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1WorldTrader
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Interesting thread, with interesting points. I agree that we must take such crazed comments with a giant grain of salt, especially since we in the USA have been hearing such inanities regularly from some A.Q. “leader” for years now.
That being said, these comments were directed at Rome and were specifically meant to conjure up the bitter feelings of the crusades.
The argument that Hamas does not have the standing army that could take over Italy is a straw man. It is obvious that the cleric is referring to Islam taking over Rome/Europe/Americas and not Hamas per se.
Note to Kaninchen: Love your wit. You must feel like you are shooting fish in a barrel based on some of the comments posted here. Gotta differ with you about this one cleric being simply a crank, however. While he may be just a crank to you, he certainly is not to the radical Muslims who would love nothing more than to carry out those threats. Europe is constantly having to swat these guys and their plots down. Maybe Bin Laden does not want to take over Germany, but Germany certainly has serious problems with the number of terrorist plots that are being hatched within their borders.
Yes, I know Europe has been dealing with this for a very long time, which is most likely the reason you do so well at catching the culprits before the plans are launched. But don’t doubt for a minute that there are minions galore throughout Europe who hang on the words of such “cranks” and draw courage from such drivel.
Should we be alarmed? Maybe not. Vigilant? Absolutely.
That being said, these comments were directed at Rome and were specifically meant to conjure up the bitter feelings of the crusades.
The argument that Hamas does not have the standing army that could take over Italy is a straw man. It is obvious that the cleric is referring to Islam taking over Rome/Europe/Americas and not Hamas per se.
Note to Kaninchen: Love your wit. You must feel like you are shooting fish in a barrel based on some of the comments posted here. Gotta differ with you about this one cleric being simply a crank, however. While he may be just a crank to you, he certainly is not to the radical Muslims who would love nothing more than to carry out those threats. Europe is constantly having to swat these guys and their plots down. Maybe Bin Laden does not want to take over Germany, but Germany certainly has serious problems with the number of terrorist plots that are being hatched within their borders.
Yes, I know Europe has been dealing with this for a very long time, which is most likely the reason you do so well at catching the culprits before the plans are launched. But don’t doubt for a minute that there are minions galore throughout Europe who hang on the words of such “cranks” and draw courage from such drivel.
Should we be alarmed? Maybe not. Vigilant? Absolutely.
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1WorldTrader
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1WorldTrader
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Not sure what you are talking about. As has been pointed out, Muslim population is growing simply because it is thriving in areas of the world where large families are still the norm.
And certainly you are aware that many Catholics in the US reject the Church teachings on contraception (wrongly or rightly, not here to debate this on this thread). Catholicism/Christianity in Europe is fading fast, though Poland seems to be exception. Catholicism in South America is rapidly being outpaced by evangelical Christianity. The Muslim nations have no such hindrances to the spreading of their culture/religion. It is simple mathematics. Muslims will out number Catholic Christians, and eventually all Christians.
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Muzhik
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Oh, so now you’re trying to POLE-arize the discussion!
You’d better act fast. Knowing Americans the way I do, they’ll soon start fast-INTERbreeding with the native paranoias to produce some very hardy hybrid paranoias. The American paranoias will then return to America, leaving these new paranoias to fend for themselves. My daddy told me the same thing happened after WW2.
<><
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1WorldTrader
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Had the British not trampled on the “privacy” of the plotters of the airplane explosions in Aug '06 there would have been massive death and carnage. The Brits wiretapped the terrorists and unraveled the plot. Would you prefer to have your Gov’t NOT listen in to terrorist phone calls and instead let them freely plot to kill civilians? Shall we make the FBI wait for a judge to issue a warrant while they miss their window of opportunity…?
Please name one (1) personal right that has been taken away from you. Please don’t provide a link to another site. Give us one example of how you, personally, have had your constitutional rights taken away. (assuming, of course, that you have not been declared an “enemy combatant”… )
Regarding the Supreme Court and 2nd amendment…this is nothing new. There are always challenges in the courts with regards to the interpretation of that amendment. (same with the First Amendment…)
On HR 1955. It passed 404 to 6 in the House and nothing has happened on the Senate version. Funny, when you google it, most sites that come up are radical left ones. What does the bill do? According to the Congressional Budget Office:
“H.R. 1955 would direct the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) to establish a university-based Center of Excellence for the Study of Violent Radicalization and Homegrown Terrorism in the United States. The bill also would establish a commission to investigate the causes of terrorist acts committed by persons raised or living in the United States and would require DHS to prepare reports on…”
Exactly how does the establishment of a program to study homegrown terrorism threaten your constitutional rights?
