M
Mickey
Guest
Interesting.
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M
Mickey
Guest
Again…I am not offended. I am well aware that some people love halloween. I don’t.
J
Jala
Guest
Oh, yes, my family loves Halloween! We started decorating the yard this past Wednesday, but bought more decorations today (we will wait to put them up, though, as it’s supposed to rain tonight). We’re THE house to go to on Halloween, or so I was told by one of the older trick-or-treaters last year. We go all out–lights, tombstones, spider webs, scary light-up creatures, creepy animated decorations–the works!
My son-in-law earns some extra cash by working as an actor at the local “Haunted Hayride,” so I’ll probably go to that sometime. My younger daughter wants to go to the haunted schoolhouse, so I’ll probably do that too if we don’t have a long wait.
Next weekend I’m taking my younger daughter, her 2 best friends, and their significant others to a local adult Halloween party. I have a gypsy/bellydancer costume and my daughter made her own Furby costume.
On Halloween night, I’ll be in costume, handing out candy. My younger daughter will help hand out candy and will be running a scary soundtrack, with her pet cat dressed up like a little skeleton. My elder daughter may stop by too, if she doesn’t get any trick-or-treaters at her place.
Jala
My son-in-law earns some extra cash by working as an actor at the local “Haunted Hayride,” so I’ll probably go to that sometime. My younger daughter wants to go to the haunted schoolhouse, so I’ll probably do that too if we don’t have a long wait.
Next weekend I’m taking my younger daughter, her 2 best friends, and their significant others to a local adult Halloween party. I have a gypsy/bellydancer costume and my daughter made her own Furby costume.
On Halloween night, I’ll be in costume, handing out candy. My younger daughter will help hand out candy and will be running a scary soundtrack, with her pet cat dressed up like a little skeleton. My elder daughter may stop by too, if she doesn’t get any trick-or-treaters at her place.
Jala
J
johnnyjones
Guest
Then we’re good. I would not have minded if we would have gotten into a further discussion about Halloween as I am well aware of it’s history. Basically pros and cons. Peace.
D
DarkLight
Guest
Sort of - the research I’ve done is that there is an uptick in animal mutilations, but mostly the work of teenaged vandals rather than genuine Satanists.
Yeesh - drunkenness and debauchery is an all too apt description of the holiday! I live in a college town, I’m sort of dreading the night for the sheer amount of drunken pranks.
L
LegoGE1947
Guest
You can see that sort of behavior at Mardi Gras, also. I will agree that little kids in costumes are cute but it stops being cute when they get to be teens or older.
M
Mickey
Guest
Peace to you also my brother in Christ.
R
Razanir
Guest
Forget who posted it, but whoever mentioned as I call them, Mean Girls Halloween costumes, one of my friends was specifically looking for a relatively modest Wonder Woman costume.
D
DarkLight
Guest
I’d settle for relatively modest anything in women’s! I was trying to find a warrior costume last year - fur miniskirts, high heels, and bra tops. I don’t even get it…
Forget who posted it, but whoever mentioned as I call them, Mean Girls Halloween costumes, one of my friends was specifically looking for a relatively modest Wonder Woman costume.
Seriously though - I’d recommend picking up a leotard at a dance store and painting it yourself. It’s far easier to put costumes together than find them.
T
TrixieMcGee
Guest
I never buy the pre-made costumes. I always go to thrift stores and find pieces for them or make pieces for them on my own. I am being a train conductor (the fancier kind, not the overalls kind) this year and I bought a hat online, bought a collared shirt, a vest with a pocket, knee length navy blue slack style shorts at a thrift store and I am using my hubbies pocket watch, a scarf of my own, and some black dress shoes to finish it off. I got it for cheaper than a pre-made one and it looks way better.
E
EasterJoy
Guest
No. She is not offended that you like Halloween! Where did you get that idea? Rather, it seems you that won’t accept that she doesn’t “observe”. She did not say you would not have fun or that you were doing something forbidden. She’s only asking you to agree that if she doesn’t insist you “get heavy” that you will leave her alone about the “lighten up” stuff.
Live and let live, it’s not that hard.
(Maybe bringing up the disagreements about the value of rock’n’roll written after 1969 was a bad example…
)
E
EasterJoy
Guest
As nearly as I can tell, the drought wasn’t nearly as hard on the pumpkin harvest as had been forecast. Anybody do jack’o’lanterns? Our boys used to do really cute ones, but now that they’re in middle school, they want to do something disgusting or gory.
They’ve also decided they’re too old for trick-or-treating, so they’re going to stay home and answer the door.
The schools around here decided that Oct. 31 would be a good day for an inservice day. Sounds reasonable to me. The kids won’t be all there, anyway!!
