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FCEGM
Guest
“Utter lack”? OTC, the crucifixion as related in St. John’s Gospel is quite full; your remark reminded me of this from another Catholic forum:
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Vaclav
Guest
It should also be noted that Mary is often symbolically parallel with the Church.
So, in my humble opinion, one could view the Salve Regina quite literally as:
So, in my humble opinion, one could view the Salve Regina quite literally as:
And also see within this wonderful praise for Our Lady the role of the Church, the bride of Christ - our life, our sweetness, and our hope.
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kaycee
Guest
There is no theological inference in John’s Gospel at the crucifixion. Jesus is plainly providing for his Mother.
To infer anything else is allegory and typology run amuck.
I can more easily infer that St. John is now the universal pastor and Mary is the Church, from this part of John’s Gospel.
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Randy_Carson
Guest
Kaycee-
Where does the Bible say that EVERYTHING a Christian can and should know about the faith is contained in the Bible? (It doesn’t.)
What is the pillar and bullwark of the truth - the Bible or the Church? (The Church.)
If the Church is the pillar and foundation of the truth, aren’t we Catholics correct in listening to the Church’s teaching on these matters? (Yes.)
Since you cling to traditions that are not contained explicitly or implicitly in the Bible, why do you deny us the same right?
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YADA
Guest
Latin, English and congugated words…
Mary always points to her Son, Jesus. Yes we can take our sorrows to her, and ask that she present them to Jesus, her Son. However, what does/can Mary do with them without Jesus? Ultimately, Mary is our sweetness and hope because she brought forth the Sweetnes and Hope of the World, Jesus.
When Mary [and the honor we offer to her] stops pointing to her Son, Jesus we are on shaky ground. I know the latin/english version
Hail, Holy Queen enthroned above, O Maria!
Hail, Mother of mercy and of love, O Maria!
Triumph all ye cherubim!
Sing with us ye seraphim!
Heaven and earth resound the hymn!
Salve, salve, salve, Regina!
The prayer states that Mary is the mother of Mercy and of Love. The angels rejoice because of Jesus’ atoning act of salvation. Mary’s “yes” [her fiat] set the stage upon which salvation came into the world…in that respect we honor Mary…without Jesus we cannot “fly to” Mary for her intercession and aid. Mary’s intercession and aid mean nothing without the concurrance of Jesus.
Our life, our sweetness here below, O Maria!
Our hope in sorrow and in woe, O Maria!
Triumph all ye cherubim!
Sing with us ye seraphim!
Heaven and earth resound the hymn!
Salve, salve, salve, Regina!
And when our last breath leaves us, O Maria!
Show us thy son Christ Jesus, O Maria!
Triumph all ye cherubim!
Sing with us ye seraphim!
Heaven and earth resound the hymn!
Salve, salve, salve, Regina!
I’ll bld the portion of the prayer you did not “Show us thy son, Christ Jesus”
Mary, our mother [at the command of Jesus], Mother of the Church [because she bore our redeemer without which there would be no church], the first and most blessed disciple, hnd maid of the Lord and spouse of the Holy Spirit - always points to [and leads us to] the Son, Jesus Christ, the Savior of the World
Mary always points to her Son, Jesus. Yes we can take our sorrows to her, and ask that she present them to Jesus, her Son. However, what does/can Mary do with them without Jesus? Ultimately, Mary is our sweetness and hope because she brought forth the Sweetnes and Hope of the World, Jesus.
When Mary [and the honor we offer to her] stops pointing to her Son, Jesus we are on shaky ground. I know the latin/english version
Hail, Holy Queen enthroned above, O Maria!
Hail, Mother of mercy and of love, O Maria!
Triumph all ye cherubim!
Sing with us ye seraphim!
Heaven and earth resound the hymn!
Salve, salve, salve, Regina!
The prayer states that Mary is the mother of Mercy and of Love. The angels rejoice because of Jesus’ atoning act of salvation. Mary’s “yes” [her fiat] set the stage upon which salvation came into the world…in that respect we honor Mary…without Jesus we cannot “fly to” Mary for her intercession and aid. Mary’s intercession and aid mean nothing without the concurrance of Jesus.
