Hail, Holy Queen Prayer - difficulty as new Catholic

[adf417]

This is very unfortunate, because really it’s a question of changes in how we use the language. Used to be that we used very flowery poetic language; now we are instructed to make our writing practically skeletal in comparison

Consider that a mother can honestly say to her husband: You are my life! But she can also equally honestly say it to each of her children as well!

This is the thing about love: it can stretch infinitely. Words cannot express the totallity of our love. I love each of my children totally, and if I had enough, I would live him or her just as much!

Christ is our Lord and Savior, the Alpha and the Omega, so what we experience in relation to God is the highest. But our loving God does not preclude our loving our spouses, our parents, etc. Our love for God actually makes our love for them better!

It’s a conundrum: the more we love, the more love we have to love with.

I hope this helps

Its the same way with thanks giving. We all agree “ALL thanks be to God” yet we never tire of thanking someone for doing us good deeds or giving us a helping hand so if ALL good comes from God can no human do good?

Peace!!!

 

[pianistclare]

What shall one do if he would be far too uncomfortable taking part in such sayings?

This is one thing that’s kept me out of the CC.

One does not have to hold Marian devotions.
Having said that, most Catholics understand her to be our Mother…mother of the church, mother of us all, as well as Mother of Jesus. As such, we show her love and respect.
Just as we would for a dear friend’s mother. It’s not as big a deal as people make it out to be. Nobody is going to grill you about it. There are some that hold very BIG devotion to Our Lady. I suppose to people who are not Catholic these people seem to be carried away. On the contrary, they have likely experienced her intercession in a very profound way, and are as they say “eternally grateful”.
Mary intercedes for all of her children, whether or not people have a devotion to her or not. Her life in Heaven is spent adoring God and praying for all of His children, you and I included.
When a person goes through RCIA, they probably have a couple of classes around the theology of Mary, and they will introduce people to the rosary, as a good spiritual practice. But if someone doesn’t particularly care for the rosary as a devotion at that point in time, it doesn’t bar anyone form the faith. Indeed, some of the people in our RCIA sessions who are into “into” Mary, after a few years, seems to develop a close relationship with her eventually. If it happens, it’s great. If not, you’re still Catholic. Mary’s life was a prayer. All prayer is good.

 

[dronald]

This is very unfortunate, because really it’s a question of changes in how we use the language. Used to be that we used very flowery poetic language; now we are instructed to make our writing practically skeletal in comparison

Consider that a mother can honestly say to her husband: You are my life! But she can also equally honestly say it to each of her children as well!

This is the thing about love: it can stretch infinitely. Words cannot express the totallity of our love. I love each of my children totally, and if I had enough, I would live him or her just as much!

Christ is our Lord and Savior, the Alpha and the Omega, so what we experience in relation to God is the highest. But our loving God does not preclude our loving our spouses, our parents, etc. Our love for God actually makes our love for them better!

It’s a conundrum: the more we love, the more love we have to love with.

I hope this helps

I’ve had this discussion once before here, and I do disagree as it relates to God. Our love for God should be infinitely greater than anything else. My evidence would be Luke 14:26 “If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple.”

 

[dronald]

One does not have to hold Marian devotions.
Having said that, most Catholics understand her to be our Mother…mother of the church, mother of us all, as well as Mother of Jesus. As such, we show her love and respect.
Just as we would for a dear friend’s mother. It’s not as big a deal as people make it out to be. Nobody is going to grill you about it. There are some that hold very BIG devotion to Our Lady. I suppose to people who are not Catholic these people seem to be carried away. On the contrary, they have likely experienced her intercession in a very profound way, and are as they say “eternally grateful”.
Mary intercedes for all of her children, whether or not people have a devotion to her or not. Her life in Heaven is spent adoring God and praying for all of His children, you and I included.
When a person goes through RCIA, they probably have a couple of classes around the theology of Mary, and they will introduce people to the rosary, as a good spiritual practice. But if someone doesn’t particularly care for the rosary as a devotion at that point in time, it doesn’t bar anyone form the faith. Indeed, some of the people in our RCIA sessions who are into “into” Mary, after a few years, seems to develop a close relationship with her eventually. If it happens, it’s great. If not, you’re still Catholic. Mary’s life was a prayer. All prayer is good.

I love and respect Mary, Peter, Paul, Ignatius, my mother, etc as well. I just can’t wrap my head around saying the words said that have been quoted by the OP. I simply cannot do it.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

It is referring to Mary because she is our Mother. There is no other creature of God that will ever compare to her.

• She is ‘our life’ because she gave Jesus to the world, Who gives us all eternal life through the Holy Eucharist.
• She is ‘our sweetness’ because she loves and cares for us even more than our real mother, in the same sweet way that she cared for Jesus.
• She is ‘our hope’ because she always leads us to Jesus, Who is our only real hope.

