Hail Mary

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Pixie Dust;4324606]Which is exactly why Joseph had a mind to cancel his engagement with Mary when he first learned she was pregnant! At that time, an engagement was just as binding as the actual marriage and he thought her guilty of adultery, and by all rights could have had her stoned to death for it. Mary was impregnated by the Holy Spirit of God, so it wasn’t a physical encounter but something physical sure happened in her womb! Jesus! 😃
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I agree with your last statement. It was also not a sexual act either as it is between man and wife.
Impregnation results when a couple participates in the “marital” embrace, whether or not an actual marriage ceremony has happened.
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Not all impregnations mean a marriage is present. Just as i noted earlier a unwed woman can become pregnant but that does not mean she “becomes married” when it happens. Conception of a child has nothing to do with making a couple married.

Even if they’re not legally married, they have physically joined as one flesh, as God designed married couples to do.
The Lord God did not become “one-flesh” with Mary at the conception of Jesus nor was He married to Mary.
 
happilycatholic said:
Originally Posted by justasking4
Impregnation does not make one married. We see this all the time in our society. Its called unwed mothers.

happilycatholic
Okay so now Mary is not only an idol for the purpose of idol worship, but an unwed mother.

I personally would not want to be treading that ground.

😦
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This is the kind of ground catholics do need to tread. It is a serious matter to claim that Mary is supposedly the spouse of the HS when in fact the Scriptures never ever make such claim.
 
Lampo said:
I’d have to see how the Church came up with this title and what She means by it in order to answer your question.

Since you use the Scriptures to tell you that the writer of the Book of Luke is Luke, please provide chapter and verse that says this.
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Why would it matter since we already agree that the gospel of Luke is already accepted as inspired-inerrant Scripture?
 
justasking4 said:
This is the kind of ground catholics do need to tread. It is a serious matter to claim that Mary is supposedly the spouse of the HS when in fact the Scriptures never ever make such claim.
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They do, you just fail to see it. It’s clear and plain as day to me. 🙂
 
justasking4 said:
Why would it matter since we already agree that the gospel of Luke is already accepted as inspired-inerrant Scripture?
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It matters because it demonstrates that you do not go by sola scriptura as you claim. You are the one who said that you use the Scriptures to tell you that the writer of the Gospel of Luke is Luke. How do you do this? Were you lying?
 
Yes, and funnily enough the current Catholic teaching has been clear, and plain as day, to all Christians for several centuries before some men decided to ‘change the teaching’ to something different
 
justasking4 said:
This is the kind of ground catholics do need to tread. It is a serious matter to claim that Mary is supposedly the spouse of the HS when in fact the Scriptures never ever make such claim.
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Respectfully…

blah, blah, blah catholics need to blah, blah, blah.

What, read the scriptures that were written by catholics placed in the Bible by catholics and safeguarded for generations by catholics?

Done. Now what’s your point.

🤷
 
justasking4 said:
I agree with your last statement. It was also not a sexual act either as it is between man and wife.
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I never said it was, but there is martial language used in Luke.
Not all impregnations mean a marriage is present. Just as i noted earlier a unwed woman can become pregnant but that does not mean she “becomes married” when it happens. Conception of a child has nothing to do with making a couple married.
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Before wedding ceremonies became popular, a man would (after bargaining with her father for the bride-price) take a woman and make her his wife. How do you think he did this?
The Lord God did not become “one-flesh” with Mary at the conception of Jesus nor was He married to Mary.
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The Holy Spirit overshadowed her and she conceived Christ in her womb. “That’s all I’ve got to say about that.” 😉
 
Pixie_Dust said:
I never said it was, but there is martial language used in Luke.

Before wedding ceremonies became popular, a man would (after bargaining with her father for the bride-price) take a woman and make her his wife. How do you think he did this?

The Holy Spirit overshadowed her and she conceived Christ in her womb. “That’s all I’ve got to say about that.” 😉
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JustAsking is trying to reconcile Christ’s conception with human conception. No can do. It’s a Mystery.

