumbers,
Israel’s guard.

The Lord is your guard and your shade;
at your right side he stands.
By day the sun shall not smite you
nor the moon in the night.

The Lord will guard you from evil,
he will guard your soul.
The Lord will guard your going and coming
both now and for ever.

 

[Sir_Knight]

Don’t know about taking the lives of humans being a virtue but we read in 1 Sam 15:10-23 that God rejected Saul as King of the Jews for FAILING to use the sword in executing the King of Amalek.

 

[tommcguire]

The book of 1 Samuel 15:23 "For a sin like divination is rebellion,
and presumption is the crime of idolatry.
Because you have rejected the command of
the Lord,
he, too, has rejected you as a ruler.

Saul brought back the animals for sacrifice…that is the reason he is rejected.

Check out Ephesians 6: 10-17
Finally, draw your strength from the Lord and from his mighty power. Put on the armor of God so hat you may be able to stand firm against the tactics of the devil. For our struggle is not with flesh and blood but with the principalities, with the powers, with the world rulers of this present darkness, with the evil spirits in the heavens. Therefore, put on the armor of God, that you may be able to resist on the evil day and having done everything, to hold your ground. So stand fast with your loins girded in truth, clothed with righteousness as a breast plate, and your feet shod in readiness for the gospel of peace. In all circumstances, hold faith as a shield, to quench all [the]flaming arrows of the evil one. And take the helmet of salvation and **the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. **

How does this passage from Ephesians fit into the understanding of those who see an absolute need to own a gun (sword0 to be used as a violent means of self defense?

 

[Sir_Knight]

“When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own house, his possessions are safe.” – words spoken by our Lord as recorded in Luke 11:21

 

[Ender]

The Fifth Lateran Council in 1517 raised this concern about attacks on the homes of cardinals:

• … if some rumour leaks out, even if false, that one of the cardinals has been elected as pontiff, the mob attacks his house with arms and contends by force with his servant-guards, while he is still in the conclave, over the despoiling of his house. If an entry is forced by breaking down the doors or digging under the wall, the mob rushes in to plunder all the goods that are there, unless a defence is made by** armed guards.*** (Session 12)

Now if even cardinals are permitted to use weapons in defense of their homes how can it be argued that we are not?

Ender

 

[tommcguire]

Read Luke 11:22-23 *“But when one stronger than he attacks and overcomes him, he takes away the armor on which he relied and distributes the spoils. Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters.” * Seems the conclusion here is not defense using violence, but the disciples call to the work of mision–gathering into the Kingdom of God.

NO DOUBT CHURCH TEACHING ALLOWS DEFENSE WITH ARMS. It does not mean that is the only way to defend self and others.

As a disciple of Jesus Christ committed to proclaiming the Good News of salvation what is the way of being in relationship with the enemy? Is there a way other than violence?

 

[Sir_Knight]

The goal of the Apostles was the spreading of the Word of God. That is what they were chartered with doing and that is the main focus in the Acts of the Apostles and the Gospels – the saving message of Christ. Yet, even though scripture tells us that while the Apostles devoted themselves to prayer and the spreading of the message, they chastised other followers who refused to attend to their daily obligations telling them that those who do not work, shall not eat.

The point being that we can not ignore the duties and responsibilities of the world. Yeah, scripture has it that we are not to worry about what we are to eat or drink but, as I said above, when certain followers wanted to devote all of their time to prayer, they were chastised by the Apostles for not being more practical.

The same with self-defense. WE are to provide that defense for ourselves and for others.If you agree that the Church allows for defense with arms, then what are we disagreeing about?

 

[tommcguire]

Jesus said:: “IF ANYONE WISHES TO COME AFTER ME, HE MUST DENY HIMSELF AND TAKE UP HIS CROSS DAILY AND FOLLOW ME.”

All Catholics are called to follow Jesus. Most of US cannot deny self and take up a cross…that means suffering.

