Hail Mary

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a_mirror_dimly said:
Earlier however you suggested telling the two apart by listening to what was said. Surely that’s an external action, no?

I suppose my frustration is that the definition seems rather circular. Not even a heretic can worship Mary because if Mary is praised it’s veneration and if God is praised it’s worship. Something about those definitions feels lacking.
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Hi mirror,
Can you tell the difference between God and Gods creatures.

That is the difference between the ‘Worship due to God alone’ and the worship of Gods creatures, veneration.

The human heart simply Loves.

It must worship with love - love God with your whole heart, with your whole soul with all your strength and with all your mind.
Love your neighbour as yourself.

The two greatest commandments on which everything hangs.

The human heart simply Loves.

It loves from the same heart, its neighbour.

And it Loves from the same heart, its God.

And it must love both.

The hearts Love of God, the worship due to God alone, is directed to God.

The hearts love of its neighbour, its directed to its neighbour.

We must do both.

Yet we know where and to whom we are directing our Love.

Some protestants, strangely, may worry about worshipping idols by accident.

Most people, however, know who it is they are in Love with.
 
[ahem…cough, cough…ahem…]

Zooey has been doing her homework…I knew I had seen this picture that Reformed posted, somewhere:


Click on this:

jesus-is-lord.com/mary.htm

…but only if you are sure you have taken your blood pressure meds, your anti-acid reflux meds, etc…:rolleyes:
Oh, yes. **That :mad: :mad: **one again…

Honestly, Reformed. I know you’re upset. I know things are going the way you hoped for. But posting pictures from that snakepit???
:tsktsk: Shame on you!!!:tsktsk:

Did you really think you’d get away with that? Some of us live to do research…
 
 
from Refromed
“And that is the key of our differences. This is also the major issue and driving force of the Protestant Reformation. And, this is the reason why Protestants and Roman Catholics cannot ever unite on this side of glory… The Holy Scripture has to remain the final authority from God because all forms of magisterium is made up of fallible men. And we know all Christians are not perfected in this life. Holy Scripture is God-breathed and not Sacred oral and written tradition.”

Don’t you find it the least bit contradicitng that you vest everything in the Bible as the solo Word of God, when, indeed it was the Catholilc Church which determined which books would be compiled into the Bible? No Protestant Church ever tried to reevalulate all scriptures and determine what the Bible should include. They all deferred to the RCC. Therefore, inadvertently, all Protestant religions concede the RCC was empowered to make the decision of what should be included in the Bible. Yet, you deny that the RCC was given authority by Christ to act as a manager for the people, i.e., the Keys to the Kingdom as in ancient Jewish governing practice (It’s in OT, Isaiah or Ezekiel).This is the incredible blindness of the Protestant religions. I’m not dissing them. They’re honorable genuine deeply religious people but they’ve been led astray and now there’s 500 yrs. of wandering in place. Re: the magesterium, yes, it’s made up of fallible men. However, what they teach in the name of Christ is infallible — so often misunderstood. They might be evil, sinful, etc. but still when the magisterium teaches it is led by the Holy Spirit, as Jesus himself told the Apostles after the Resurrection. The Holy Spirit will come to you to guide you
 
a_mirror_dimly said:
Earlier however you suggested telling the two apart by listening to what was said. Surely that’s an external action, no?
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Yes. But why are you focusing on the words of the prayer, as opposed to the intention of the person speaking them. I suppose that a “pagan” could utter the Hail Mary with the intention of giving adoration to Mary (assuming she is Divine, contrary to christian teaching.) This does not mean we must abandon the very scriptural and sound prayer because it may be abused.
mirror dimly:
I suppose my frustration is that the definition seems rather circular. Not even a heretic can worship Mary because if Mary is praised it’s veneration and if God is praised it’s worship.
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How in the world do you come to that conclusion? As I pointed out above, that is not true. Someone who does not understand Christian doctrine could very easily turn a Marian prayer into an improper act of adoration. That’s why I say you are focusing too much on the externals. But one can assume that a Catholic saying a Hail Mary is honoring Mary and adoring her Son - because that is the Catholic intention of the prayer. Why would you assume that a Catholic would be acting contrary to what his or her faith teaches them to be true?
mirror dimly:
Something about those definitions feels lacking.
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That’s because you are looking only to the external expression of what is essentially an internal discipline.