Us catholics just take some things on faith.
 
happilycatholic;4324621]JustAsking:
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You cannot prove that we worship Mary unless you can prove she’s an idol. You can’t prove she’s an idol because we don’t worship Mary.
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This is why we must define what an idol is. Here is one way it is used in Scripture–an image or representation whether corporeal or imaginary or some other thing. This is why these titles of Mary are so important to this discussion. When we look at the only source of her life and those around her we never find them referring to her as Treasure of the World Undefiled, Seat of Wisdom or Queen Unconquered. From these and other titles and sayings follows all kinds of hymn to be sung to her or prayers to her in context of a worship service.
You can chase your tale all you want, there’s no proving either way. It’s what’s in your heart. I don’t worship Mary with my heart and soul therefor there is no worship at all. I don’t put Mary before God in my heart and soul therefor there’s no idolitry. Period.
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Do you think that the people who were rebuked in the OT for worshipping idols thought they were not worshipping the true God?
Most people who deeply love Mary don’t pray to her or pray the rosary. They simply have a deep and devoted love for her.
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i’m aware of this. The problem is that its not grounded on Scripture but on speculations of men since God never commanded this devotion to Mary.
Gosh, even by Protestant standards I would only be slightly misguided.
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You can post that list of titles all you want. On my list Jesus won’t see “unwed mother” or “idol”. 😊
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I agree you won’t see these things. What you will find are things that should never be said of a created being.
 
happilycatholic said:
JustAsking is trying to reconcile Christ’s conception with human conception. No can do. It’s a Mystery.

Us catholics just take some things on faith.
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Faith in what? If there are no facts to support your faith then you have faith in the speculations of men.
 
Okay. Totally off subject. How in the heck do you get an avatar or just a picture in your signature for goodness sake before I explode into tiny pieces! :confused:
 
happilycatholic said:
Okay. Totally off subject. How in the heck do you get an avatar or just a picture in your signature for goodness sake before I explode into tiny pieces! :confused:
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In your Profile, go to “Edit Signature” and then scroll down to Signature Picture. You can use something you have on your computer or something from the Internet. Mine is from my Confirmation on 8-12-07.
 
justasking4 said:
It is a serious matter to claim that Mary is supposedly the spouse of the HS when in fact the Scriptures never ever make such claim.
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The Scriptures do not make a number of claims. That doesn’t mean the Truth cannot be somewhere outside of Scripture. See, you are boxed in with your false theology of sola scriptura. You are only getting a piece of the pie. Why not treat yourself to the entire pie?
 
justasking4 said:
Faith in what? If there are no facts to support your faith then you have faith in the speculations of men.
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Faith in Jesus Christ, who founded a Church and promised that the gates of hell would not prevail against it. Faith that when he breathed on His Apostles and promised them the Holy Spirit would guide them into all Truth, he wasn’t lying. Faith that the Holy Spirit has continued to guide those upon whom the Apostles laid their hands, and their successors for the last 2000 years.
 
justasking4 said:
This is why we must define what an idol is. Here is one way it is used in Scripture–an image or representation whether corporeal or imaginary or some other thing. This is why these titles of Mary are so important to this discussion. When we look at the only source of her life and those around her we never find them referring to her as Treasure of the World Undefiled, Seat of Wisdom or Queen Unconquered. From these and other titles and sayings follows all kinds of hymn to be sung to her or prayers to her in context of a worship service.

Do you think that the people who were rebuked in the OT for worshipping idols thought they were not worshipping the true God?

i’m aware of this. The problem is that its not grounded on Scripture but on speculations of men since God never commanded this devotion to Mary.

I agree you won’t see these things. What you will find are things that should never be said of a created being.
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Okay, this is a start.

First, renaming an object doesn’t make it worship. Calling Mary the Seat of Christ instead of the Mother of Christ doesn’t prove an argument for worship. When you look at scripture the Isrealites knew exactly what they were doing because they renounced God. They knew they were not worshipping the True God because Moses had revealed the True God to them as the Holy Spirit. The True God had no “image” because that had not been revealed to them. So the image they CREATED and were worshipping AS THEIR god was an idol. Believe it or not, it would be the same as if we created a likeness of God and stood before it and prayed. Besides they created it of what they thought was most valuable, Gold. They valued Gold over God.

If you’ll notice we don’t create images of God and then pray to them. Ever ask yourself why? Idolitry. We can’t comprehend the image of God so any image our minds could imagine would be graven.

We did not create the image of Mary any more than we created the image of Jesus. She is human and we see her as such. We do not call her by any name that is synonymous with the Father, the Son or the Holy Spirit. To say that is like saying you can’t refer to your own father as “father”. That’s foolish and a weak argument at best. She does rank higher than any seraphim, cherubim or any other angel.

Who are you the closest to besides God? Your mother. Christ’s Mother is the closest to him so it is right that Mary is highly venerated.
 
justasking4 said:
Faith in what? If there are no facts to support your faith then you have faith in the speculations of men.
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If there were facts to support faith, then there would be no faith, only knowlege. Which you seem to have an abundance of by the way.
 
I don’t know if this was already addressed but She IS more holy than all of the angels!!! That’s just a fact.
 
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