Peace
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Kaninchen
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The plumbing industry in Western Europe may never recover - these guys will do things like work evenings and weekends, fix your radiators without you having to take out a new mortgage, all sorts of underhand tricks.
I think it will be the whole red squirrel/gray squirrel thing, all over again, pockets of lovingly hand-crafted, native European paranoias, the kinds of paranoias of childhood picture books, in a sea of American paranoias, each with a questioning ‘lift’ at the end of each sentence so we’re always confused about whether it’s an assertion or a question.
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Kaninchen
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I have nothing whatsoever against vigilance - except that when it goes on for decades, like with the IRA or ETA, it’s rather hard to maintain. This is one of the reasons that I really do believe (my purpose in entering this thread) that losing a sense of proportion, indeed a sense of reality, is one of the most dangerous things that can happen.
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1WorldTrader
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Agreed. But where is the line drawn between complacency and vigilance? I suppose *that *is the true challenge, isn’t it?
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Kaninchen
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Oh yes.
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Ghoti
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That’s probably the general idea.Over my dead body.
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KathleenElsie
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Yes I read all 110 posts. No matter how many you show this was posted after reading the full thread.
OK. Islam is growing and there are many converts (forced or not) in the world.
AND:
We Americans (USA citizens) ignored the chatter that had been aimed at us prior to 9/11. Our heads were either in the sand or we just believed that no person or group would do that kind of evil. But it did.
The fact is it can happen again. Will it? I don’t know nor does anyone else on earth except the person that the plans and succeeds.
Do we know haw many have tried and failed? NO. Are we naive enough to believe that there have been no failed attempts? I pray we are not.
Even the Holy Father has security 24/7. If there was no threat there would be no POPE MOBILE, or SWISS GUARD or VATICAN SECURITY FORCES with HIGH TECH gadgets watching over him.
So the threat could be figurative or physical. But it is a threat none the less.
OK. Islam is growing and there are many converts (forced or not) in the world.
AND:
We Americans (USA citizens) ignored the chatter that had been aimed at us prior to 9/11. Our heads were either in the sand or we just believed that no person or group would do that kind of evil. But it did.
The fact is it can happen again. Will it? I don’t know nor does anyone else on earth except the person that the plans and succeeds.
Do we know haw many have tried and failed? NO. Are we naive enough to believe that there have been no failed attempts? I pray we are not.
Even the Holy Father has security 24/7. If there was no threat there would be no POPE MOBILE, or SWISS GUARD or VATICAN SECURITY FORCES with HIGH TECH gadgets watching over him.
So the threat could be figurative or physical. But it is a threat none the less.
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BamaRider
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The key word here is ONCE controlled. My response is I don’t know how long they’ve dealing wth terrorism, apparently it hasn’t been very effective.
I stand by the statement if a hostile force flew a plane into the Eifferl Tower, not a single thing the French could do to respond, the Mullahs in Iran just say" what are ya gonna do about it?" And the slience would be deafening, and that doesn’t mean just France. They might have some sophiisticated weapons, but they have NO will to use them.
You mention the Foreign Legion in your post, another keyword is Foreign. Don’t you find it odd, their most effective fighting force is made up mostly of foreign nationals? I could NOT imagine the USA engaging such a Army to defend our interests.
But yes, the Brits, can do defend themselves.
The FACTS say otherwise, they have no armies to speak off, and what they have are not capable of much, just ask the folks in Spain who take marching orders from Bin Laden when elections roll around. From now on the Spainish need not have election campaigns, just call Bin Laden and see what he thinks.
I do agree there is no immediate danger from Hamas unless you’re Israeli. I’m sure Hamas is working to acquire long range rockets that can reach Tel Aviv, then after that all bets are off on what Israel does next. Am I for taking out Muslim Clerics that shout, threat, and spew anit American, anit Israel stuff? Depends.
I wouldn’t worry much about the Jewish Nation. They follow the God of Abraham, they are His people, and history has shown those that harm His chosen people will pay a heavy price. He drowned Pharoah’s Army in the Red Sea, and had Hitler and Germany destroyed, and in battle Israel has crushed Arab armies from half a dozen nations. He promised them a nation, and now they have one, all that just doesn’t happen. Nations will be judged on how they treat Israel.
I’m not much of a biblical scholar, but even I was smart enough to figure that out.
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BamaRider
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Couple of points to the above statements.I remember, I was in seventh grade.
I beleive he wants to take over the Vatican, however as Gaza has no standing army, I’m really not to concerned about his threat of takeing over the Vatican.
