Halloween?

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I think Mickey has an issue of conveniently ignoring large parts of posts or reading comprehension issues.
I have answered everything set forth to me…although it is difficult to respond to everyone. But I am still waiting for your explanation as to how the custom of dressing up as ghouls and demons…and decorating homes and businesses to look like like the passage to hell…has somehow become good and holy. You (and others) have been avoiding that question for a very long time.
 
I am still waiting for an explanation as to how dressing like demons and ghouls…and decorating houses and business like the gateway to hell…is good and holy.
What is good and holy about us wasting our time together in pointless disputes on the internet? At least scaring one’s little sister is fun–for both siblings. What this kind of thread does to further either holiness or fraternity, once the tail has been chased for three or four revolutions, I couldn’t say. 🤷

I don’t agree with you, Mickey, but I commend you for living according to your conscience. I think that is about as close as we are going to get. Thank you for your efforts, though; I have no doubt they have been rooted in an anxiety to protect souls.

👋
 
No. My argument is that St Boniface gave us the tree. Christ was crucified on a tree. It was NEVER pagan for Christians. It was pagan for pagans. Some feel that maybe it came from the Germans where they used to use the tree for Liturgical plays. But I certainly reject your druid pagan explanation. With all due respect, I will listen to St Boniface before I do to you. I’m still waiting for your halloween explanation.
My argument comes from a saint. It is very strong.
I say this, you say that. This could gone on and on. You obviously know Catholics participate in Halloween, and some apparently don’t. As you reject my statements, I disagree with most of yours. I feel ultimately this dialogue has been fruitless. I will listen to the church who not only has participated in Halloween since my youth at St. Barnabas, but has encouraged me and my family to enjoy ourselves at Halloween. Again, peace. 🙂
 
At least scaring one’s little sister is fun–for both siblings.
Really?
Thank you for your efforts, though; I have no doubt they have been rooted in an anxiety to protect souls.
Thank you my friend. I wish no harm to anyone.

Envious of us Christians, they [the demons] meddle with all things in their desire to frustrate our journey into heaven so that we might not ascend to the place from which they fell.
St Anthony the Great
 
I feel ultimately this dialogue has been fruitless.
I think it has been rather fruitful. I have learned much. 🙂
I will listen to the church who not only has participated in Halloween since my youth at St. Barnabas, but has encouraged me and my family to enjoy ourselves at Halloween.
Again, you must follow your conscience. I have had spiritual direction as a Latin Catholic…as an Eastern Catholic…and now as an Orthodox Christian…which compels me to abstain from all appearances of halloween. I will be obedient to that.

My child has a ton of fun…but there is no recognition of halloween… and it is not missed one iota. 👍
 
Well, yes…it’s like going on a roller-coaster, I guess. If it weren’t fun for the people looking at you to see that you were dressed up to be scary, that would just be mean. If an older brother scares his little sister who is so young that she is simply petrified, he’d be in a lot of trouble. This is why parents are very careful not to take little kids or even sensitive older kids to events that might be too scary for them. It is supposed to be fun, and when you face up to something that seemed scary and you do just fine, it gives a little confidence, too. You feel as if you’ve mastered your fear, and that is enjoyable, too.

The roller coaster is actually a fairly good analogy, because while there is a desire to have fun or a thrill from being scared, there is also the absolute concern that it only* feel *scary. If there were any chance of someone getting hurt on a thrill ride, of course you couldn’t allow anyone on it. You have to keep people off of it with neck problems or blood pressure problems or people who are at a risk of harm, and you ought not let anyone get too attached to seeking thrills, because that isn’t good, either. Halloween is like that.
Thank you my friend. I wish no harm to anyone.
I had thought you were just trying to be right, but on re-reading my sense is that your anxiety is to warn others away from danger, and that is a good thing. I hope I didn’t hurt your feelings with any of my own responses. Defending Halloween is like defending an ugly pet dog. He may not seem like much to anyone else, but those who know him have some affection for him. He looks mangy, but unless he’s badly used, he’s OK. (Really!)
 