Defense of self, using instruments of violence, does not fit into the picture of denying self and taking up a cross. Yes the Church allows for the use of violence because we are all sinful people, not because it is a model of discipleship.

What Jesus calls us to is far beyond the imagination of most of us. Imagine a world in which there was no violence. How do we get there? With guns?

 

[Ender]

All Catholics are called to follow Jesus.

Catholics are also called to follow the Church, which does not place on us the burden you are trying to impose.

Most of US cannot deny self and take up a cross…that means suffering.

And you are quite free to choose suffering if that is your decision, just as we are free to choose not to suffer.

Defense of self, using instruments of violence, does not fit into the picture of denying self and taking up a cross. Yes the Church allows for the use of violence because we are all sinful people, not because it is a model of discipleship.

If the Church allows it then it does indeed fit into the model of discipleship.

Imagine a world in which there was no violence.

That is indeed a fine thing to imagine … but in the world in which we actually live, violence very much exists and we are not only permitted but encouraged to protect ourselves and others. I don’t really care if you pat yourself on the back for choosing not to defend yourself; I only object to your implications that those who choose differently are deficient as Christians.

Ender

 

[Sir_Knight]

Jesus said:: “IF ANYONE WISHES TO COME AFTER ME, HE MUST DENY HIMSELF AND TAKE UP HIS CROSS DAILY AND FOLLOW ME.”

All Catholics are called to follow Jesus. Most of US cannot deny self and take up a cross…that means suffering.

Defense of self, using instruments of violence, does not fit into the picture of denying self and taking up a cross. Yes the Church allows for the use of violence because we are all sinful people, not because it is a model of discipleship.

What Jesus calls us to is far beyond the imagination of most of us. Imagine a world in which there was no violence. How do we get there? With guns?

I refer you to what I posted earlier in this thread …

Almost exactly three years and one month ago, a woman got a restraining order against her husband. He had taken up drinking and was becoming abusive toward her and fearful for her safety and that of her children, she obtained a court ordered PFA (Protection From Abuse) Order against him.

Learning of the restraining order against him, he decided to teach his wife a lesson and went to her place of employment. Not finding her there, he grabbed one of the cashiers and began beating her demanding that she tell him where his wife was.

Customers gathered to see what was going on but being a big & muscular man, everybody was afraid to get involved. Everyone except for one elderly man who was licensed to carry a firearm. He went to see what all of the yelling was about and when he got there, he saw the man hit the cashier in the face with a hammer. He immediately drew his gun and ordered the man to drop the hammer.

It is unclear whether the man hear this and decided to ignore it or if he was totally oblivious to it but he swung the hammer over his head to hit her a second time and that is when the man with the gun opened fire. It took three shots to the chest before the man dropped the hammer and collapsed himself.

The man with the gun did not wear a uniform. He wasn’t a police off officer or anything in any type of authority. Just a regular citizen with a gun. When the police arrived, he was not charged with any crime and was permitted to leave.

Shaken up by the experience and feeling guilty that he took a human life, he sought out counseling not only with the priests in his parish but also with the priests in the Bishop’s office in the dioceses where he belonged. None of the priests told him that he committed any sin. Instead, they told him that he did a good and righteous thing by opposing evil and saving the life of an innocent individual. If the guy would have hit her on top of the head with the hammer, he could have killed her or turned her into a vegetable. Because of this man’s actions WITH A GUN, that did not happen. As it is, she was left disfigured for life.

By carrying the gun, the man was able to perform this “good and righteous” deed. Not carrying a gun would have prevented him from performing this “good and righteous” deed. How can doing something (carrying a gun) which contributes to being about to perform a “good and righteous” deed; and not doing this act (not carrying the gun) result in that “good and righteous” deed not being performed, be considered wrong? It can’t!