We have many advocates in Heaven, including all the Saints. Our primary Advocate is always Jesus, but we also have the Holy Ghost Who Jesus sent us to also be our Advocate. Since He is also the Spouse of Mary, she shares in that role, although she does it (as a human being) by appealing to God for us.

Throw all of your doubts out the window! Mary is very powerful in Heaven because God has given her that power. She does not usurp the Power of God. He gave it to her because He loves her. He abundantly rewards those who do His will in this life, above their own, and no one has ever cooperated with God’s will more than Mary did.

I’m not sure where this version comes from, but I’ve never heard it before, personally. I really don’t think there’s anything really wrong with it, it’s just different than the one I learned.

This is the version I know, but it still leaves off the last part, which is:
“Pray for us, O Holy Mother of God, that we may be made worthy of the Promises of Christ.”

I think that final line says it all, and puts Mary’s position in the proper perspective of the whole prayer. She appeals to Jesus for us. This prayer is meant to ask her for her intercession with Him. It appeals to her as His Mother, as well as our Mother. This is why Jesus gave her to us to be our true Mother in Heaven, who continually appeals to God for all of her children on earth.

As I said above, we have many advocates in Heaven.

Mary is the ‘most gracious’ of all God’s children. The angel Gabriel said she was “full of Grace”, meaning that she has been given every Grace of God, and she is free to dispense all of those Graces as she chooses. All we have to do is ask her and she will give them to us, if it’s in agreement with the will of God. So, we should never be afraid to ask. As long as we always remember that Mary is still only a creature of God like the rest of us, then there is no problem with our appealing to her for help. Since she is also human, like us, we can more easily identify with her than we can with God, Who is a million times greater than all of us put together. God can be very intimidating, but Mary is not. She’s our “Mom”.

Very good interpretation. Also we are the poor banished children of Eve and Adam, and Mary is the new Eve and Christ the new Adam.

 

[friardchips]

For me; two episodes in the Bible make this hard to accept which I haven’t found any answers that seem reasonable to me.

One: “Who are my mother, brothers, sisters” Jesus had a perfect opportunity to speak a special Marian doctrine but instead put many on an equal playing field to his mother.

Two: “Blessed rather are those who hear the Word of God and keep it.” Again, another opportunity for Jesus to put a high focus on Mary and He turned it around.

The above question is a good one. And not only that, but there are two accounts of the ‘True Disciple of Jesus’. I look to Luke’s version because he seems to have more intimate knowledge of Jesus and Our Lady and it ties in with the other gospel accounts very comfortably.

In the True Family of Jesus, Jesus looks to his mother and the disciples who have gone to find Him with His Mother. This is the point here: the relevance is the disciple going with Jesus’ mother, to find Him. She is the one who keeps the Word of God. As it says throughout Scripture: ‘and she (Mary) pondered these things in her heart.’

In other words, those who love Jesus, are those who try and find Him by being with His Mother. Then she leads us, just as she found Him in the temple preaching, to her son.

This understanding ties in with all the other instances of Mary with Jesus.

She always knows where to lead us that we will discover Christ her son.

I love what St Francis posted, by the way!

 

[friardchips]

I’ve had this discussion once before here, and I do disagree as it relates to God. Our love for God should be infinitely greater than anything else. My evidence would be Luke 14:26 “If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple.”

This Bible quote mentioned is talking about frowning upon our natural family and our lives -not disliking heaven, but disliking this life for the sake of heaven.

 

[friardchips]

As such, we show her love and respect. Just as we would for a dear friend’s mother. It’s not as big a deal as people make it out to be.

Almost…rather than ‘a dear friend’s mother’, more a ‘love for our own mother.’ So it is a big deal.

… they have likely experienced her intercession in a very profound way, and are as they say “eternally grateful”.

I agree, I think it is a thank you - the realisation that we need her intercession and will continue to need it as will everyone else.

Mary intercedes for all of her children, whether or not people have a devotion to her or not. Her life in Heaven is spent adoring God and praying for all of His children, you and I included.

Who can argue with that!

If it happens, it’s great. If not, you’re still Catholic. Mary’s life was a prayer. All prayer is good.

I love what you said here: ‘Mary’s life was a prayer.’

And still is.

 

[pianistclare]

I love and respect Mary, Peter, Paul, Ignatius, my mother, etc as well. I just can’t wrap my head around saying the words said that have been quoted by the OP. I simply cannot do it.

You don’t have to do it. It’s ok.
I understand what you are saying.
I will say that honoring Mary takes nothing away from Jesus. How can it? She is His mother.
I think this is where people have trouble. They believe that we give more to Mary and thus slight Our Lord.
It’s not that way, but I understand your issue with it.
peace.