Well, yes…it’s like going on a roller-coaster, I guess.
I’m having trouble with that analogy.
It is supposed to be fun, and when you face up to something that seemed scary and you do just fine, it gives a little confidence, too.
Or (in the case of ghoulish and demonic looking costumes and images) it desensitizes the child to occultic images. 🤷
I had thought you were just trying to be right, but on re-reading my sense is that your anxiety is to warn others away from danger, and that is a good thing. I hope I didn’t hurt your feelings with any of my own responses.
Likewise. I have a rather large appetite for patristic writings…I have an extensive library spanning most of Church history. And I see and read many teachings from the writings of the Church Fathers which give us dire warnings about occultic associations…and I see many of these associations in modern halloween. For me, Scripture and Tradition is telling us to abstain from such associations…and we do not need a “magisterial document” to tell us this. For those who pray vespers (evening prayer) on the eve of October 31 and then attend Liturgy on November 1 for all saints day…I think it is a beautiful tradition as set forth by the Latin Catholic Church. But the modern day pagan celebration that usually replaces this prayerful tradition in America…saddens my heart and my soul.

Peace and blessings to you.
 
I’m having trouble with that analogy.

Or (in the case of ghoulish and demonic looking costumes and images) it desensitizes the child to occultic images. 🤷
That’s OK. Analogies don’t always fly.

In his book The Screwtape Letters, C.S. Lewis wrote this in his preface:
There are two equal and opposite errors into which our race can fall about the devils. One is to disbelieve in their existence. The other is to believe, and to feel an excessive and unhealthy interest in them. They themselves are equally pleased by both errors and hail a materialist or a magician with the same delight.

I think the greater danger is that people get so used to the trivialized images that they forget the level of deceit and glamour the devil can put on. In other words, people now are less likely to become magicians according to the pseudo-“ancient” (Victorian-medieval-Egyptian-whathaveyou) imagery, which is what Halloween uses, and instead either disbelieves that the devil exists at all or else get in line with some New Age “spirit powers” nonsense that holds that what everyone torments as ghoulish or demonic at Halloween is the focus of the legitimate religion that is ignorantly getting a bad rap. I don’t think Halloween makes that situation any worse, however.

In Letter #7 of the same book, the author has the senior devil, Screwtape, write this advice to his nephew (as this is a letter written in the voice of a devil, of course “the Enemy” refers to God…since the devil would never refer to God as God, for all the obvious reasons).

*MY DEAR WORMWOOD,

I wonder you should ask me whether it is essential to keep the patient in ignorance of your own existence. That question, at least for the present phase of the struggle, has been answered for us by the High Command. Our policy, for the moment, is to conceal ourselves. Of course this has not always been so. We are really faced with a cruel dilemma. When the humans disbelieve in our existence we lose all the pleasing results of direct terrorism and we make no magicians. On the other hand, when they believe in us, we cannot make them materialists and skeptics. At least, not yet. I have great hopes that we shall learn in due time how to emotionalize and mythologize their science to such an extent that what is, in effect, belief in us, (though not under that name) will creep in while the human mind remains closed to belief in the Enemy. The “Life Force”, the worship of sex, and some aspects of Psychoanalysis, may here prove useful. If once we can produce our perfect work—the Materialist Magician, the man, not using, but veritably worshipping, what he vaguely calls “Forces” while denying the existence of “spirits”—then the end of the war will be in sight. But in the meantime we must obey our orders. I do not think you will have much difficulty in keeping the patient in the dark. The fact that “devils” are predominantly comic figures in the modern imagination will help you. If any faint suspicion of your existence begins to arise in his mind, suggest to him a picture of something in red tights, and persuade him that since he cannot believe in that (it is an old textbook method of confusing them) he therefore cannot believe in you.*

IOW, dressing up at Halloween doesn’t desensitize to the real occult as much as trivializes it–people who used to put those symbols on their garage for the amusement of school children aren’t likely to accept them as real religious symbols–but in doing so could conceivably create one picture of the occult that is ridiculous while perhaps allowing people to fall for something else that looks different on the outside and actually is a form of occult, but that people don’t see as “the occult” because it doesn’t fit the melodramatic Halloween picture.

