Had vasectomy - so where does it leave me

[Lypher]

On the 14th (I think) of last week the Talk show on Catholic Answers discussed this. The question was that if someone wore a condom after each sex act they would have to seek reconciliation after each sex act, but with a vasectomy they would only have to do it once and that this was not right. The answer on this was that to show honest repentance that using NFP, although not needed, would honor the acceptable method of the Church. I thought it was a nice thought…

 

[tweetymom]

On the 14th (I think) of last week the Talk show on Catholic Answers discussed this. The question was that if someone wore a condom after each sex act they would have to seek reconciliation after each sex act, but with a vasectomy they would only have to do it once and that this was not right. The answer on this was that to show honest repentance that using NFP, although not needed, would honor the acceptable method of the Church. I thought it was a nice thought…

Nice thought but did it come from God?

 

[Sparki777]

Avery smmart man who loves his wife:thumbsup:

Nice thought, but did it come from God?

Look, we’re all fallen people, and NONE of us knows the mind of God. NONE of us can say that God has forgotten the OP’s vasectomy or his attitude about it. NONE of us can say that God hasn’t forgiven the OP’s vasectomy or his attitude about it.

There are many ways the OP could have loved his wife and protected her without getting a vasectomy. It is prudent to recommend the ways that are in keeping with the Catholic Church, NOT the ways that are in 100% opposition to the teachings of the Catholic Church.

If that makes you feel bad/angry/guilty or some other negative emotion, I’m sorry you’re in that situation.

 

[Lypher]

Nice thought but did it come from God?

No, but many people regret the decision of tubal ligation and vasectomies and wish to honor the intent of the Churches prohibition on them. By holding to the tenants of NFP it is a sacrifice in the same vane as fasting. In the end it would be an individuals desire to please God, nothing more.

God Bless You.

 

[c_vet]

When Jesus said to Peter “feed my sheep” did HE mean we should actually act like sheep? because that’s what I am reading. Men who care for their wives and children…have financial awareness, and actually want to dedicate the time they have to the children by limiting the number of children they have…makes rational sense to me, and YOU are CHASTISING them for that!!! so let’s have as may children as God wants us to have…
God gave us a brain and each man is entitled to use it to make wise decisions.

remember when pharisees chatised Jesus for miracles on Sunday? this is the same doctrine rules that are interpreted by man that are losing reason.

if a woman is raped? if there is a high chance of genetic disease? if there is mortality for the mother?

But wait!!! you can just confess and say your sorry to a “Again, seek counsel from a good and holy priest” and its all good!!! where do I find one? I’m not saying they’re not around, but that’s a pretty vague description that your unable to check the credentials on. mabe I’m a good and holy person myself…mabe moreso than the priest?

before you remove this post or bash my post remember the parable of the three sons who got the inheritance: one invested and lost, one invested and gained, and one hid the money in the desert: the one who hid the money was scolded for not taking a chance. I would rather the almighty tell me I F’d up by limiting my offspring than turtleing in a marriage of celebacy. I don’t wanna hear the rythm deal because that definitely does not put my wife in the mood.

 

[tweetymom]

Nice thought, but did it come from God?

Look, we’re all fallen people, and NONE of us knows the mind of God. NONE of us can say that God has forgotten the OP’s vasectomy or his attitude about it. NONE of us can say that God hasn’t forgiven the OP’s vasectomy or his attitude about it.

There are many ways the OP could have loved his wife and protected her without getting a vasectomy. It is prudent to recommend the ways that are in keeping with the Catholic Church, NOT the ways that are in 100% opposition to the teachings of the Catholic Church.

If that makes you feel bad/angry/guilty or some other negative emotion, I’m sorry you’re in that situation.

It doesn’t make me feel anything cause I don’t believe birth control is a sin.

 

[agapewolf]

When Jesus said to Peter “feed my sheep” did HE mean we should actually act like sheep? because that’s what I am reading. Men who care for their wives and children…have financial awareness, and actually want to dedicate the time they have to the children by limiting the number of children they have…makes rational sense to me, and YOU are CHASTISING them for that!!! so let’s have as may children as God wants us to have…
God gave us a brain and each man is entitled to use it to make wise decisions.

remember when pharisees chatised Jesus for miracles on Sunday? this is the same doctrine rules that are interpreted by man that are losing reason.

if a woman is raped? if there is a high chance of genetic disease? if there is mortality for the mother?