British Royal Marines secured Sri Lanka with something like 300 Marines, Europe once controled most of the Middle East, has sophisticated weaponry, and has been dealing with terrorism long before we have, I think they can handle themselves.
All that ignoring the fact that Bin Laden isin’t really after Germany.
Well, everyone know the French Foreign Legion are a bunch of pansies
The French have, I beleive, Neculear weapons, airborn units, and an airforce, ignoring the question of how Al Quaida would aquire such advanced technology, I think they can handle it.
They killed 200 people.
Spain has been dealing with terrorism much longer than we have, Muslim terrorism at that, come to think of it so have the French you so scorn, as have the British, Germans have been dealing with Nazi leftovers, Europe seems to be doing alright, in fact all the European Countries seem to have two primary things in common
1-They have been dealing with terrorism for decades before we started paying attention to it(or were funding it)
2-They have a long and extensive history of occupying Muslim nations.
The British occupied Iraq long before we did, perhapse they know a thing or two we don’t.
Despite what some may beleive Europe just may be able to function without us.
Actually, I think a past Pope already made that threat, perhapse you’ve heard of Urban II?
As for the present, of course there would be outcry, probably because we hold Cardinals in higher esteam than some fanatical MP in Gaza.
What “they” do?
Not all Muslims freaked out you know
Really? How would you know? Do you receive briefings from all the Clerics in the world?
So, you think it’s a good idea for Israel to start assisignating foreign politicians for makeing outlandish threats?
well, those heavy handed tatics have worked so well so far I suppose your right:blush:
Pope Urban II? When were those statements made? 500 years ago?
Provide us a credilble link ABC, BBC, UPI, AP heck I’ll even go with Al Jazzera where ONE prominent Muslim condemned the rantings of this kook.
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IvanKaramozov
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The British wern’t effective in fighting the IRA?
Do you know why France didn’t need to get in an arm race with the USSR?
They positioned their neculeur weapons in positions such that if the USSR took them out with nukes the wind currents would carry the fallout directly over Moscow.
That’s fighting smart.
The Europeans do have military’s, they have used them, and they will use them. They’ve used them in Africa, the Baltic, and numerous engadgements around the world.
Perhapse you’ve heard of BlackWater?
Not foreign exactly, but certianly a mercinary army in the same idea.
defend themselves from whome?
Who do the French, Germans, Swiss etc have to defend themselves from. 7% of Muslims supported the 9/11 attacks, of those 7% most had a netural oppinion of France and Germany.
Simply because Europe dosen’t currently try to fight the entire world dosen’t mean they don’t have armies.
Can you cite a study that shows that the Spanish decided they would throw out the previous government to comply with Bin Laden?
right, I’m sure
You know, that arrogant attitude is a primary reasone America is bogged down in Iraq, and Iran has emerged as the Superpower of the MiddEast.
utter non-sense
You didn’t figure anything out, simply claiming that God’s going to judge the world by how they treat Israel is pure conjecture
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BamaRider
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Don’t need a study, its a historical fact.
On the eve of election (2004?) the ruling party was ahead in most polls, and going to win the election. Behold the Madrid train station bombing with a statement by Al Q to withdraw from Iraq or face more attacks. The election suddenly changed and Spain withdrew from Iraq.
Blackwater is not the same, they are a private entity, the Legion is not.
Now that sounds just like the French, they defend themselves based on which way the wind is blowing LOL. Are you serious? In the face of Soviet army, they had no choice but to go nuke, they could not hope to defend themselves otherwise.
You think its smart to base your ability to defend yourself on which way the wind is blowing? That enough fallout was gonna blow ALL the way to Moscow to deter your enemy?
Then you added-
Wrong. Outside the Brits, Europe has NO armies to speak off. Do they have people in uniform? Sure they do, and I suspect they are dedicated, but their govts do not support them much, and their numbers are not enough to do much in the face of credible threat. They have been stripped to fuel massive social programs, and have defered their defense over to U.S. to say otherwise is disingenious.
7% of 1 billion is what? 7 MILLION? Did you realize that? Someone help is my math flawed? 1billion x .7
These countries could NOT defend themselves if 7% of the Muslim world decided to descend on them in a hostile force. Can that happen? I dunno. But all Europe can do is hope it doesn’t.