 

[friardchips]

A difficulty in understanding is not necessarily bad. Often it can be chance of renewal and greater love. I am learning, you are learning; in fact, if anyone says they know everything they would no doubt soon be shown something they didn’t.

 

[Mintaka]

Jesus invites all His followers to share in His life, which means that many things that can be said about God can also be said about Mary, or the Church, or even about all individual baptized Christians. This isn’t presumption; it’s how Jesus set it up through His death and resurrection.

Look at Job 9:8. Job is praising God, “Who alone spreadeth out the heavens, and walketh upon the waves of the sea.”

What do we see in the Gospels? Yes, Jesus walks on the sea and shows us that He is God. But then Peter asks Him to command him, a normal guy, to walk over on the waves – and Jesus does, not offended a bit at Peter asking to share a divine prerogative. And Peter does walk on the waves, even if only for a little moment.

Job also says in the same chapter that only God moves mountains - but what does Jesus tell us about faith and mountains?

We are Christ’s Body. We can do impossible things, in Him. And Mary leads the way in being made like her Son, by being a member of His Body.

There’s nothing wrong with being uncomfortable with the heights and depths of strong prayer language. But if it’s a traditional prayer of the Church, approved and praised by many, assume it’s good stuff and wait to understand better. It’s amazing what info you find out as the years go by. (Although asking like this, or looking stuff up, is also a good idea!)

 

[dronald]

This Bible quote mentioned is talking about frowning upon our natural family and our lives -not disliking heaven, but disliking this life for the sake of heaven.

I believe it’s also to show that we must love God more than anyone or anything. Another example:

Matthew 10:37 Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

We must love Jesus more than anyone, including Mary.

 

[dronald]

You don’t have to do it. It’s ok.
I understand what you are saying.
I will say that honoring Mary takes nothing away from Jesus. How can it? She is His mother.
I think this is where people have trouble. They believe that we give more to Mary and thus slight Our Lord.
It’s not that way, but I understand your issue with it.
peace.

I can’t imagine attending a Church consistently and never being able to take part in their rituals.

 

[whatsmyname]

I, too, have trouble with Mary. I think most Protestant converts find that the most difficult part of Catholicism to understand and accept. I do interpret “most gracious advocate” to mean our very gracious advocate or our most gracious above the other saints and other Christians we ask to pray for us, not above the Lord. I don’t know if that is correct or not, but that’s how I see it.

Yesterday, I was reading the chapter on Mary in the Knights of Columbus free online catechism course. Here’s a little bit of what it had to say, and I hope it is okay to post excerpts of their work:

“Comparing her with Eve, they call Mary the ‘Mother of the living’ and frequently claim: ‘Death through Eve, life through Mary’”143 (CCC 494).”

and

“The “Hail, Holy Queen” prayer also addresses Mary as “our hope.” Our hope of what? Of moral perfection, for one thing. If no merely human being were ever sinless, like Mary, we would think avoiding sin was impossible; we would limit sinlessness to divinity, and despair of humanity. Mary gives humanity hope, a hope for perfection that will be fulfilled for each of us in Heaven. Mary is a sign that God still has high hopes for us.”

and

“We revere all saints with dulia (human reverence and devotion), and Mary with hyperdulia (the greatest human reverence and devotion), but worship and adoration (latria) is given to God alone. There is only a difference in degree between Mary and us, but a difference in kind between Mary and Christ. Therefore there is also a difference in degree between the reverence paid to Mary (hyperdulia, supreme human respect) and the reverence paid to other saints (dulia), but a difference in kind between our reverence to Mary and our worship (latria) to Christ. The same is true of their work: her intercession, the saints’ intercession, and the intercession of our friends who pray for us on earth, are different only in degree; but there is a difference in kind between Christ’s unique intercession and any human’s. Ours – and Mary’s – is totally dependent on him.
Devotion to Mary fosters and purifies our adoration of God rather than polluting it. Devotion to idols does not foster adoration of God, but devotion to his saints does. For a saint is like a stained glass window that makes us more aware and appreciative of the divine light. And the holier the saint, the better the window, the more our devotion to that saint fosters our adoration of God. Thus devotion to Mary “’greatly fosters this adoration’”516 (CCC 971).”

 

[friardchips]

I believe it’s also to show that we must love God more than anyone or anything. Another example:

Matthew 10:37 Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

We must love Jesus more than anyone, including Mary.

Dronald, thanks for the response! In response to your post:

I can’t see how your Bible quote relates to Mary.

For the reason that Our Lady points us to the Son and has such a burning desire for us to love Him. If we were to worship her, then she would soon sort us out so we have things in the proper order. God does not tolerate idols so she doesn’t either.

However, she does wish us to love her too because she loves us. The Bible is all about relationship. We are to love one another.

