Hand Clapping During Mass

[msproule]

Orionthehunter:

P.S. Equating holding hands during the Lord’s Prayer and expressions of appreciation and affection at the end of Mass are not the same thing and absurd. These are two distinct issues.

As I understood it, this thread is not just about applause at the end of Mass. Anyway, the point is that the same arguments can be made by either side, for either issue. There is no clear-cut direction from the Church (in fact, there seems to be confusion and contradiction). That is how these two things are related.

I can’t wait to see the dismissal of the apologist’s comments linked to us by Maria.

You probably will not get any refutations to the “Ask an Apologist” links. I almost posted links to them myself, because they do not clearly support either side of this argument.

We could take this debate a step further regarding the Funeral Mass for Pope John Paul II; The GIRM (382) states that in such Masses, there should be only a “short homily, but never a eulogy of any kind”. Since Cardinal Ratzinger thought it was OK, I guess we should always do it.

 

[YinYangMom]

buffalo:

I personally will default to sacred silence and reverence. I can’t go wrong there.

Sure you can.
IF the priest is asking the entire congregation to applaud and you refuse, you are defying his request.
That is disobedience.

 

[YinYangMom]

Marilena:

DID I say that Traditional Catholic’s are the only ones who
attend the Tridentene Mass? NOT. I said and I quote from
MYown words:

“May I ask Tradtional Catholic’s here the same question?
Was hand clapping part of the Tridentene Mass? Is it
practiced at an approved Latin Mass? Have any who
attended either the Tridentene Mass, or an approved Latin
Mass ever hand clapped?”

I did not imply that they ARE the ONLY ones who attend
the Tridentene Mass did I? I asked Tradional Catholics
IF clapping was part of the Tridentene Mass. DON’T
give others the wrong impression about what I said!

Except that “traditional catholics” have already been asked the question so you don’t have to ask it twice.

To say, “May I ask Traditional Catholic’s here the same question” implies there are no Traditional Catholics currently posting in this thread about clapping during Mass.

Had you instead posted:

May I ask of anyone here (or on these boards, if you were trying to draw those reading only and not posting into the conversation) who attend Tridentine Masses the same question?

Then it would have been clear to whom you were speaking.
Notice it also doesn’t categorize anyone as being ‘traditional’, ‘liberal’, ‘in-between’ but clearly identifies the specific poster you would like to hear from.

 

[YinYangMom]

msproule:

We could take this debate a step further regarding the Funeral Mass for Pope John Paul II; The GIRM (382) states that in such Masses, there should be only a “short homily, but never a eulogy of any kind”. Since Cardinal Ratzinger thought it was OK, I guess we should always do it.

There you go again…who here is suggesting applause should always be done at every mass for every occasion? NO ONE!

What is it with you people with the ‘all or nothing’ approach to life and all its nuances?

 

[maryj]

YinYangMom:

Sure you can.
IF the priest is asking the entire congregation to applaud and you refuse, you are defying his request.
That is disobedience.

I’m clapping again!!!

 

[Marilena]

YinYangMom:

Except that “traditional catholics” have already been asked the question so you don’t have to ask it twice.

To say, “May I ask Traditional Catholic’s here the same question” implies there are no Traditional Catholics currently posting in this thread about clapping during Mass.

Had you instead posted:

May I ask of anyone here (or on these boards, if you were trying to draw those reading only and not posting into the conversation) who attend Tridentine Masses the same question?

Then it would have been clear to whom you were speaking.
Notice it also doesn’t categorize anyone as being ‘traditional’, ‘liberal’, ‘in-between’ but clearly identifies the specific poster you would like to hear from.

Well did ever occur to you that Iam NEW here and did NOT
know this question HAD been ASKED twice? obviously not!
How am I supposed to know whois liberal and who is not?
Itis clear to whom Iam speaking, to Traditonal Catholic’s who
attend the Tridentene Mass, and to ANYONE who went to
either that one or the approved Latin Mass! Also note please.
that Excuse me for NOT being so clear as you’d like me to be!
DID it EVER occur to you that not everyone who comes here
has as much knowledge and questioning skills as you do?
Or has the ability to ask it the way you see they should?
Iam not a very highly educated individual, and excuse me
for not having the proper skills! Sheesh!