I don’t think that dressing up scary or not changes that all that much. The difference is whether or not children and young people are taught the real marks of the occult: any practice intended to give one “spiritual power” in one’s own right or to harness such power as if one were harnessing a river with a hydroelectric dam, any practice that cultivates an affection for or a devotion for any “spirit” or “power” that does not point the soul to God and God alone, or any practice that does not put God at the center or lead one toward adoration only for God, service only for God, love only for and in God.

Or, as they say at the Treasury Department, you cannot possibly learn to recognize every kind of counterfeit currency, and you don’t have to. The main thing is to know what marks make the real thing real. Then if you run across any kind of counterfeit, you’ll know it. As long as Halloween does not cross the lines that would show it as a counterfeit, I think it is OK. It is important, though, not to take it for granted that there is no boundary. I don’t even give that much to Christmas, let alone Halloween. The adversary is too clever and relentless for that.
 
It pronounces on absolute sins and has done so since the benning.

These are the cases that do not have moral absolutes, i.e. what is correct for one may not necessarily be correct for another.

For example, someone who has a shoe fetish ought not to linger near a shoe store. That does not apply to most of the population.

I am a Catholic who has a well-formed conscience, and it tells me that profanity is not sinful in every case.

Before you respond, please take the time to make sure you avoid a particular logical fallacy

Then I suppose Catholicism is a fundamentalist religion, as the Church officially condemns all sorts of perfectly obvious sins.

No, it does not. It celebrates children playing dress-up and getting candy. No one is forcing children to dress up as witches and the like. Furthermore, there is no reason to believe that a child dressed up like a demon actually believes that he is a demon, so I fail to see the problem.

Which the Church acknowledges will lead different individuals to different decisions.
Dear Baelor,

Cordial greetings and a very good day. Hope all is well. Thankyou for your response.

It is not a question, dear friend, of moral absolutes but of having sufficient spiritual formation to be able to discern what is good and what is evil and what it is wholesome and what is unwholesome. As Catholics we do not approach every single issue from the position of an Evangelical legalism, demanding chapter and verse from the Catechism or some magisterial source. On the contrary, our Church bids us to use our prudential judgment, by the exercise of a well-formed consience, to arrive at a decision that is consistent with the Catholic pursuit of holiness. Morevover, the liberty to use our prudential judgment is not a liberty for laxity and the adoption of a hand in hand with the world type of religious profession, that makes little demand upon us in terms of sanctity and separartion from the godless world.

Forgive me, dear friend, but your stance appears to come perilously close to moral relativism in any matter on which Holy Mother Church has not officially declared her mind. This is a grave mistake and leads men along a subjective path to an ultimate quagmire of competing opinions, the very sort of thing that one associates with Protestantism. Authentic Catholicism does not encourage every man doing that which is right in his own eyes in the absence of some specific authoritative teaching.

With regards to the issue of profanity, irrespective of the antiquity of bad language, the moral sense of the faithful has always disapproved of its use because it has been understood, without official Church pronouncements, that it does not comport with Christian standards of language. Pious Catholics accept this without demur.

The moral sense of the faithful cannot be compared to the ‘true scotsman’ argument against logical fallacy, since it is the product of the collective wisdom of the people of God down through the ages and owes its origin, no doubt, to the Divine Providence. We do not lightly or arrogantly walk away from this moral sense, dear friend.