They’ve also decided they’re too old for trick-or-treating, so they’re going to stay home and answer the door.
The schools around here decided that Oct. 31 would be a good day for an inservice day. Sounds reasonable to me. The kids won’t be all there, anyway!!
J
Jala
Guest
Dear EasterJoy–
Yes! I forgot to mention it in my previous post. My elder daughter has invited her sister and me to her apartment for a pumpkin carving/decoration party the Sunday before Halloween. (We don’t want to carve them too early, or they may rot before the big day.)
Jala
R
Razanir
Guest
What will soon be my favorite costume method (college budget)– Goodwill
E
EasterJoy
Guest
So, somebody asked about history. This is currently what I gather is mostly the case, based on various sources on the internet. I’m ready to stand corrected by a real historian, but here goes:
After Pope Gregory the Great (590-604) sent missionaries to Britain, he sent a letter in 601 responding to a question about what to do about the pagan shrines and customs. In a change of course from past forced conversions (in which such artifacts and shrines were summarily destroyed), Gregory changed to an attitude of persuasion. In the letter, he advocated allowing the conversion of pagan temples to Christian churches, conversion of pagan observance involving animal sacrifices into Christian feasts (most pagans who sacrificed animals made a communal feast of the offerings, so the locals would have sorely missed the group “protein pig outs”, so to speak) and similar methods to ease the transition to Christianity. This first instance of the “we go into their door and they come out our door” strategy was adopted by missionaries in the wider Church, and was very successful.
Although All Saint’s Day was celebrated as early as the late 4th century, it was celebrated in the early centuries during the Easter season, which is when the Eastern churches still celebrate it (both Catholic and Orthodox). On that account, it is no mystery that some Eastern Christians who have moved to the US don’t see any connection between Halloween and Christianity at all.
The current date for the Solemnity of All Saints on the Roman calendar, November 1, was instituted by Pope Gregory III (731-741), when he consecrated a chapel to all the martyrs in St. Peter’s Basilica in Rome and ordered an annual celebration. This celebration was originally only in the diocese of Rome, but Pope Gregory IV (827-844) expanded the feast to the entire Church, to be celebrated on November 1.
Therefore, I think we can conclude that the association of Celtic customs for the season with All Hallow’s Eve happened over 200 hundred years after the Church allowed the conversion of pagan traditions into Christian ones in the British Isles. IOW, turning Samhain into All Saint’s Day was definitely not a quid pro quo for conversion of the Celtic pagans. Rather, when All Saint’s was moved to Nov. 1, the traditions of the season still existed in popular culture, since the Church had elected not to try to stamp them out, provided the practices were stripped of associations with the old religion. Naturally, then, these practices came to be used to in celebrations surrounding the holy day. It is not as if one needs a religious reason to bob for apples, carve up squash, and light candles in late October, after all. Once you’ve seen someone do it, these seem like the thing to do when you have cold weather, apples, squash, and time on your hands! If you were to get a new feast day at just that time of year, then the combination would happen almost as a matter of course. (Not that I don’t think there was some winking and nodding about how “stripped” the Irish notions of lepracauns and fairies really were from the original pagan beliefs. The new “fairytales” didn’t fall far from the old religious tree, this has to be admitted.)
As for All Soul’s Day, it was originally observed during the Easter season, as well, but by the tenth century, the celebration had been moved to various days in October, depending on the locality. Sometime in the early 11th century, St. Odilo of Cluny decreed the Nov. 2 date for all of the monasteries of his Benedictine congregation. Other Benedictines and Carthusians began to celebrate it on the same day their monasteries as well, and soon the celebration of the feast on Nov. 2 spread to the entire *Roman *Church.
As for Día de los Muertos, this was a practice among the native Mexicans that the Church was not wild about but could not stamp out. Sometimes, the locals are not going to budge. On that realization, the observance was directed to take place only in coincidence with All Saint’s Day and All Soul’s Day.
In contrast, certain Protestant denominations, especially in the colonial New England, avoided festive observance of even Christian feasts, such as Christmas, on the general principle that if the pagans did it or the Catholics do it, it is better done without. It hardly needs to be said that Halloween does not pass muster with modern-day adherents to those attitudes, either.
Having said that, the practice of converting non-Christian traditions to serve the end of Christian celebrations and of allowing pagan practices that have been stripped of their pagan religious meaning is a long long tradition in the Western Church. Whether the Eastern Church has or has ever had a similar practice–that is, picking up on use of celebratory inventions of their converts or from their neighbors, such as the Muslims–I don’t know anything about that. I couldn’t even guess.