But wait!!! you can just confess and say your sorry to a “Again, seek counsel from a good and holy priest” and its all good!!! where do I find one? I’m not saying they’re not around, but that’s a pretty vague description that your unable to check the credentials on. mabe I’m a good and holy person myself…mabe moreso than the priest?

before you remove this post or bash my post remember the parable of the three sons who got the inheritance: one invested and lost, one invested and gained, and one hid the money in the desert: the one who hid the money was scolded for not taking a chance. **I would rather the almighty tell me I F’d up **by limiting my offspring than turtleing in a marriage of celebacy. I don’t wanna hear the rythm deal because that definitely does not put my wife in the mood.

This really misses the big picture. Yes, we should have has many children as GOD wants us to have…he knows better than we do.

And rather having the almighty tell you you messed up…that means you are choosing hell over sex. You are choosing sex over GOD!!!

Are you listening to yourself?

 

[Sparki777]

When Jesus said to Peter “feed my sheep” did HE mean we should actually act like sheep? because that’s what I am reading.

Perhaps that’s because Jesus said: “I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it.” (Mark 10:15)

Yes, we ARE supposed to trust Him and follow Him like little children…or sheep following their shepherd. Because it’s not like He’s a lousy leader.

John: 10:14, 15 “I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me— just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep.”

Men who care for their wives and children…have financial awareness, and actually want to dedicate the time they have to the children by limiting the number of children they have…makes rational sense to me, and YOU are CHASTISING them for that!!! so let’s have as may children as God wants us to have…

Nobody is chastening ANY man for taking care of his family, or even for limiting the number of children that he has according to what he can afford in terms of money, time, etc.

It’s the METHOD that is in question. Self-mutilation is always sinful. Lack of faith and trust in God is detrimental.

When God gave us a brain and each man is entitled to use it to make wise decisions.

But we all must admit that we are ALL capable of making unwise decisions as well. Especially when we allow ourselves to be influenced by our culture, which promotes very small families, lots of birth control methods and a paltry, self-centered view of the sexual relationship (“I am entitled to have as much sex as I want without any fear of having to be responsible for a new baby.”)

if a woman is raped?

I think I can safely say that every person who is participating in this discussion is opposed to rape. I’m not quite sure how sterilization or birth control is an antidote for rape – I think your idea of logic and reason must be quite faulty if you think it is. Care to explain?

if there is a high chance of genetic disease?

The Church has no prejudice toward disabled children, and plenty of compassion and practical help for parents who are caring for children with such disorders.

if there is mortality for the mother?

When the woman’s life is in danger, periodic abstinence really does work. My heart was damaged during the delivery of my last child, so I would be in physical danger if I became pregnant again. She just turned 6 in January and my husband and I have used no other method than natural family planning to avoid what could be a very dangerous pregnancy. And no, I am NOT a “regular like clockwork” kind of woman – every single month seems to be different for me, but we have learned an NFP system that gives us confidence, and it’s been working just fine.

But wait!!! you can just confess and say your sorry to a “Again, seek counsel from a good and holy priest” and its all good!!!

Not quite. You can’t just SAY you are sorry. You actually have to BE sorry.

… I would rather the almighty tell me I F’d up by limiting my offspring than turtleing in a marriage of celebacy.

Good luck with that. Remember that Christ taught us to live a life of self-sacrifice, not self-indulgence, and that He was celibate Himself. There is no sin in periodic abstinence. There is a great deal of sin in having a self-indulgent attitude about sex.

I don’t wanna hear the rythm deal because that definitely does not put my wife in the mood.

Well, speaking as a wife, I think the problem isn’t “rhythm” or NFP – that’s just a data collection system. It’s YOUR job to love your wife every day and to make her feel treasured and wanted, and if you can only love her if sex is the end result, then I think you might be doing something wrong.

 

[Sparki777]

It doesn’t make me feel anything cause I don’t believe birth control is a sin.

I understand. I also have my own views on certain issues that lead me to want to indulge myself instead of living the sacrificial life that Jesus calls us all to live. It can be difficult to change and see the value in what the Church teaches, especially when our society is constantly teaching us the opposite – that these things are okay.

 

[Vico]

I understand. I also have my own views on certain issues that lead me to want to indulge myself instead of living the sacrificial life that Jesus calls us all to live. It can be difficult to change and see the value in what the Church teaches, especially when our society is constantly teaching us the opposite – that these things are okay.

The Collins English Dictionary defines birth control as (the noun) contraception, either artificial or natural prevention of conception, and lists those as:

Artificial:

1. preventing the sperm from reaching the ovum (using condoms, diaphragms, etc.)
2. inhibiting ovulation (using oral contraceptive pills)
3. preventing implantation (using intrauterine devices)
4. killing the sperm (using spermicides)
5. preventing the sperm from entering the seminal fluid (by vasectomy)
   Natural:
6. coitus interruptus
7. rhythm method

So of these, the rhythm method is the only Catholic contraception that can be employed. The implication is that tweetymom believes that all seven methods are non-sinful.