Modern Halloween celebrations sadly focus upon ghouls and demons, pumkins with menacing faces and horror themes, which has nothing to do with All Hallows. What began as a Celtic tradition of All Hallows Eve, a pagan festival which marked a time when the dead mingled amongst the living, has turned into a common practice of blurring the lines between good and evil. What is alarming, dear friend, is not the sight of small children dressed up as clowns, ballerinas or Batman circling your neighbourhood and receiving some free sweets, the concern is for what is happening beyond these innocent traditions. However, whether it is for fun or not, a Catholic child has no business in dressing up as a demon, given what that represents in the real world and a parent has no business allowing him to. A moral obligation is laid upon us to steer our precious children away from all evil, especially that which may stimulate an unhealthy interest in the occultic subcultures. The Devil is a past master at disguising that which is unwholesome and evil as innocent fun, for that is how he trapps the unwary in his web. My plea is that men focus upon the celebration of holiness, the feasts of Holy Souls and All Saints. Let us reclaim Halloween from neo-paganism.

Alas, incontrovertibly, modern Halloween celebrations do have an undercurrent of occultism, which Mickey has repeatedly brought to our notice in this thread, and we ought to read and mark what he has written for our admonition.

God bless.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax
 
I’m having trouble with that analogy.

Or (in the case of ghoulish and demonic looking costumes and images) it desensitizes the child to occultic images. 🤷
Likewise. I have a rather large appetite for patristic writings…I have an extensive library spanning most of Church history. And I see and read many teachings from the writings of the Church Fathers which give us dire warnings about occultic associations…and I see many of these associations in modern halloween. For me, Scripture and Tradition is telling us to abstain from such associations…and we do not need a “magisterial document” to tell us this. For those who pray vespers (evening prayer) on the eve of October 31 and then attend Liturgy on November 1 for all saints day…I think it is a beautiful tradition as set forth by the Latin Catholic Church. But the modern day pagan celebration that usually replaces this prayerful tradition in America…saddens my heart and my soul.

Peace and blessings to you.
Dear Mickey,

Cordial greetings and a very good day. Jolly splendid (name removed by moderator)ut and a hearty Amen to the above.

Precisely, dear friend, that is what we must do, repair to the collective wisdom of the past for enlightenment and spiritual direction. The Church Fathers issue grave warnings respecting occultic associations because they knew fully well that they were morally unhealthy. Sacred Scripture and Tradition unite in telling us to give it a jolly wide-berth and that ought to suffice in our prudential judgment of this whole matter.

Our lot is cast in very sad days, dear friend. Nevertheless, keep on keeping on for you are doing a sterling job here and are plainly well-informed.

God bless.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax
 
We must ask God’s help in this warfare, because our only means of conquering the enemy is to conquer ourselves. How often we come into conflict with our own lower nature, with those unspiritual, unregenerate attitudes that scripture calls the flesh! What the flesh wants is opposed to what the spirit wants, and what the spirit wants is opposed to what the flesh wants. If the desires of the flesh are the stronger, then our spiritual faculties will be dragged down to the level of our lower nature and will be enslaved where they ought to be masters. But if we are determined to serve the Lord and find our joy in his gifts, if we trample underfoot our instinctive tendency to gratify ourselves and refuse to allow sin to rule in our mortal bodies, then our spirit will be in control and no strategy of the Evil One will be able to overthrow us. True peace and freedom can only be ours when the flesh is ruled by the spirit and the spirit is guided by the will of God.
St Leo the Great
 