After Pope Gregory the Great (590-604) sent missionaries to Britain, he sent a letter in 601 responding to a question about what to do about the pagan shrines and customs. In a change of course from past forced conversions (in which such artifacts and shrines were summarily destroyed), Gregory changed to an attitude of persuasion. In the letter, he advocated allowing the conversion of pagan temples to Christian churches, conversion of pagan observance involving animal sacrifices into Christian feasts (most pagans who sacrificed animals made a communal feast of the offerings, so the locals would have sorely missed the group “protein pig outs”, so to speak) and similar methods to ease the transition to Christianity. This first instance of the “we go into their door and they come out our door” strategy was adopted by missionaries in the wider Church, and was very successful.
Although All Saint’s Day was celebrated as early as the late 4th century, it was celebrated in the early centuries during the Easter season, which is when the Eastern churches still celebrate it (both Catholic and Orthodox). On that account, it is no mystery that some Eastern Christians who have moved to the US don’t see any connection between Halloween and Christianity at all.
The current date for the Solemnity of All Saints on the Roman calendar, November 1, was instituted by Pope Gregory III (731-741), when he consecrated a chapel to all the martyrs in St. Peter’s Basilica in Rome and ordered an annual celebration. This celebration was originally only in the diocese of Rome, but Pope Gregory IV (827-844) expanded the feast to the entire Church, to be celebrated on November 1.
Therefore, I think we can conclude that the association of Celtic customs for the season with All Hallow’s Eve happened over 200 hundred years after the Church allowed the conversion of pagan traditions into Christian ones in the British Isles. IOW, turning Samhain into All Saint’s Day was definitely not a quid pro quo for conversion of the Celtic pagans. Rather, when All Saint’s was moved to Nov. 1, the traditions of the season still existed in popular culture, since the Church had elected not to try to stamp them out, provided the practices were stripped of associations with the old religion. Naturally, then, these practices came to be used to in celebrations surrounding the holy day. It is not as if one needs a religious reason to bob for apples, carve up squash, and light candles in late October, after all. Once you’ve seen someone do it, these seem like the thing to do when you have cold weather, apples, squash, and time on your hands! If you were to get a new feast day at just that time of year, then the combination would happen almost as a matter of course. (Not that I don’t think there was some winking and nodding about how “stripped” the Irish notions of lepracauns and fairies really were from the original pagan beliefs. The new “fairytales” didn’t fall far from the old religious tree, this has to be admitted.)
As for All Soul’s Day, it was originally observed during the Easter season, as well, but by the tenth century, the celebration had been moved to various days in October, depending on the locality. Sometime in the early 11th century, St. Odilo of Cluny decreed the Nov. 2 date for all of the monasteries of his Benedictine congregation. Other Benedictines and Carthusians began to celebrate it on the same day their monasteries as well, and soon the celebration of the feast on Nov. 2 spread to the entire *Roman *Church.
As for Día de los Muertos, this was a practice among the native Mexicans that the Church was not wild about but could not stamp out. Sometimes, the locals are not going to budge. On that realization, the observance was directed to take place only in coincidence with All Saint’s Day and All Soul’s Day.
In contrast, certain Protestant denominations, especially in the colonial New England, avoided festive observance of even Christian feasts, such as Christmas, on the general principle that if the pagans did it or the Catholics do it, it is better done without. It hardly needs to be said that Halloween does not pass muster with modern-day adherents to those attitudes, either.
Having said that, the practice of converting non-Christian traditions to serve the end of Christian celebrations and of allowing pagan practices that have been stripped of their pagan religious meaning is a long long tradition in the Western Church. Whether the Eastern Church has or has ever had a similar practice–that is, picking up on use of celebratory inventions of their converts or from their neighbors, such as the Muslims–I don’t know anything about that. I couldn’t even guess.
R
RedSoxWife
Guest
We’re going to be celebrating Halloween by going to a few community events for the little ones with our two little princesses and eating lots of candy.
I think we’re picking up pumpkins to carve today!
Then the next day they’ll dress up in their little saint costumes and celebrate All Saint’s Day.
They’re pretty excited about both days!
Now if I can just keep from going into labor until after November 1st, everything should be great!
I think we’re picking up pumpkins to carve today!
Then the next day they’ll dress up in their little saint costumes and celebrate All Saint’s Day.
They’re pretty excited about both days!
Now if I can just keep from going into labor until after November 1st, everything should be great!