One has to wonder at the words of Jesus in Luke 23: “But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children. For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.”

 

[tweetymom]

The Collins English Dictionary defines birth control as (the noun) contraception, either artificial or natural prevention of conception, and lists those as:

Artificial:

1. preventing the sperm from reaching the ovum (using condoms, diaphragms, etc.)
2. inhibiting ovulation (using oral contraceptive pills)
3. preventing implantation (using intrauterine devices)
4. killing the sperm (using spermicides)
5. preventing the sperm from entering the seminal fluid (by vasectomy)
   Natural:
6. coitus interruptus
7. rhythm method

So of these, the rhythm method is the only Catholic contraception that can be employed. The implication is that tweetymom believes that all seven methods are non-sinful.

One has to wonder at the words of Jesus in Luke 23: “But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children. For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.”

And right you are on what tweetymom believes.

 

[agapewolf]

The Collins English Dictionary defines birth control as (the noun) contraception, either artificial or natural prevention of conception, and lists those as:

Artificial:

1. preventing the sperm from reaching the ovum (using condoms, diaphragms, etc.)
2. inhibiting ovulation (using oral contraceptive pills)
3. preventing implantation (using intrauterine devices)
4. killing the sperm (using spermicides)
5. preventing the sperm from entering the seminal fluid (by vasectomy)
   Natural:
6. coitus interruptus
7. rhythm method

So of these, the rhythm method is the only Catholic contraception that can be employed. The implication is that tweetymom believes that all seven methods are non-sinful.

One has to wonder at the words of Jesus in Luke 23: “But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children. For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.”

except that the collins english dictionary is sorely mistaken…the rhythm method is NOT natural family planning.

and and natural family planning is NOT contraception. It is impossible for a non-action to be against something.

 

[Sparki777]

…natural family planning is NOT contraception. It is impossible for a non-action to be against something.

Exactly. Natural family planning is a data collection system. The data collected can be used to achieve pregnancy just as easily as it can be used to avoid pregnancy. So it’s NOT contraception.

 

[PaulinVA]

This really misses the big picture. Yes, we should have has many children as GOD wants us to have…he knows better than we do.?

What does this mean? Are you saying that God has an ideal number of children envisioned for each couple?

If you believe that, then we could have more children than God wants us to, yes?. Remember, we are co-creators with God. All it takes is sperm and egg - God created the biology but then it works in the real world.

Or, do you believe than when we reach our ideal number that the biology no longer works, and God intervenes to prevent more babies?

 

[KostyaJMJ]

and and natural family planning is NOT contraception. It is impossible for a non-action to be against something.

That argument has always confused me. Where do we get the definition of an English word if not from the way that English speakers use it? The etymology of the word does not determine how the word is used in modern English so it doesn’t really matter if “contra” means against and NFP is not against anything.

 

[luvmykids]

I understand. I also have my own views on certain issues that lead me to want to indulge myself instead of living the sacrificial life that Jesus calls us all to live. It can be difficult to change and see the value in what the Church teaches, especially when our society is constantly teaching us the opposite – that these things are okay.

I think this is a really good homily to read in relation to this subject. This also explains how obedience fits into this and all aspects of our lives. It’s not about our feelings or what WE decide is right. The entire homily is here: wdtprs.com/blog/2010/04/bp-slatterys-sermon-in-washington-dc/

And here is a part of it that I thought would give an idea of how this homily applies to this.

"Do not be surprised then that here at Mass, our bloodless offering of the bloody sacrifice of Calvary is a triple act of obedience. First, Christ is obedient to the Father, and offers Himself as a sacrifice of reconciliation. Secondly, we are obedient to Christ and offer ourselves to the Father with Jesus the Son; and thirdly, in sharing Christ’s obedience to the Father, we are made obedient to a new order of reality, in which love is supreme and life reigns eternal, in which suffering and death have been defeated by becoming for us the means by which Christ’s final victory, his future coming, is made manifest and real today.

Suffering then, yours, mine, the Pontiffs, is at the heart of personal holiness, because it is our sharing in the obedience of Jesus which reveals his glory. It is the means by which we are made witnesses of his suffering and sharers in the glory to come.

