Hand Clapping During Mass

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Orionthehunter:
You might lightly dismiss this man but I do not. He is Archbishop Giovanni Lajolo, Secretariat of State for the Vatican who reports to the Vatican Secretary who I think is directly under the Pope.

Additionally, I urge you to watch the WYD Mass. If you think that this was a Mass (the Pope’s first major Mass after his installation) that was thrust upon this Pope without his blessing, you have a very different impression of the control that this Pope has over his own staff than I do.
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You cannot dismiss Cardinal Arinze - Prefect of the Congregation for Divine Worship
 
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paramedicgirl:
I never said that she was pushy. You really take a lot of liberty interpreting my posts. It is rather amusing. 🙂
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Originally Posted by paramedicgirl
I assume by DRE you mean director of religious education. We don’t have one. All we have is one priest. No parish employees. No liturgical directors. Just some very pushy women who keep getting things their way by sheer force.
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LOL Who is pushy then?
 
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buffalo:
To my knowledge one doesn’t exist. This is one of these areas that may eventually be ruled upon.

Further you will find no document expressly forbidding cartwheels in the Sanctuary either.
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I thought there were documents which addressed dancing, theatrics and the like though, are you sure about that? Perhaps they don’t expressly forbid it, though, I suspect the language would be geared toward strongly not encouraging it.

The fact that the language ‘permitting’ applause certainly doesn’t mean it has to happen or has to be allowed, but it also doesn’t mean it should never happen. I think the wording was such that it should not become the norm, to which most parishes have complied - though your’s sure seems overly enthusiastic.

So can’t we at least agree that were the practice is not clearly prohibited we should defer to our superiors of the magesterium rather than spend time complaining about them?

I understand they are annoying to some, and pleasant to others, but the bottom line is - as with other things we have problems with in life - the spiritual challenge becomes for us how best to endure the annoyance in charity and with respect for Jesus residing within the person with the annoying behaviors. It is what Jesus calls us to do - He is helping us exercise our better virtues, and where we are weak in a particular virtue I have been told He most certainly will test us in those areas (I believe Fr. Corapi said so).
 
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buffalo:
You cannot dismiss Cardinal Arinze - Prefect of the Congregation for Divine Worship
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We are not dismissing him. When he is talkign about liturgical dance and “productions” made during the Mass, we take him at his word that that is what he is talking about. Special blessings and acknowledgements at the end of Mass AFTER THE CONCLUDING PRAYER, DURING THE CONCLUDING RITES, AND PRIOR TO THE FINAL BLESSING is something entirely different. Is this really that hard to see?

P.S. I’ve attended Mass celebrated by the Cardinal. He was in our Diocese during the Jubilee Year. I suppose I could call my friend at the diocese and ask to look thru those pictures to see if we clapped for him. If we did, I could then ask the Bishop if he got corrected for it. I’m sure that Cardinal Arinze wouldn’t hesitate to make it a teaching moment if it was inappropriate. By the way, I want everyone to know that his reading of the Eucharistic Prayer was the holiest and most inspirational EP I’ve ever heard.
 
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Orionthehunter:
Please site authority for your statement. 😉 I was in Rome this summer on the way to WYD and all the clapping I saw them do sure looked like it meant appreciation. The clapping at the WYD Mass conclusion also looked like appreciation. I assume the smile on the Pope’s face indicates something. Speakkng of World Youth Day, I think everyone who hasn’t watched the Mass done outside Cologne Germany needs to see it (it was a very typical youth Mass when you consider the music and the joy). It was the one of the holiest Masses I’ve ever been to. In addition to the Pope celebrating, the Body of Christ was exuberent in those 1 million of the most on fire Christians I’ve ever seen.
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When Italians clap it is a sign of respect.
Code: 
 	 [**World hails a leader who inspired faith and hope**](http://www.guardian.co.uk/pope/story/0,12272,1451361,00.html)
from the article
‘The Holy Father died this evening at 21.37 [local time] in his private apartment,’ the Vatican said in a statement.

The news was immediately was met with long applause, an Italian sign of respect. Bells tolled and people in the square openly wept at the news. Many in the crowd talked openly of ‘John Paul the Great’, an indication that the charismatic pontiff’s legacy will endure for decades to come.
 