It is not a question, dear friend, of moral absolutes but of having sufficient spiritual formation to be able to discern what is good and what is evil and what it is wholesome and what is unwholesome.
If you believe that something is evil for everyone, then it is a moral absolute. Thus, your distinction is not only false, but disingenuous since it is perfectly obvious that you are, in fact, arguing for moral absolutes that cannot be found in Church teaching.
As Catholics we do not approach every single issue from the position of an Evangelical legalism, demanding chapter and verse from the Catechism or some magisterial source.
For anything that involves moral absolutes, we do, because the Church teaches the Truth, so we may expect to find the Truth in Her teachings. It is not a matter of forfeiting our brain, but rather of recognizing the authority and value of the Church in forming our consciences. Either the correct position can be derived from Church teaching, or it is a matter of individual conscience and not absolute. But no moral issue is so far removed from current Church teaching that it may be arrived at only by considering our well-formed conscience. The Church recognizes the danger of that sort of theology.
On the contrary, our Church bids us to use our prudential judgment, by the exercise of a well-formed consience, to arrive at a decision that is consistent with the Catholic pursuit of holiness.
In cases in which the Church asks us to do that and there is no Church teaching on the subject, we are not all bound by morality to do the same thing.
Forgive me, dear friend, but your stance appears to come perilously close to moral relativism in any matter on which Holy Mother Church has not officially declared her mind.
Would you mind giving some examples? I fail to see how my position is relativist at all.
Authentic Catholicism does not encourage every man doing that which is right in his own eyes in the absence of some specific authoritative teaching.
If there is not authentic Church teaching or Church teaching that can lead incontrovertible to the moral conclusion in question, then yes, we may reasonable assume that it is a matter that the Church considers relative, or of such a technical nature that even the Church has not determine the proper course of action.
With regards to the issue of profanity, irrespective of the antiquity of bad language, the moral sense of the faithful has always disapproved of its use because it has been understood, without official Church pronouncements, that it does not comport with Christian standards of language. Pious Catholics accept this without demur.
You are completely wrong. There is no way that you can justify that statement, and you know it. I know you know because you have failed to provide a shred of evidence for that conclusion whatsoever, nor have you explained why the Church would ignore such a quotidian aspect of morality that has been in play for over 5000 years.

You feel qualified to make up your own moral laws, ignoring the Church and God’s will. What could be more Protestant than that?
The moral sense of the faithful cannot be compared to the ‘true scotsman’ argument against logical fallacy, since it is the product of the collective wisdom of the people of God down through the ages and owes its origin, no doubt, to the Divine Providence. We do not lightly or arrogantly walk away from this moral sense, dear friend.
Of course not. But since you have no authority upon which to draw other than your own pontification, your statement that I disagree because my conscience is not well-formed is logically fallacious.

I would recommend Aristotle’s Topics for your own edification. It is clear that you would benefit from some treatment of formal logic/dialectic.

Furthermore, if the collective wisdom against swearing in all situations would by now be reflected in Church teaching, along with all other morality that is so painfully obvious and timeless that the Church has made official statements. Its absence in Church teaching speaks for itself.
Modern Halloween celebrations sadly focus upon ghouls and demons, pumkins with menacing faces and horror themes, which has nothing to do with All Hallows.
Irrelevant.
What began as a Celtic tradition of All Hallows Eve, a pagan festival which marked a time when the dead mingled amongst the living, has turned into a common practice of blurring the lines between good and evil.
What actual, concrete evil is being portrayed as good on Halloween?
However, whether it is for fun or not, a Catholic child has no business in dressing up as a demon, given what that represents in the real world and a parent has no business allowing him to.
It represents nothing. I do not look at a child in a demon costume and think anything other than “That’s cute” or “That’s not cute.” Why? Because I make the reasonable assumption that the three-year-old is not a Satanist, that his parents are likewise not Satanists, and therefore there is no equivocation of the “scary” costume with anything outside of itself. Who knows why they picked it?
A moral obligation is laid upon us to steer our precious children away from all evil, especially that which may stimulate an unhealthy interest in the occultic subcultures.
Not everyone is tempted by the sight of a toddler in a demon costume. I will pray for you, that you overcome this adversity of faith and will be able to withstand such frivolities.
 
See, I would say just the opposite, that your position is more akin to Protestan Evangelicalism because it is an example of the individual deciding for themself as their own magisterium what is right and wrong, and then taking the extra step of preaching it as if it were truth.

If it were a matter of a well formed conscience, then we would all agree. As it is, I have no problem with the whole trick or treat Halloween scene, as do many others here. Surely we do not judge how well someone has developed their conscience based on how much they agree with use. The last thing we want to do is usurp the Judgment Throne of Christ.
Dear pnewton,

Cordial greetings and a very good day. Thankyou for your response.