I guess if a person wears a pin stating, “I’m Catholic: I worship God alone.” You can assume they are complying with Catholic doctrine and limiting their adoration to God alone when they say the Hail Mary, or some other form of Marian prayer. Is that the sort of demarcation that would satisfy your concern? Or is it your contention that Catholics should consider low church protestant sensibilities when praying, lest their actions be confused by those who would never take the time to learn the Catholic doctrines underlying the practice and the reasons for those doctrines?

Peace,
-Robert
 
ROBIN97 said:
Then these same Roman Catholics don’t know their Bible. By the way, do you honor your mother? Don’t you suppose Jesus wants His mother to be honored?
How could anyone treat her as just a receptacle. “Hail Mary - Full of Grace” said the Messenger of God. Only Highly Respected People were given the Honor of “Hail” in those days. The Angel considered Mary Special. Surly so should we!

Did He not do what His mother asked Him to do at the feast of Canna?
He addressed her as “Woman”. A title of Respect in the time of Jesus.
Twisted by ungodly people to mean just the opposite today!

Do you realize that God actually asked Mary if she would be the Mother of Jesus [Our God]? She was to become the New Ark - of the New Covenant of God with His People. People were Killed just for touching the First Ark. It was considered Holy. How much more Holy must have been the Ark of Jesus - Mary- have been if God chose her out of all the woman of Israel? “Mary - Full of Grace” . And yes-“most favored” - the least accurate of translations - to avoid “Full of Grace”.

Do you realize that the Mother of our future Savior is actually alluded to in Genesis? Have you done your homework, or just accepted your own interpretation of the Bible?

What did Jesus mean when he said from the cross, “John, behold your mother.” ? Do you believe that John was Mary’s son too? Wouldn’t this have been redundant - and in Jewish culture - insulting for Jesus to hand over his mother to a stranger if he had a natural brother to take care of her? Wake up people.

John was her New adopted family and because Jesus is our Brother, so are we. Can you imagine what a Blessing that is for Us? The Mother of Jesus is our Mother too!

We are commanded to Honor our Father and Mother. Mary is My Blessed Mother - and Yours if you can find it in your heart to accept her - and love her along with her Son. Can you accept Jesus offer from the Cross to John to “Behold thy Mother”. One of the most beautiful and meaningful versus in the Bible I believe. Will you but give it a moments thought. Would you think about joining Jesus’ whole family including His Mother and the saints? Paul in Hebrew said we are surrounded by “a Cloud of Witnesses” - the saints in heaven - Communing with us. Mary is certainly one of them. And we are invited to join with Her and the other saints to Worship Jesus - Our God. Ask Mary to Pray with you in a crisis as you would ask your earthly mother and friends. She will. She is always there to help as your mother would help in a crisis. Like all the saints in heaven. She is not dead. They are more Alive in God than we ever can be here on earth. To understand. Learn what Prayer really means.

For 16 centuries it meant not only to worship but - “to ask”. As in “Pray tell” [Please] tell me", [another word twisted like “Woman”] was changed to mean -exclusively by the Protestant revolutionaries -to mean only “to worship” To make the Catholics to idolatress. It worked beautifully. Many people, including some Catholics took the bait readily because it made their new beliefs acceptable -though new inventions 16 centuries after the Apostles and Christ.

Mary became the mother of John - and of everyone in the whole world. Johns, Mine, Yours, Everyones. We are family. Shouldn’t we act like it? Can we not ask for our Mother in Heaven to pray for/with us? I think it would break her and her Sons heart for us to ignore her prayers for us. She always points to Jesus and says “Do as He Says”. As she did at Canna to
inaugurate the beginning of His Ministry. Do you realize the significance of what happened there? He made 150 Gallons of Wine at His mother’s request, to keep the party going for the rest of the week! That is devotion.

It is not just “Jesus and Me”. We are invited to a Family Banquet. Will you be willing to greet the Mother of God - The Queen Mother of Jesus when you arrive at that Banquet. Will you snub her? And the other saints (everyone in heaven) likewise because its just Jesus and Me?