 

[YinYangMom]

With regard to the holding of hands, I for one, never liked that practice. It was sooooo difficult for me to comply with but I did, out of respect for the authority of the Church through the priest of our parishes.

I clearly remember the mass when the priest introduced the change in practice. Oy vey! The way he read the guidelines though seemed perfectly clear that the directive was coming from a higher source than him, so I deferred my objections, respected that higher authority and obeyed.

Boy was I relieved when years later the priest read another directive which declared the practice ‘optional’. Whew

I’m still waiting for the day the priest gets to read it no longer is authorized, but until then I certainly won’t refuse my hand from someone who extends theirs to me knowing it’s an option (I have to assume the person somehow needs my cooperation here to help him/her get closer to God at the moment). I certainly won’t be the one initiating a hand holding moment with my neighbor since I don’t need that extra touch and I can assume they don’t either since they didn’t extend their hand.

But the fact of the matter is, hand holding was a directive issued from some higher authority and for a while was the practice and still is optional so no one can call that a form of abuse.

I’d definitely file it under the category: Examples of Vatican II Taken Out of Context and Driven to the Extreme

 

[YinYangMom]

Marilena:

Well did ever occur to you that Iam NEW here and did NOT
know this question HAD been ASKED twice? obviously not!
How am I supposed to know whois liberal and who is not?
Itis clear to whom Iam speaking, to Traditonal Catholic’s who
attend the Tridentene Mass, and to ANYONE who went ot either that one or the approved Latin Mass! Also note please. that
Excuse me for NOT being so clear as you’d like me to be!
DID it EVER occur to you that not everyone who comes here
has as much knowledge and questioning skills as you do?
Or has the ability to ask it the way you see they should?
Iam not a very highly educated individual, and excuse me
for not having the proper skills! Sheesh!

Trust me, I’ve been in your shoes here on the boards, having had my share of having my posts taken as offensive where no offense was intended, and shredded to bits. I understand your reaction.

It is because those posters took the time to show me how my posting skills left my intentions open to misinterpretation that I’ve become more ‘thorough’ in my posts. What helped me is dropping my defensive posture even though I wanted to fight, like you did here (you did good with that, by the way, properly calling me to the carpet for not being patient) long enough to get a grasp of what people mean when they use certain words.

For a long time I didn’t post at all but I read almost everything, following the links to articles, and then I started posting again with specific questions like, “What is the difference between a Traditional Catholic and a Catholic?” I learned to be direct and concise, no longer assuming people here would understand my limited vocabulary. The people here, even those who twisted my words the most, were most helpful to me. They really helped me learn a lot of this terminology which was so new to me. Boy did I feel infantile in my faith. It was quite humbling especially since I’m a cradle Catholic (one baptized as an infant), raised in the faith, attended 9 years of Catholic school and a Catholic University, and never stopped practicing my faith. Please try not to take much offense at posters who come at you like I did, just remind them, as you did me, that you’re new and that now would be a good time for them to exercise a bit of charity and patience

So, since you’re new, and I do apologize for not paying attention to a poster’s ‘Join Date’ (I’ve learned yet another etiquette skill thanks to you) may I please ask:

What does Traditional Catholic mean to you?

To me it is one who respects and adheres to the Traditions of the Catholic Church, accepts the infallibility of the magesterium of the Church and follows the Precepts of the Catholic Church.

Since Novus Ordo or Tridentine does not enter into my understanding of the term “Traditional” I hope you can see now why the question you raise, the way you raised it, left me confused and a bit offended. Both forms are approved by Rome, but the Tridentine requres the local bishop’s authorization currently to be offered in the U.S. Many are hoping and praying that one day that restriction will be lifted.

 

[msproule]

YinYangMom:

There you go again…who here is suggesting applause should always be done at every mass for every occasion? NO ONE!

What is it with you people with the ‘all or nothing’ approach to life and all its nuances?

YinYangMom,

Please recall that in my situation, it does happen at every Mass. At least, every Mass for which one of the faithful has a birthday. I would estimate that it happens about 90% of the time. This past Sunday it also happened after Father deferred the homily to a woman who spoke about something completely unrelated (I do not even recall what she said). Needless to say, she got a generous round of applause.