The very use, dear friend, of our prudential judgment, in any matter, necessarily involves a man deciding for himself as to what is right and wrong. Thus to that extent he is own magisterium and there is nothing amiss with this, provided, of course, that he has a well-formed conscience, otherwise he will likely make jolly catastrophic errors of prudential judgment.

Not all Catholics agree, dear friend, because not all have well-formed consciences. Alas, some have radically defective consciences as a consequence of worldly conformity and/or desensitization to that which is wrong and morally unhealthy. This may sound harsh, but I believe that it is something which must be reckoned with in these days of Laodicean lukewarmness in contemporary Catholicism, especially in the Western world. The sad fact is that many have chosen a hand in hand with the world type of religious profession and have descended to the level of their non-Christian neighbours. This is why they struggle to discover and verify the will God and “what is good and acceptable and perfect” (cf. Rom. 12: 2); rather than renewing their minds they have become conformed to the godless world and consequently their consciences all too easily become deadened to that which is morally unhealthy etc. The inward transformation of the mind is the only effective preservative against outward conformity with the spirit of this present age.

God bless.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax
 
Of course not, because Portrait’s authority is higher than that of the Church and all other Catholics.
 
Modern Halloween celebrations sadly focus upon ghouls and demons, pumkins with menacing faces and horror themes, which has nothing to do with All Hallows.
Indeed. I have seen young children literally running out of grocery stores screaming and crying because of the demonic halloween display.

Some people may say that the modern celebration of Halloween is harmless and innocent. On the contrary, we say that it is even more dangerous, because it targets children throughout society and normalizes evil.
Written by Paul Samaan under the guidance of His Grace Bishop Serapion of the Coptic Orthodox Church
 
Not all Catholics agree, dear friend, because not all have well-formed consciences. Alas, some have radically defective consciences as a consequence of worldly conformity and/or desensitization to that which is wrong and morally unhealthy.
No doubt this is true, but scarcely the only reason. For example you and I disagree on this topic for reasons other than conscience. Furthermore, the Church allows for this disagreement, as in all matters not of sin, liberty and charity. Now true, this assumes something that is not of sin, but I submit that what I do, walking, knocking, eating candy, are activities that are not objectively sinful.

I also disagree with your assessment on an above post where you said someone was perilously close to moral relativism. That simply is not true. Moral relativism does not apply in areas that in which the Church has not pronounce. Rather, moral relativism is “*The philosophized notion that right and wrong are not absolute values, but are personalized according to the individual and his or her circumstances or cultural orientation. *” No one is denying that there are absolute values. C’mon, man! We are all Catholics here. We accept strongly the idea of absolute moral values. However, not everything has absolute moral value.

St. Paul set for some good guidelines on Christian liberty. In studying his writings we find that many actions are question of prudence and not good or bad. Would you say St. Paul is a moral relativist for his statement, “Whether, then, you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.” So, eat the meat, or not! There is no moral absolute on this, but rather what is prudent for my soul as well as the conscience of another (the law of charity).
 
You have hit on the danger of such statements, especially when we are dealing in areas that the Church is silent. We tend to hold our own conclusions as the standard for the properly formed conscience of others. Interestingly enough, St. Paul gave the opposite interpretation. He viewed that those who tried to tell others what was right or wrong in matters of prudence the weaker brethern because they had no learned to live in the law of liberty.
 
Dear (name removed by moderator),

Cordial greetings and a very good day. Hope that you and your dear wife are both keeping well. Thankyou for your response.

What is important, dear friend, is that men prove for themselves “…what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect” (Rom. 12: 2), not that they agree or disagree with me. However, it surely admits of no doubt that for our spiritual senses to be exercised properly we must needs have a well-formed conscience, for without it it is almost inevitable that we will make grevious errors of prudential judgment. This I firmly believe to be the case with respect to the topic currently under review.

God bless.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax
 
This I firmly believe to be the case with respect to the topic currently under review.
Yet you fail to mention the biggest premise of your argument: your conscience is uniquely qualified to make this judgment, being well-formed.
 
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