Our life, our sweetness here below, O Maria!
Our hope in sorrow and in woe, O Maria!
Triumph all ye cherubim!
Sing with us ye seraphim!
Heaven and earth resound the hymn!
Salve, salve, salve, Regina!
And when our last breath leaves us, O Maria!
Show us thy son Christ Jesus, O Maria!
Triumph all ye cherubim!
Sing with us ye seraphim!
Heaven and earth resound the hymn!
Salve, salve, salve, Regina!
I’ll bld the portion of the prayer you did not “Show us thy son, Christ Jesus”
Mary, our mother [at the command of Jesus], Mother of the Church [because she bore our redeemer without which there would be no church], the first and most blessed disciple, hnd maid of the Lord and spouse of the Holy Spirit - always points to [and leads us to] the Son, Jesus Christ, the Savior of the World
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kaycee
Guest
Joshua 1:8, Rev 22:18 We cannot add or subtract from the Word Of God. Is it not obvious that doctrine binding upon the soul is only bound to God Breathed Revelation? Not sure how much clearer it needs to be?
Do you know of any God Breathed Revelation that tells us to look for Major doctrine outside of God Breathed Revelation?
Certainly, and the Truth is the Word of God. John 17:17 “Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth”. The church upholds God’s word. The testimony of Jesus, the Faith once and for all delivered to the saints.
Any church holding up the Truth without adding to it is authortative and should be listened to.
Traditions, such as???
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Vaclav
Guest
It was not necessary. For the Hebrews the Queen is not the husband of the King, but his mother. Look at 1 Kings 2:19, who sits in the throne to the right of Solomon?
Jesus is the King of Kings (which I’m sure you will even agree with) and Mary is his mother. It only stands to reason that she is the Queen. It need not be said.
The Aramaic word is “Gebirah,” which is something akin to Queen Mother. We are not saying that Christ is King and Mary is Queen and they are equals in some human form of monarchy. Jesus is God. Mary is simply honoured for what she is - Christ’s Mother, which also makes her gebirah or Queen.
Why? There was no need as explained above.
Yes, at Pentecost.
Yes. James 5:16
Of course not, it happened after the events of the New Testament.
The Epistles are written with specific focuses on issues in specific churches (with a few exceptions), there was likely no need to write of Mary in the Epistles we have today.
You mean other than the wedding feast at Cana, Mary at the foot of the Cross? Mary spoken of in Revelations 12:1? Mary in Acts chapter 1:12-14?
That doesn’t even include Mary’s references in the Old Testament.
Revelations 1:12 - Other than the obviousness of what I answered to your first query, the fact that she is wearing a crown certainly makes this even more understandable.
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YADA
Guest
If Joshua implied no addition or subtraction in the manner you believe, we would not have as many Hebrew Texts nor any of the New Testament [any scriptures beyound the book of Joshua.]Joshua 1:8, Rev 22:18 We cannot add or subtract from the Word Of God. Is it not obvious that doctrine binding upon the soul is only bound to God Breathed Revelation? Not sure how much clearer it needs to be?
Do you know of any God Breathed Revelation that tells us to look for Major doctrine outside of God Breathed Revelation?
The Book of Revelation and the exhortation to not add or subtract can only be recognized as refering to the Book of Reveation and not beyond it. When that book was penned we did not have the “Bible” as we have it today.
And Luther one of the leaders of the protestant reformation did not even consider it worthy of its place in the cannon. Protestants have removed passages and books from Christian Scriptures, does that concern you?