My ridiculous situation aside, I was using hyperbole to make a point. Of course I know you are not advocating that it be allowed for every situation. I think you made that clear in posts #55 and #68. However, if it is allowed “sometimes”, then why not allow it “all the time”? What are the criteria under which it should be condoned or forbidden?

Like hand holding, it should be optional. Therefore, though I lack any authority I suggest we postpone the applause until after the blessing and dismissal. In so doing, those who are uncomfortable need not feel pressured into obligatory participation. If those being honored are offended by those who choose to depart, then the focus was never in the right place to begin with.

 

[Marilena]

Yinyangmom:

First of all, I did not intend to “fight” with anyone. As
for offending you, I had no intention of doing that. I have
not the educational background that you obviously do.
Sometimes when I want to ask something, what I intend
to say and mean doesn’t mean the same thing as how
someone else interprets it. Traditonal Catholic to me means people who adhere to the pre Vatican 2. That only means it
to me, Iam not implying that it means that to others. I myself
like Tradional Catholicism. I like the Tridentene Mass. Have I attended one? No. Will I go to an approved Latin Mass?
Indeed! I was really only wondering if any pre Vatican 2
Traditonal Catholic’s had heard of hand clapping at the
Tridentene Mass. I guess I should have stated that clearly.
Like I said, Iam not the swiftest runner on the block! May I
ask why you went after Paramedicgirl so much? I agree with
her totally. I think she is 100% right.

 

[Ferdinand_Mary]

General Reminder:

The charity level of this discussion appears to be deteriorating. Please self-edit for tone and content before clicking the “Submit” button. If the charity level does not improve, this thread will have to be locked. Thank you for your understanding and cooperation.

 

[Walt_Oliver]

For a group of Catholics discussing the Holy Mass, the charity level in this thread is horrible.

Please do not attack/discuss each other. This is easily done by simply sticking to the topic.

The thread will be closed if the general tenor of the posts does not improve and additional action may be taken at the discretion of the forum moderator.

Thank you for your cooperation.

Walt

 

[Marilena]

Agreed I’ll do my best to adhere to the rules

 

[MariaG]

msproule:

As I understood it, this thread is not just about applause at the end of Mass. Anyway, the point is that the same arguments can be made by either side, for either issue. There is no clear-cut direction from the Church (in fact, there seems to be confusion and contradiction). That is how these two things are related.
But most have agreed that clapping, for example, in appreciation of the choir is wrong. But we are not agreed on whether or not it is appropriate at the end of Mass for various reasons, usually having to do with Good things God has done through man.

You probably will not get any refutations to the “Ask an Apologist” links. I almost posted links to them myself, because they do not clearly support either side of this argument.

Really? One side says clapping is never appropriate. Other says appropriate judgement must be used. What does CA say?

from Ask the Apologist

There are times during the liturgy when clapping is not only appropriate, it is required. During the ordination rite when the bishop asks for evidence that the man before him ought to be ordained to the priesthood, the congregation applauds its approval. But this does not mean that clapping is always appropriate.

It is important to remember what Mass is. It is the sacrifice of Calvary brought concretely into our lives on the altar. If we were standing at the foot of the cross so many years ago, would we really want to clap?

Fr. Vincent Serpa, O.P.
We could take this debate a step further regarding the Funeral Mass for Pope John Paul II; The GIRM (382) states that in such Masses, there should be only a “short homily, but never a eulogy of any kind”. Since Cardinal Ratzinger thought it was OK, I guess we should always do it.

We could but that really wouldn’t help this particular discussion.

 

[msproule]

MariaG:

But most have agreed that clapping, for example, in appreciation of the choir is wrong. But we are not agreed on whether or not it is appropriate at the end of Mass for various reasons, usually having to do with Good things God has done through man.

I have never witnessed, in person, applause used explicitly to show appreciation to God for His works through man. If this is how the situation is presented to the faithful and they understand it that way, my opinion would change dramatically. I acknowledge that at times it may be acceptable if this is really the underlying purpose. I have simply never been present for one of those situations.