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YinYangMom:
So can’t we at least agree that were the practice is not clearly prohibited we should defer to our superiors of the magesterium rather than spend time complaining about them?
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I personally will default to sacred silence and reverence. I can’t go wrong there.
 
I assume by DRE you mean director of religious education. We don’t have one. All we have is one priest. No parish employees. No liturgical directors. Just some very pushy women who keep getting things their way by sheer force.
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Liberties??
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paramedicgirl:
Actually, the invitation was from the coordinator of the CCD program. It was run by her and not priest, and the priest had nothing to do with the announcements and gift-giving that occured during Mass. It wasn’t a situation where there was a blessing from the priest. It was all to acknowledge the teachers. So please do not call me rude because I chose to go to the Saturday night Mass to avoid the gong show. I go to Mass to worship Jesus, not to be noticed.
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I assume by DRE you mean director of religious education. We don’t have one. All we have is one priest. No parish employees. No liturgical directors. Just some very pushy women who keep getting things their way by sheer force.
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In one post you say you have a coordinator, a woman, who did the inviting and giving of gifts.

In another you say you don’t have anyone but a priest and some very pushy women.

You also state it is the pushy women who force your priest to do these things against his will.

Perhaps if you’d keep your posts on point I wouldn’t have to take such liberties in putting 2 and 2 together.

So, help me to understand here:
You refused to go to the mass designated specifically for you (and the other RE volunteers) because you didn’t want to be a part of the gong show.
The invitation to that mass was given to you by a woman, the coordinator of the program.
The call for applause and gift giving was from this same woman, the coordinator who wanted to acknowledge your service.
But this woman isn’t one of those women who are using sheer force to get your priest to allow the coordinator to ask for a special mass for you and the other RE volunteers so that your service can be recognized with applause and gifts.

Do I have it correct now?

And yet, is this coordinator, still not a representative of the priest, and by extension the bishop?
Is this coordinator not doing a wonderful service to the parish and the diocese on behalf of our Lord?
Does this woman not deserve your respect as such?
When this woman invites you to a Mass in your honor you still don’t consider it rude or insulting to purposely avoid that Mass because you object to the practice which is not an abuse at all, but rather an honor?
 
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buffalo:
This may fall under - Cardinal Responds to Questions on Liturgy
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                Why make the people of God suffer so much? Haven't we enough problems already? Only Sunday, one hour, they come to adore God. And you bring a dance! Are you so poor you have nothing else to bring us? Shame on you! That's how I feel about it. 

                Somebody can say, "but the pope visited this county and the people danced". A moment: Did the pope arrange it? Poor Holy Father -- he comes, the people arranged. He does not know what they arranged. **And somebody introduces something funny -- is the pope responsible for that? Does that mean it is now approved? Did they put in on the table of the Congregation for Divine Worship? We would throw it out!** If people want to dance, they know where to go.
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Once again, this was in response to LITURGICAL DANCING. Find the quotes which address appropriate use of applause during a Mass and then we’ll be getting somewhere.
 
In regards to clapping at the late pope funeral in Ask the Apologist.

Were applause and chanting appropriate during JPII’s funeral Mass?

or this one
CA Ask the Apologist Clapping during music in Mass?
There are times during the liturgy when clapping is not only appropriate, it is required. During the ordination rite when the bishop asks for evidence that the man before him ought to be ordained to the priesthood, the congregation applauds its approval. But this does not mean that clapping is always appropriate.
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Is Clapping allowed at Mass?

God Bless,
Maria
 
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buffalo:
Rome is working on this so it is not as cut and dried as your statment “Rome does not”. Forbidding clapping almost made it into RS. There have been many things that have gone on in Rome and outside that Rome is course correcting us to the true intentions of VII.
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Very true. Thank you for pointing this out. One should not hastily argue that “it was done in a Mass at the Vatican, therefore it can be universally applied”.

If I recall, such a “cart before the horse” approach led to Masses being celebrated ad populum at a free-standing altar. Because Saint Peter’s is set up that way, everybody thought this was what the Vatican wanted everybody to have. In fact, this was never the intention of the Council.

One more thought on this: The word “holding” could be substituted for “clapping” in most of these posts . The same circular arguments can be made. I find that interesting.
:hmmm:
 
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msproule:
One more thought on this: The word “holding” could be substituted for “clapping” in most of these posts . The same circular arguments can be made. I find that interesting.
:hmmm:
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Me too!
 