Scripture tells us that not every thing is written down. The passage in Timothy that discusses scriptures [known from youth] cannot be refereing to New Testament Books aas they were not all yet written at the tie and the ‘from your youth’ implies before or very early in the ‘christian’ period…
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clmowry
Guest
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Randy_Carson
Guest
Paragraph 6. Mary - Mother of Christ, Mother of the Church
963 Since the Virgin Mary’s role in the mystery of Christ and the Spirit has been treated, it is fitting now to consider her place in the mystery of the Church. "The Virgin Mary . . . is acknowledged and honored as being truly the Mother of God and of the redeemer. . . . She is ‘clearly the mother of the members of Christ’ . . . since she has by her charity joined in bringing about the birth of believers in the Church, who are members of its head."502 "Mary, Mother of Christ, Mother of the Church."503
**I. MARY’S MOTHERHOOD WITH REGARD TO THE CHURCH **
**Wholly united with her Son . . . **
964 Mary’s role in the Church is inseparable from her union with Christ and flows directly from it. “This union of the mother with the Son in the work of salvation is made manifest from the time of Christ’s virginal conception up to his death”;504 it is made manifest above all at the hour of his Passion:
Thus the Blessed Virgin advanced in her pilgrimage of faith, and faithfully persevered in her union with her Son unto the cross. There she stood, in keeping with the divine plan, enduring with her only begotten Son the intensity of his suffering, joining herself with his sacrifice in her mother’s heart, and lovingly consenting to the immolation of this victim, born of her: to be given, by the same Christ Jesus dying on the cross, as a mother to his disciple, with these words: "Woman, behold your son."505
965 After her Son’s Ascension, Mary "aided the beginnings of the Church by her prayers."506 In her association with the apostles and several women, "we also see Mary by her prayers imploring the gift of the Spirit, who had already overshadowed her in the Annunciation."507
**. . . also in her Assumption **
966 "Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, so that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son, the Lord of lords and conqueror of sin and death."508 The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin is a singular participation in her Son’s Resurrection and an anticipation of the resurrection of other Christians:
In giving birth you kept your virginity; in your Dormition you did not leave the world, O Mother of God, but were joined to the source of Life. You conceived the living God and, by your prayers, will deliver our souls from death.509
963 Since the Virgin Mary’s role in the mystery of Christ and the Spirit has been treated, it is fitting now to consider her place in the mystery of the Church. "The Virgin Mary . . . is acknowledged and honored as being truly the Mother of God and of the redeemer. . . . She is ‘clearly the mother of the members of Christ’ . . . since she has by her charity joined in bringing about the birth of believers in the Church, who are members of its head."502 "Mary, Mother of Christ, Mother of the Church."503
**I. MARY’S MOTHERHOOD WITH REGARD TO THE CHURCH **
**Wholly united with her Son . . . **
964 Mary’s role in the Church is inseparable from her union with Christ and flows directly from it. “This union of the mother with the Son in the work of salvation is made manifest from the time of Christ’s virginal conception up to his death”;504 it is made manifest above all at the hour of his Passion:
Thus the Blessed Virgin advanced in her pilgrimage of faith, and faithfully persevered in her union with her Son unto the cross. There she stood, in keeping with the divine plan, enduring with her only begotten Son the intensity of his suffering, joining herself with his sacrifice in her mother’s heart, and lovingly consenting to the immolation of this victim, born of her: to be given, by the same Christ Jesus dying on the cross, as a mother to his disciple, with these words: "Woman, behold your son."505
965 After her Son’s Ascension, Mary "aided the beginnings of the Church by her prayers."506 In her association with the apostles and several women, "we also see Mary by her prayers imploring the gift of the Spirit, who had already overshadowed her in the Annunciation."507
**. . . also in her Assumption **
966 "Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, so that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son, the Lord of lords and conqueror of sin and death."508 The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin is a singular participation in her Son’s Resurrection and an anticipation of the resurrection of other Christians:
In giving birth you kept your virginity; in your Dormition you did not leave the world, O Mother of God, but were joined to the source of Life. You conceived the living God and, by your prayers, will deliver our souls from death.509
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kaycee
Guest
I don’t recognize theology based on “it only stands to reason” More examples of anthropomorphic rationalization.
I will have to remember that when discussing Faith “alone”.
Most of the time when the Apostles write, they’re topics are major doctrinal teachings AND they repeat themselves on important things many times as one would expect. It is clearly a non issue for them and only surfaces several hundred years later.
Sorry, I forgot your a literalist. question should have been to Mary alone.
Think she lived longer than John, who lived into his 90’s and also wrote his epistles very late?
Amen.
And how does this make her queen, dispencer of all graces?
Rev 12:1 is not about Mary. In verse 6 "the woman fled into the desert to a place prepared for her by God where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days. That never happend to Mary. The verse is speaking of the nation of Israel.