What will Jesus think? How will Jesus feel when he sees his mother and brothers treated that way at his Banquet? I’ll bet His mother will be the guest of honor. Can you think of a better candidate?

What will Jesus do if he finds out that you do not feel his mother is worthy of the Great honor and respect she deserves. We know that all generations should call her Blessed and honor her accordingly. Shouldn’t they?

I know my mother prays for me. How much more must the Mother of Jesus -My Brother and yours care for me and you. Should we not love her as we love our natural mother? Are we not commanded to do so to Everyone - including Mary - by the Son of God Himself?

The Bible is Not the final Word. Jesus is. "The Word was made flesh and dwelt among us. [John 1:1] The Bible is an Inerrant Holy Tool Infallibly put together for all mankind by the Catholic Church. The Catholic Churches gave it to you.

However, The Bible is not the pillar and foundation of the truth; not the final word. The Church is. The Bible itself says so. And the Church says that Mary is Blessed - and so does the Bible. When Elisabeth, Mary’s cousin found out that Mary was pregnant with Jesus she said “The mother of my Lord” - The Mother of My God. [Luke} Where does that leave people who do not respect her by showing her no honor. - yes - even vilify her!

We honor and Revere the American Flag. Can we not at least honor Jesus’
Mother. Good Catholics and Protestants do that. Don’t you thing everyone should? Can we not ask The Blessed Mother “to Pray for us Sinners now and at our death”? Who better to do so than the Mother of God?

**ROBIN
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In regards to you last comment do we find anyone praying to Mary at the hour of their death in Scripture? Is there even any allusions to this kind of thing?
 
Pixie_Dust said:
Jesus Christ on the cross.
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Wow! 👍 I’m blown away.
[25] So the soldiers did this. But standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother, and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Mag’dalene.
[26] When Jesus saw his mother, and the disciple whom he loved standing near, he said to his mother, “Woman, behold, your son!”
[27] Then he said to the disciple, “Behold, your mother!” And from that hour the disciple took her to his own home. (Jn 19:25-27)
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The disciple that Jesus loved took Mary into his own home… If we are to also be the disciple Jesus loves, and follow in His footsteps, do we not also take her into our home, and behold her as our mother, just as we are brothers and sisters in Christ, her Son?

Peace,
-Robert
 
Pixie Dust;4241985]
Originally Posted by justasking4
In regards to you last comment do we find anyone praying to Mary at the hour of their death in Scripture? Is there even any allusions to this kind of thing?
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Pixie Dust
Jesus Christ on the cross.
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View attachment 4213 Are you saying Jesus was praying to Mary while on the cross?
 
justasking4 said:
Are you saying Jesus was praying to Mary while on the cross?
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Yes, He prayed to his beloved disciple to take His Mother as his own, then He prayed to His mother to go to His beloved disciple’s home. Incidentally, it is Sacred Tradition that tells us that the beloved disciple is John. The Scriptures don’t mention his name.
 
Pixie_Dust said:
Yes, He prayed to his beloved disciple to take His Mother as his own, then He prayed to His mother to go to His beloved disciple’s home. Incidentally, it is Sacred Tradition that tells us that the beloved disciple is John. The Scriptures don’t mention his name.
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It is important to understand what exactly a prayer is. Prayer can be defined to mean many different things. One such definition is an earnest or urgent request. When Jesus petitioned his mother to behold her son, he was indeed praying to her.
 
Stylteralmaldo said:
It is important to understand what exactly a prayer is. Prayer can be defined to mean many different things. One such definition is an earnest or urgent request. When Jesus petitioned his mother to behold her son, he was indeed praying to her.
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I concur.
 
Stylteralmaldo said:
It is important to understand what exactly a prayer is. Prayer can be defined to mean many different things. One such definition is an earnest or urgent request. When Jesus petitioned his mother to behold her son, he was indeed praying to her.
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Where in Scripture is it ever referred to when 2 living people on this planet are conversing with each is it considered a prayer?

When you talk to your friends and relatives do you and they consider this prayer?
 