What about if it was you being attacked by this guy with the hammer? Or, your newly wedded bride? Or, your sister, or daughter or mother? Would you have preferred for someone to dial ‘911’ and wait a few minutes for the police to arrive as your face was pounded with a hammer? Or, would you have performed the man with the gun to have acted in the way that he did? Anyone who picks the former, has a incorrect understanding of the Catholic faith and the message of Christ. Period.

 

[tommcguire]

Paul said: “If I must boast, I will boast of the things that show my weakenss. The God and Father of the Lord Jesus knows, he who is blessed forever, that I do not lie. At Damascus, the governor under King Aretus guarded the city of Damascus, in order to seize me, but I was lowered in a basket through a window in the wall and escaped his hands.” 3 Cor 11: 30-33

Here in our area a Pizza delivery man shot and killed a man who is reported to have attempted to rob him. This is an inevitable result of human weakness and sin. The Church allows the use of guns for defense. I know no teaching that says use of violence is righteous act. It is rather looked at as using the principle of double effect. It is a bad act but less evil than the alternative.

Paul’s escape is an alternative to violence. How can those who follow Jesus find non violent ways to prevent the hammer beating of the woman and the pizza man robbery?

 

[Sir_Knight]

Paul said: “If I must boast, I will boast of the things that show my weakenss. The God and Father of the Lord Jesus knows, he who is blessed forever, that I do not lie. At Damascus, the governor under King Aretus guarded the city of Damascus, in order to seize me, but I was lowered in a basket through a window in the wall and escaped his hands.” 3 Cor 11: 30-33

Here in our area a Pizza delivery man shot and killed a man who is reported to have attempted to rob him. This is an inevitable result of human weakness and sin. The Church allows the use of guns for defense.** I know no teaching that says use of violence is righteous act.** It is rather looked at as using the principle of double effect. It is a bad act but less evil than the alternative.

Paul’s escape is an alternative to violence. How can those who follow Jesus find non violent ways to prevent the hammer beating of the woman and the pizza man robbery?

“Without doubt one is allowed to resist against the unjust aggressor to one’s life, one’s goods or one’s physical integrity; sometimes, even ’til the aggressor’s death. This act is aimed at preserving one’s life or one’s goods and to make the aggressor powerless. Thus, it is a good act, which is the right of the victim. One is also allowed to kill other people’s unjust aggressor.” – St. Thomas Aquinas, (Dizionario ecclesiastico)

good (*adjective, *bet·ter, best, noun, interjection, adverb)

1. morally excellent; virtuous; righteous; pious: a good man.
​

 

[Ender]

“Without doubt one is allowed to resist against the unjust aggressor to one’s life, one’s goods or one’s physical integrity; sometimes, even ’til the aggressor’s death. This act is aimed at preserving one’s life or one’s goods and to make the aggressor powerless. Thus, it is a good act, which is the right of the victim. One is also allowed to kill other people’s unjust aggressor.” – St. Thomas Aquinas, (Dizionario ecclesiastico)

Great citation. The question has been asked and now answered.

Is there an English version of that document on line?

Ender

 

[tommcguire]

St Thomas’ great as he is did not give a complete answer.

Go tell the earth to shake
And tell the thunder
To wake the sky
And tear the clouds apart.
Tell my people to come out
And wonder
Where the old world is gone
For a new world is born
And all my people Shall be one.
So tell the earth to shake
With marching feet
Of messengers of peace
Proclaim my law of love
Of messengers of peace
]Proclaim my law of love
To every nation
Every race.
And say The old wrongs are over
The old ways are done
There shall be no more hate
And no more war
My people shall be one.
So tell the earth to shake
With marching feet
Of messengers of peace
Proclaim my law of love
To every nation
Every race.
For the old world is ended
The old sky is torn Apartt.
A new day is born
They hate no more
They do not go to war
My people shall be one.
So tell the earth to shake
With marching feet
Of messengers of peace
Proclaim my law of love

Thomas Merton, Book of Hours

 

[Sir_Knight]

And none of that negates what he said about defense of ourselves and others.