I said-
Quote:
I wouldn’t worry much about the Jewish Nation. They follow the God of Abraham, they are His people, and history has shown those that harm His chosen people will pay a heavy price. He drowned Pharoah’s Army in the Red Sea, and had Hitler and Germany destroyed, and in battle Israel has crushed Arab armies from half a dozen nations. He promised them a nation, and now they have one, all that just doesn’t happen. Nations will be judged on how they treat Israel.
then you said-
So I ask- what part of this is not true? Did not the Red Sea drown Pharaoh’s Army? Germany was reduced to rubble?, and Israel has never been defeated on the field of battler no matter what odds it has faced. So God has kept his convenant with the Jewish people. The nation of Israel was created in a way that has never before or since, fullfilling all the prophecy. But if that doesn’t convince ya, then I dunno what else to tell ya, other than works for me.
I didn’t say the world, but nations. Might be conjecture on your part, but look at Eygpt. Once a great power, with a progressive society, but after mistreating the Jewish people God dealt with them, and look where they are today. And what happened to Germany speaks for itself.
So yes, I happen to believe defending and supporting God’s chosen people is a good thing in His eyes. But none of this matters if you don’t believe the Jewish people are his chosen, and He has no special convenant with them. Nothing you read here is gonna change your mind, If you do believe it, no further discussion is necessary.
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Ryan29
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If Bridgette Bardot observes that the Muslims are beginning to overpopulate she’s called a criminal on trial for “inciting racial hatred” yet, if the venerable fox news has another justification for distrusting and hating Muslims/Arabs then it’s truly a story to repeat.
The difference between Bardot and fox news is, the latter has an agenda to keep a foreign policy that has clearly running amok. Whilst Bardot is just making an observation about the country she lives in about the Muslims.
Anyway, what will the EU do about the Islamization of Europe, they have hate crime legislation that if a priest says anti-minority statement he is promptly arrested. All that Muslims have to do is move to Italy and have kids, have jobs and populate. What’s wrong with Muslims living in freedom? All minority groups in Europe; if they are Indians, Turks or Kurds are going to populate the gaps left by the Europeans that aren’t have babies. If Islam, Hinduism, or Buddhism spread into the gaps of where Christians are going to sleep on the watch then we can’t blame these other religious people looking for jobs. If a politician in Europe says that this is something to be stopped and to have a Christian country and to shut the gates on Muslims or others he or she will be arrested for the same thing that Bardot is on trial for in France.
The choice has only two options stop the “Islamization” and be called a racist, bigot and hater or let the Muslims continue doing what they are doing and Rome will be taken over. It doesn’t bode well for Europe does it? Who would make such laws that would disenpower the Christian majority? What people would make such aggressive laws that would be centered to target Christians like this, they are truly sinister wouldn’t you say? So which side is fox news on? Have they said that Rome should stay Christian? Have they said that the Muslims entering Italy or even Europe should be stopped?
No, they haven’t, and why not? I would really like to know besides the obvious reason. :twocents:
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BamaRider
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I agree with Ryan. If Europe goes Muslim it won’t be by force, just numbers. What is gonna happen when Hamas sympathizers begin running for office in Europe that host large Muslim populations? You think they’re gonna vote for a Catholic when his opponent is a Mullah?? :ehh:
Won’t happen in my lifetime, but we see the trend.
Won’t happen in my lifetime, but we see the trend.
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IvanKaramozov
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Firstly, I have been abrupt towards you, I’m sorry, I also thank you for the correction you gave me on another thread.
“What does it say about the Americans that they can’t handle their wars without paying a private cooperation to bear a major part of the load”
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Army
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_Army
They all seems to have Airborn, Armor, mechanised Infanty, light Infantry, and air forces.
They are certianly not as militairly dominate as the US, however they can certianly hold the capital from Palistanian militants.
As for Israel, the question of weather the Israelis have a specail covanent with God is distinct from weather the current Israeli government is good in the eyes of God. Israel now is quite different from historical Israel.
No election boils down to a single issue, I was in 9th grade I beleive when that happened, so I would ask you to prodice a poll or some sort of analysis to back up your claim.
alright.
Well that is a legitimate distinction, however given the thrust of your argument I don’t see how either is significantly different from the other.
“What does it say about the Americans that they can’t handle their wars without paying a private cooperation to bear a major part of the load”
wind currents, like jet streams.
If Russia knows takeing out France’s missels will doom their capital city, I think that’s a fairly good deterent
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Army
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Army
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_Army
They all seems to have Airborn, Armor, mechanised Infanty, light Infantry, and air forces.
They are certianly not as militairly dominate as the US, however they can certianly hold the capital from Palistanian militants.
Most of that 7% isin’t militarized, it’s primairly upperclass professionals who feel humiliated and politically impotent, and an acute sense of impending danger from the US or other external forces.
As for Israel, the question of weather the Israelis have a specail covanent with God is distinct from weather the current Israeli government is good in the eyes of God. Israel now is quite different from historical Israel.
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IvanKaramozov
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