Ultimately, if you love Jesus so much, then I believe that this is because Our Lady has already been praying for you, because salvation comes with Mary as our advocate to her Son, whether or not you recognise her influence in your life.

For all any of us know, we might be on this thread because of Our Lady’s wish to move some of us closer to her Son; at the request of a prayer, here we all are And in turn, this will be because God already wished it.

I would prefer to put it that a devotion or special love for Mary in complete acceptance of her as Mother would speedily hurry one’s path to Jesus and solidify it. But she will be praying for you, never-the-less.

In terms of measuring love. I can’t. God is our ultimate end so it is good that we might love Him most but in all probability we won’t fully come to realise our love for Jesus until we’re singing to Him in Heaven. And if we love God, we love everyone else in Heaven too for they are all sweet and noble. God has willed it this way. And our love for each other would be different.

As I think it has been mentioned: to honour our Mother is to love the Son, and she will help us to love Him more. God is our ultimate end but He wishes to love His and our Mother too. We don’t go to Church to worship Mary, and yet, Christ has given her to us for us to depend upon. How can we depend upon her if we don’t pray to her for help?

What I am trying to say, is that Mary is our key to Christ’s heart.

.

 

[Telstar]

For me; two episodes in the Bible make this hard to accept which I haven’t found any answers that seem reasonable to me.

One: “Who are my mother, brothers, sisters” Jesus had a perfect opportunity to speak a special Marian doctrine but instead put many on an equal playing field to his mother.

Jesus taught us lessons in many different ways. The most effective method was by His own example. I’m pretty sure that everyone that was present when He asked that particular question was well aware of His deep love and devotion to His Mother, as well as to the rest of His extended family. So, when He spoke those words, people understood just how much we all must be willing to sacrifice in order to follow Him. He is God.

This lesson was meant to teach us that we should always love God more than we love any human being on earth, even our own family. It was certainly not meant to be a slight against His Mother or any other family member. It was meant to be an extreme example of how much we should all love God. I believe it also reinforced the lesson of Abraham and Isaac, that all of the Jews would have been well aware of at the time. Abraham was ready and willing to actually sacrifice his only beloved son, Isaac, because God asked him to. That was the pertinent lesson that Jesus repeated by His own example.

Two: “Blessed rather are those who hear the Word of God and keep it.” Again, another opportunity for Jesus to put a high focus on Mary and He turned it around.

No one did the will of God more perfectly than Mary did. Unlike Abraham, she was forced to silently watch her own beloved Son suffer and die the most horrific death we could ever imagine, because she knew that it was the will of God. She knew that it was necessary for the salvation of all mankind. That didn’t make it any easier for her to bear, witnessing the whole ordeal. No other human being on earth has ever sacrificed as much as she did for God. So, God has rewarded her for all of the personal suffering and sacrifices that she bore while she walked the earth, as well as for her great devotion and fidelity to Him, by giving her tremendous honor and great power in Heaven. That’s what God always does for all those who really love Him. He rewards them according to the measure of their love for Him.

 

[johnnyc176]

I have seen different variations of this prayer, but at first I thought the words, “Hail, Holy Queen, Mother of Mercy, our life, our sweetness and our hope” was referring to Jesus who is “our life, our sweetness and our hope”; but in other versions of this prayer, it is clearly referring to Mary. Can someone please help me to understand this better as to how we refer to Mother Mary as our life, our sweetness and our hope?

Also, the part that troubles me most is where she is referred to as our “most gracious Advocate”. Is this “most” to be understood as “very” gracious? It troubles me because it seems to hold her as being a more gracious advocate than that which Jesus Christ is for us.

I do love Our Mother, and I want to get rid of these doubts and fears that still plague me from being raised in a very anti-Catholic, Protestant background.

Thank you!

I would suggest reading The Glories of Mary. It is a defense of devotion to Mary against the Jansenists by St. Alphonse Liguori using the prayer Hail Holy Queen. Two chapters about your particular concern. You can find it online for free but if you wished to purchase it is not very expensive at all.

 

[friardchips]

To be honest, dronald, Telstar’s post gives a better response to your question than mine, when writing of the link with Abraham’s sacrifice.

 

[Telstar]

I believe it’s also to show that we must love God more than anyone or anything. Another example:

Matthew 10:37 Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

We must love Jesus more than anyone, including Mary.

Catholics are well aware that we must all love Jesus more than we love Mary. But, Jesus gave us His Mother so she could take us by the hand and teach us how to love Jesus even more than we already do. So, it’s a win/win situation to go to Mary, because she always takes us straight to Jesus. How could that ever be a bad thing?

 

[Telstar]

To be honest, dronald, Telstar’s post gives a better response to your question than mine, when writing of the link with Abraham’s sacrifice.

Thank you.

I think all of your responses have been very good, as well.