By the way, I was referring to Michelle Arnold’s responses in the “Ask an Apologist” forum. Father Vincent Serpa’s reply is in regard to an ordination ceremony, which is a truly special circumstance. (In other words, it was not a birthday!)

Before dismissing the point about the homily at the Funeral Mass, understand that it was made in order to clarify that just because we see it in one special circumstance, it does not give license to everybody else to do the same. The fact that Cardinal Ratzinger did not halt the applause was being interpreted by some to mean that the Church fully condoned the practice.

 

[Traditional_Ang]

buffalo:

Why not a prayer of recognition, instead?

Buffalo:

I believe the appropriate place for awards, etc. is at the “Coffee Hour” or “Agape Meal” after Mass. I can see an exception for cheering the organist/choir/schola AFTER the is over and the Sacred Minsters have left the Sanctuary, and are outside the building.

Then these things won’t interrupt the Mass or detract from the reason we’re there, which is to worship and receive our Lord.

AI see a few problems - One is that there are people who are primarily seeking attention, and they don’t care if they have to disrupt the Mass to do that. Another is the idea that Mass has to last no more than one hour.

I wonder what people who believe that or live that would have done with a Tridentine Solemn High Mass Lasting 2 to 2-1/2 hours? Or, How would they deal with an Eastern Divine Liturgy lasting 3 hours?

I’m not saying that Mass has to last 3 hours, but one hour is not really enough to really worship and thank Him for the Gift of the Eucharist, and then that gets reduced still further so people can interrupt the Mass with some awards and applause.

We just have to learn to stay after Mass and to do awards, etc. at the “Coffee Hour” or “Agape Meal”. We’ll also find that, if we stay for the Coffe Hour/Agape Meal, we’ll start getting to know each other.

Just my thinking.

In Christ, Michael

 

[Henry_Arnold-Ba]

I do feel as strongly as the writer about hand-clapping, but there is one very ancient exception to the rule. It has always been customary to clap for the Holy Father, even at Mass.

 

[stargazer257]

(Note: I planned to post this about 100 posts ago, but my internet connection was down. Boy this thread sure got heated, as if it wasn’t hot enough already. It’s good to see the level of Christian charity returning. Thank you moderators for your good work.)

Here is what I see we have in common here. I believe we all agree that applause during certain times of the mass is inappropriate. We also agree that applause for something not related to say, someone’s ministry or Christian witness is also inappropriate. I think that’s safe to say. But aside from these points, I see two main camps on this thread.

One which has a belief that any, and if I read it correctly, ANY, clapping at anytime during the mass is sacrilegious.

The other has a belief that honoring our (future) saints on earth who humbly accept our appreciation for their Christian witness is acceptable, and while doing so, hopefully inspiring others to step up and make God a bigger part of their lives than just 60 minutes on Sunday. A brief announcement with a simple sign of approval from the parish is found to be acceptable with the bishop of my diocese (and the GIRM), and at a time during the mass documented to be appropriate for these brief announcements.

It should be obvious that I am in the second camp on this.

Now as Catholics we honor our Blessed Mother and the saints in heaven during the mass, and do you think that God is upset by this? Of course not, Jesus honored his mother and is pleased that we do the same, be it during the mass or otherwise. What is wrong with the Body of Christ honoring one or some of its humble servants? Is God displeased with this? Are we taking our focus away from God? Is God saying “hey you, stop recognizing their accomplishments in My Name; look at Me and only Me.” You know, in my humble opinion, I just don’t think so.

For those of you in the first camp, I don’t agree with your defense of your position (which you are entitled to have). I have to believe that God doesn’t look at our recognition of his faithful servants as sacrilegious or “bad.” I believe that honoring members of the Body of Christ during an appropriate part of the mass is pleasing to God. I believe God is smiling upon us, the Body of Christ; and maybe even clapping himself.

Sincerely and in Christ,

SG257

PS, I hope I represented both sides fairly.

PPS, until the GIRM is changed on this and/or my Bishop decides to give us different direction, I have to follow his lead, don’t I?

 

[Traditional_Ang]

(Note: I planned to post this about 100 posts ago, but my internet connection was down. Boy this thread sure got heated, as if it wasn’t hot enough already. It’s good to see the level of Christian charity returning. Thank you moderators for your good work.)