[NB] Do not be dismayed that there are many in the Church who have not yet grasped this point, and fewer yet still in the world will even dare to consider it. But you – you know this to be true – and it is enough. For ten men who whisper the truth speak louder than a hundred million who lie. [OORAH!]
If, then, someone asks of what we spoke today, tell them we spoke only of the truth. If someone asks why it is you came here to Mass, say that it was so that you could be obedient with Christ. If someone asks about the homily, tell them it was about a mystery. And if someone asks what I said to the present situation, tell them only that we must – all of us – become saints through what we suffer."

Jesus was obedient even unto death!

 

[Sparki777]

That argument has always confused me. Where do we get the definition of an English word if not from the way that English speakers use it? The etymology of the word does not determine how the word is used in modern English so it doesn’t really matter if “contra” means against and NFP is not against anything.

NFP is NOT contraception because it’s data collection. It simply gives you an idea of what phase of the woman’s cycle the woman is currently in.

The information can be used however the couple wishes to use it – to plan when to have sex to avoid pregnancy or to plan when to have sex to achieve pregnancy. But the data itself is not preventing the sperm from fertilizing the egg. It can’t. It’s just data.

Contraception, on the other hand, actively prevents the sperm from getting to the egg (by killing it, blocking it or making the egg hostile to it) or, if that fails, it provides a mechanism for destroying the zygote that results from fertilization.

So if anybody refers to NFP as contraception, they are misusing the word.

 

[KostyaJMJ]

NFP is NOT contraception because it’s data collection. It simply gives you an idea of what phase of the woman’s cycle the woman is currently in.

The information can be used however the couple wishes to use it – to plan when to have sex to avoid pregnancy or to plan when to have sex to achieve pregnancy. But the data itself is not preventing the sperm from fertilizing the egg. It can’t. It’s just data.

Contraception, on the other hand, actively prevents the sperm from getting to the egg (by killing it, blocking it or making the egg hostile to it) or, if that fails, it provides a mechanism for destroying the zygote that results from fertilization.

So if anybody refers to NFP as contraception, they are misusing the word.

A definition is simply a description of the general use of a word. The general use of the word “contraception” includes NFP so the definition would include NFP. That is why many dictionaries include NFP under contraception. It doesn’t matter if the method has multiple applications; when it is being used to prevent pregnancy it is being used as a contraceptive.

Definitions of words often do change because of misuse. It will start out as a misuse and then it will become the only way the word is commonly used. Just take a look at how “gay” is used now.

 

[Sparki777]

A definition is simply a description of the general use of a word. The general use of the word “contraception” includes NFP so the definition would include NFP.

But the definition SHOULD NOT include NFP because NFP is not in any way, shape or form preventing sperm from reaching an egg or preventing a zygote from surviving. NFP does not meet the definition of contraception, so NFP should not be included in a list of contraceptions.

That is why many dictionaries include NFP under contraception.

The dictionaries that do so are in error, because NFP is data collection only and NOT a form of contraception in any way. Surely you do not believe that dictionary manufacturers are incapable of making mistakes? Likely, they were too lazy to find out what NFP is.

It doesn’t matter if the method has multiple applications;

No, but it DOES matter that the data and the system of collecting data are not contraception. The couple can react to the data however they wish, but the data itself is simply a collection of facts, and NFP is simply a means of collecting those facts. The system of data collection does NOT prevent sperm from meeting egg. The system of data collection does NOT kill the zygote. Likewise the data collected does NOT prevent sperm from meeting egg. The data does NOT kill the zygote.

So, NFP is not contracepting anything.

…when it is being used to prevent pregnancy it is being used as a contraceptive.

No, you’re wrong. The data is just the data, and NFP is simply the data collection system.

Look, if I handed you a list that I compiled in an Excel document of all the Jewish people that were killed during the Holocaust, would Excel software be the cause of their deaths? Would the list generated by the software be the cause of their deaths? No. The software is just the system I used. The data is simply data. The software has no ability to kill anybody. The data has no ability to kill anybody.

 

[agapewolf]

A definition is simply a description of the general use of a word. The general use of the word “contraception” includes NFP so the definition would include NFP. That is why many dictionaries include NFP under contraception. It doesn’t matter if the method has multiple applications; when it is being used to prevent pregnancy it is being used as a contraceptive.

Definitions of words often do change because of misuse. It will start out as a misuse and then it will become the only way the word is commonly used. Just take a look at how “gay” is used now.

We must redeem the language. Just surrendering to a dictionary definition leads, as we see here to so much confusion and misunderstanding. We MUST explain the differences and why the given definition is incorrect.

The medical community has changed the defition of “conception” to implantation. Used to be fertilization. This is how stem cell and abortion laws and “medicines” get passed…because the language is being controlled.

It is NOT preventing pregnancy. It is avoiding pregnancy. Two completely different things.