J
johnnyjones
Guest
On line searches about Halloween and it’s origins provide the interesting history you provided. I look at Halloween today with less fear and trepidation (spiritually) than I did after I drifted into Fundamentalism for many years. The church as you rightly point out has a long history with Halloween and put an anti-demonic stamp on it although the current pagan of today may not see that. When a pagan was praying to a tree, the church to win souls would consecrate the tree and bless it, therefor turning the tree into an object that would lead the individual(s) to Christ. The meaning a Christian puts into Halloween is what they will get out of it.So, somebody asked about history. This is currently what I gather is mostly the case, based on various sources on the internet. I’m ready to stand corrected by a real historian, but here goes:
Although All Saint’s Day was celebrated as early as the late 4th century, it was celebrated in the early centuries during the Easter season, which is when the Eastern churches still celebrate it (both Catholic and Orthodox). On that account, it is no mystery that some Eastern Christians who have moved to the US don’t see any connection between Halloween and Christianity at all.
The current date for the Solemnity of All Saints on the Roman calendar, November 1, was instituted by Pope Gregory III (731-741), when he consecrated a chapel to all the martyrs in St. Peter’s Basilica in Rome and ordered an annual celebration. This celebration was originally only in the diocese of Rome, but Pope Gregory IV (827-844) expanded the feast to the entire Church, to be celebrated on November 1.
r.
*Having said that, the practice of converting non-Christian traditions to serve the end of Christian celebrations and of allowing pagan practices that have been stripped of their pagan religious meaning is a long long tradition in the Western ***Church. Whether the Eastern Church has or has ever had a similar practice–that is, picking up on use of celebratory inventions of their converts or from their neighbors, such as the Muslims–I don’t know anything about that. I couldn’t even guess.
Like anything else in life we have to be careful. What is harmless and what isn’t. Carving pumpkins as I do with my daughter or going house to house in costume is technically celebrating Halloween. Of course dangerous mischief, pagan prayers and the like have no place in a Christians life. The pagan Winter Solstice and Christmas has some intertwining (not exactly the same way as Halloween) but the light overcomes the dark. Yes Halloween is all about “dark” at it’s roots but kids and adults more often look to a fun side.
In Fundamentalism one could never have fun talking about ghosts, ghouls and goblins that send a chill up your spin. This chill is to prevent you from the dark side. A skeleton is not wicked, it is our inner frame and can remind us of our mortality. Symbolism is not always bad, it comes down to what you give yourself over to, as with many things.
Halloween has evolved into a cultural time of fall recognition, the onset of a changing night sky, old customs that have been cleansed for fun, and a chance to celebrate pretending for children and adults. Thanks for the history refresher.
M
Mickey
Guest
Some Christians do not see a “fun side”. We see that any participation is a connection to the demonic roots.
Many Christians see nothing “fun” about ghosts, ghouls and goblins….and a Christian is not considered to be a “fundamentalist” if they avoid these things.
I believe the “chill” is a warning sign.
I have heard priests and bishops from Catholicism and Orthodoxy say that the skeletons are a mocking of the Church’s holy relics.
J
johnnyjones
Guest
My friend, it seems you are inferring many ideas out of what I have written. Of course some Christians don’t see a fun side to Halloween, that is not in dispute. I expressed that some stick to the “demonic roots”, but even you must admit all do not, and I would say the preponderance are ok with Halloween and it’s traditions.
The chill IS a warning sign. Thats’s what I was saying.
I do not believe that those who are anti Halloween are all Fundamentalists. I was speaking about Fundamentalism because I came from it. Please read the entirety of the post.
Some priests say that skeletons are not mocking Catholicism. They are the meaning you pour into it. A symbol of mortality or the true shock of our inner frame… The skeletons hanging in med-labs are not bad because they have a connection with voodoo.
I am not aware of any prohibitions from the church regarding Halloween. Here is a CAF apologist view. forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=16564
E
EasterJoy
Guest
The skeletons are not a mocking of the Church’s holy relics. The Mexicans and Celts had these pracitices before they’d ever heard of Christianity. The question is whether or not formerly pagan practices can be re-made into a Christian tradition, and the patriarchs on each side of the Church have different opinions.
As I noted, the idea of “we go in their door, they come out our door” is a traditional strategy of the *Western *Church. If *Eastern *Christians don’t have that in their spiritual tradition, it makes total sense that they’d not see anything whatsoever Christian about Halloween. Also, not everything that some Western Christians do has the blessings fo the Church. Ouija boards and seances, for instance, or any divination, attempts at magical manipulation by attempting to direct supernatural forces, or conjuring of spirits: all these are absolutely forbidden. The East and West disagree about exactly where the line is, but both absolutely agree that there is a line! As you so rightly point out, sometimes when the hair stands up on your neck, that ought to tell you something!!
The Eastern position is quite different from American Fundamentalists, who are wary of anything sensual touching on anything spiritual. The Orthodox are nothing like that, but rather are more restrictive of what they allow into their tradition. As a result, Eastern traditions are much more like what they were a thousand years ago, correct? I see that as much much different than the Fundamentalist position. It is as if the East has a different fire code, while the Fundamentalists, fearing a burn, have forbidden fire.
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