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TarlsQtr
Guest
That is no more rude than John 19:26 and is borderline blasphemy. Jesus honors His mother as He is commanded to do. To believe otherwise, you have to believe that He is both breaking a commandment AND being rude at a moment where He is providing for her well-being. Again, one is borderline blasphemy and the second is illogical.
Jesus uses the word “woman” with great honor as it references to Genesis 3:15.
I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.
God Bless,
Jeff
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Mannyfit75
Guest
She did fled to the desert. When Herod seek to destroy the male child, Joseph, Mary, and the baby Jesus went to Egypt. That is what is how Catholic intepret the Passage. Also the numbers cannot be taken too literally.
Catholics understand the literal, symbollic meaning of the Book of Revelations.
The woman is Israel as well as Mary. We know the woman is Mary because the woman in Rev 12:1 gave birth of a male child who will all nations with an iron rod. The child was taken up to his throne by God. This symbolizes Jesus’ ascension who now sits at the Right Hand of God.
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cor
Guest
Some Catholic theologians have interpreted that verse to be a reference to her Immaculate Conception and preservation and immunity from all sin through her life. So interpreted it in that way, metaphorically, it was something that happened to Mary.
Some say the woman is Israel; others, the Church; others, Mary. It’s interesting that John didn’t specify who it was; he was just writing down things as he received them, apparently.
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LilyM
Guest
Good heavens, are you serious?
How about the Presentation of Jesus in the Temple (where Simeon prophesies regarding Mary’s future, indicating that her role is to be a continuing one),
how about the flight into Egypt?
How about when Jesus is lost in the Temple at the age of 12?
How about the Wedding of Cana?
How about the Crucifixion?
How about her inclusion among those present at Pentecost?
This is more mention than most of the Apostles get, kaycee! Some ‘utter lack’, indeed, you really need to study your scripture better.
Is the doctrine of the Trinity mentioned in the Bible? The nature of Jesus - being true God and true Man yet united in a single person? Sunday worship? The canon of scripture itself (ie which books are to be included or excluded)? The idea that Divine Revelation ended with the Apostles?
These are all points of great theological importance, yet none of them is really more than implied (some not even) in scripture, same with all the Marian doctrines.
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promethius95945
Guest
Of course you don’t recognize theology based in reason, you’re a protestant!
I kid, I kid… please forgive me my jest.
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Mannyfit75
Guest
Now that is funny.Of course you don’t recognize theology based in reason, you’re a protestant!
I kid, I kid… please forgive me my jest.
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NotWorthy
Guest
*With all the numerology going on in Revelation (there are like a million “7’s” in the book), does anyone know what’s the symbolism behind 1260 days. I mean, it’s half of 7 years. Is there anything special about that fact?
*
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kleary
Guest
Scripture alone- been through this before- the Church most certainly derailed when she taught us the list of books that are “Scripture”. The names of the books which are “Scripture” is something you believe in yet it is not in Scripture…so your premise here is false and must be rejected.Strange that you now want to employ the ECF’s in support of non biblical doctrine, where before you claim that their “opinions” don’t represent official church teaching.
Fortunately, I have the Scripture to see where the early church stayed on the tracks and where it derailed. I dont have to wonder.
Thankfully, God Breathed Scripture has authority over any and all writings as the ECF’s would agree.
To say the “Church Derailed” means that the gates of Hell overcame the Church. That it remained buried for 1500 years until Luther, Calvin and Zwingli showed up. Your Protestant theories never existed until then, as the ECF’s prove to us.
Ken
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japhy
Guest
In reply to your first point, why is Jesus providing for his mother? Perhaps because she had no other children…
In reply to your second point, typology is rife throughout Scripture. Why do you think the Holy Spirit inspired Luke to record so accurately the words of the angel Gabriel to Mary? Gabriel told Mary the Holy Spirit would overshadow her, and the Greek word Luke used (episkiazos) is the same word found in the Septuagint in Exodus, describing the presence of God in the cloud over the Ark of the Covenant.
Typology is the key to Scripture because the New Covenant was hidden in the Old Covenant and is revealed through the Incarnation, Birth, Life, Crucifixion, Resurrection, and Ascension of our Lord Jesus Christ!
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