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MrS:
He will only be dismissed by those who don’t or won’t agree with him. Same for the Pope etc.

God gave us common sense, but I wonder what the “progressives” or the “modernists” or the “empowered laity” did with their dose.

But keep up the good fight buffalo. Cardinal Arinze would be proud of you.
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I’m not so sure the Cardinal would be proud. The thread was about clapping at the end of Mass after the closing prayer and before the final blessing. The Committee on the Liturgy specifically mentions “special blessings” at this time are appropriate. We site numerous examples of it happening in the presence of the Pope and Archbishops (one of the Masses was directed and planned by the Papal staff themselves).

Buffalo posted dozens of times Cardinal Arinze’s statements (as if we didn’t read them the first time) and a quote from Pope Benedict about “liturgical dance” despite being repeatedly told this was not what we are talking about. This is basically an attempt to take their words out of context. If they weren’t specifically talking about liturgical dance, the use of the quotes would have been significantly less egregious.

I posted a picture at an ordination of an Archbishop that had an Archbishop who is in the Roman Curia and Vatican Secretariat of State leading a standing ovation. When presented with these facts, he dismissed and denigrated these Church leaders as part of the movement that is encouraging liturgical abuses.

Furthermore, he accused those of us who disagreed with him of being part of the group advocating or condoning liturgical abuses or those advocating dissenting from instruction from our Bishop. Both are false if you’d read the posts. I especially take exception since I’m taking my lead from what I observed at the Archbishop ordination and what my Bishop has done at Confirmation in my parish. My Bishop is known nationally for his diligence and dedication to proper liturgy.

Your comment MRS also seems to put those who disagree in the group of “abusers and dissenters” and for that I take offense.

P.S. Equating holding hands during the Lord’s Prayer and expressions of appreciation and affection at the end of Mass are not the same thing and absurd. These are two distinct issues.

P.SS. I can’t wait to see the dismissal of the apologist’s comments linked to us by Maria.
 
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buffalo:
Anything that is not proscribed can fall under abuse. The rubrics do not say what we cannot do, they say what we should do and do not address every crazy innovation anyone comes up with. What you are claiming is a sort of legalism that if we do not see a document expressly forbidding something we can do it. This is not so!
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Yes, they can fall under abuse.
But the examples we’ve cited as appropriate occasions for applause do not fall under the category of abuse.

The point is, not **all **applause occasions are abusive. Some, may be, most are not. It is not our place to determine what is or what isn’t, it is at the discretion of the priest. Our place is to respectfully obey and comply.
 
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buffalo:
When Italians clap it is a sign of respect.

World hails a leader who inspired faith and hope

from the article
‘The Holy Father died this evening at 21.37 [local time] in his private apartment,’ the Vatican said in a statement.

The news was immediately was met with long applause, an Italian sign of respect. Bells tolled and people in the square openly wept at the news. Many in the crowd talked openly of ‘John Paul the Great’, an indication that the charismatic pontiff’s legacy will endure for decades to come.
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Guess what? When a congregation of U.S. parishioners applaud their religious education teachers, couples married for 50 years, youth returning from WYD, newly baptized members of the church and newlyweds, it, too, is a sign of respect as well as appreciation. We are celebrating God working through all these people - the future of the Church.

So, what? You’d be willing to concede applause of Italian respect is allowed but applause of American respect and appreciation is not? I don’t believe Rome has made such a distinction.
 
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Orionthehunter:
I can’t wait to see the dismissal of the apologist’s comments linked to us by Maria.
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Dismissed or just ignored. But I seem to be getting used to that;)
 
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YinYangMom:
Whoa…since when are “Traditional Catholics” only those who attend the Tridentine Mass? :ehh:
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DID I say that Traditional Catholic’s are the only ones who
attend the Tridentene Mass? NOT. I said and I quote from
MYown words:

“May I ask Tradtional Catholic’s here the same question?
Was hand clapping part of the Tridentene Mass? Is it
practiced at an approved Latin Mass? Have any who
attended either the Tridentene Mass, or an approved Latin
Mass ever hand clapped?”

I did not imply that they ARE the ONLY ones who attend
the Tridentene Mass did I? I asked Tradional Catholics
IF clapping was part of the Tridentene Mass. DON’T
give others the wrong impression about what I said!
 
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