“…pray for us now and at the hour of our death.”

don’t know much about rosary yet but…
aren’t Christians ALREADY dead?
Not sort of dead but very dead,

Colossians 3:3
“For you are dead
and your life
is hid
with Christ in God”
 
justasking4 said:
Where in Scripture is it ever referred to when 2 living people on this planet are conversing with each is it considered a prayer?
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Matthew 18:20
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justasking4:
When you talk to your friends and relatives do you and they consider this prayer?
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Of course. Everything I do in Christ I do as a prayer to God. Whether it is enjoying a nice conversation with my wife, helping my friend with his flooded basement, or listening to my daughter practice her piano lessons for the first time. These things I do not do by myself. The people participating in the event, whatever it may be, is my prayer with them. Prayer is a participation with Christ when two or more are gathered. Prayer is more than something that occurs in a church setting. It is more than a formal petition or thanksgiving directly invoking our Lord. It is also being Christ to every person we encounter in our lives. That is prayer.
 
Stylteralmaldo said:
Matthew 18:20

Of course. Everything I do in Christ I do as a prayer to God. Whether it is enjoying a nice conversation with my wife, helping my friend with his flooded basement, or listening to my daughter practice her piano lessons for the first time. These things I do not do by myself. The people participating in the event, whatever it may be, is my prayer with them. Prayer is a participation with Christ when two or more are gathered. Prayer is more than something that occurs in a church setting. It is more than a formal petition or thanksgiving directly invoking our Lord. It is also being Christ to every person we encounter in our lives. That is prayer.
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How old are you?
No disrespect but, Prayer is "a devout petition to God or an object of worship."or "prayers, a religious observance, either public or private, consisting wholly or mainly of prayer. "
I also found this meaning,“the section of a bill in equity, or of a petition, that sets forth the complaint or the action desired.”
But no where did I find a definition like what you mention above.
Please tell me where you find a reference to support your definition of “prayer”.
I’m here to learn.
May the Holy Spirit guide us in all we do and say.
 
Reformed said:
Homework completed because Rome is not a biblical church.
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This is true. The Catholic Church is founded upon Christ, and existed whole and entire before a single word of the NT was ever written. Those ecclesiastical communities that have rejected the Teaching of Jesus that comes to us through the Apostles have lost the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets. All they have left in is the partial revelation that can be found in Scripture, which is why these communities are all deficient in some manner.
 
justasking4 said:
It doesn’t. A person can easily read all the Scriptures on Mary in less than a half and hour and not find any such thing.
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Such a statement reveals a narrow minded conception that all of what is True is limited to Scripture. 🤷

Do you imagine that Mary would pray less than we do? I think people minimize the value of spending time daily for 30 years with the Son of God. Do you not pray the scripture:

“God desires all men to be saved, and come the knowledge of the Truth.”

Dear Lord, may all come to be saved, and to the knowledge of Your Truth. Why is such a prayer so inconceivable?
justasking4 said:
You say catholics don’t worship Mary. What are the characteristics of worship?
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Well, for Catholics, one of them is that worship is reserved for God alone.

A better question might be, what praise is appropriate for a created being?
justasking4 said:
Are you saying Jesus was praying to Mary while on the cross?
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Such a statement reveals a narrow understanding of prayer. Jesus was giving her directions.
 
hays1122 said:
How old are you?
No disrespect but, Prayer is "a devout petition to God or an object of worship."or "prayers, a religious observance, either public or private, consisting wholly or mainly of prayer. "
I also found this meaning,“the section of a bill in equity, or of a petition, that sets forth the complaint or the action desired.”
But no where did I find a definition like what you mention above.
Please tell me where you find a reference to support your definition of “prayer”.
I’m here to learn.
May the Holy Spirit guide us in all we do and say.
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We can all use a dictionary, so there’s no need insinuate that anyone here is being immature just because they do not follow the letter as closely as they do the spirit.

Was Christ Jesus not about the Father’s work except in the act of prayer? Or were all of His actions to the glory of the Father? Or is it your contention that prayer is only supplication? What about praising the name of God with a song and magnifying Him with thanksgiving? (Psalm 69:30)

Everything is before God. All things are within His purview. When you fold your hands (or leave them open) and bow (or prostrate), does He hear you more clearly? Or does He hear you at all times, because He knows you better than you know yourself?

I think there is something to be said for the idea that the ideal in Christian life is for our every action to be a prayer to God, at all times, situations, and environments.
 
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