Here is what I see we have in common here. I believe we all agree that applause during certain times of the mass is inappropriate. We also agree that applause for something not related to say, someone’s ministry or Christian witness is also inappropriate. I think that’s safe to say. But aside from these points, I see two main camps on this thread.

One which has a belief that any, and if I read it correctly, ANY, clapping at anytime during the mass is sacrilegious.

The other has a belief that honoring our (future) saints on earth who humbly accept our appreciation for their Christian witness is acceptable, and while doing so, hopefully inspiring others to step up and make God a bigger part of their lives than just 60 minutes on Sunday. A brief announcement with a simple sign of approval from the parish is found to be acceptable with the bishop of my diocese (and the GIRM), and at a time during the mass documented to be appropriate for these brief announcements.

It should be obvious that I am in the second camp on this.

Now as Catholics we honor our Blessed Mother and the saints in heaven during the mass, and do you think that God is upset by this? Of course not, Jesus honored his mother and is pleased that we do the same, be it during the mass or otherwise. What is wrong with the Body of Christ honoring one or some of its humble servants? Is God displeased with this? Are we taking our focus away from God? Is God saying “hey you, stop recognizing their accomplishments in My Name; look at Me and only Me.” You know, in my humble opinion, I just don’t think so.

For those of you in the first camp, I don’t agree with your defense of your position (which you are entitled to have). I have to believe that God doesn’t look at our recognition of his faithful servants as sacrilegious or “bad.” I believe that honoring members of the Body of Christ during an appropriate part of the mass is pleasing to God. I believe God is smiling upon us, the Body of Christ; and maybe even clapping himself.

Sincerely and in Christ,

SG257

PS, I hope I represented both sides fairly.

PPS, until the GIRM is changed on this and/or my Bishop decides to give us different direction, I have to follow his lead, don’t I?

Stargazer257:

I would say that you probably have not represented “camp 1” accurately, or at least what i tried to say and saw others trying to say. The term “Sacreligious” has to do with Dogma or Doctrine. What we’re dealing with here is an issue og discipline and how best to worship our Lord. Therefore, I could not call handclapping “Sacreligious”. I would only say that it detracts from our worship of God and takes our focus off of Him.

Believe it or not, that’s where He wants it, at least for that paltry 60 minutes that we grudgingly give Him every Sunday.

There is a more appropriate place for this to occur, one which I believe you will find aids in parish bonding and helps people to get to know each other. That’s during the “Coffee Hour” or the “Agape Meal” after Mass.

You will also find this helps the parish priest to relax and recover his bearings between Masses, esp. if your parish can schedule Masses far enough apart so that each Mass can have its own “Coffee Hour” or “Agape” after Mass.

I was recently privileged to participate in some well-merited whopping and hollering for a thoroughly embarrassed couple who were celebrating their 56th Wedding Anniversary. I’m sure we couldn’t have been that unabashed during Mass, and the couple felt very much loved by the parish.

The GIRM prescribes handclapping or applause when:
New Christians are Baptized,
Catholics are Confirmed,
Couples are Married in the Church,
Deacons or Priests are Ordained,
Bishops are Consecrated or Installed (also applies to a Pope),
Churches or Alters are Consecrated for Use, and
Congregations are Accepted into the Church.

These are events in the Life of the Church in which we all particpate.

It’s otherwise discouraged.

I believe people should be acknowledged - It’s just that there is a time and a place, and we shouldn’t rob from the little bit we give to God in order to do it.

I hope this make what you called the “camp A” position a little clearer.

In Christ, Mchael

 

[paramedicgirl]

msproule:

I have never witnessed, in person, applause used explicitly to show appreciation to God for His works through man. If this is how the situation is presented to the faithful and they understand it that way, my opinion would change dramatically. I acknowledge that at times it may be acceptable if this is really the underlying purpose. I have simply never been present for one of those situations. .

That is also the situation for me. Clapping happens at almost every one of our Masses. It is spontaneos, initiated by the parishioners. I have never once seen our priest initiate the applause or even request it. While people are clapping, he smiles, but does not clap himself. Therefore, I do not think there is any disobedience attached to not clapping along with them.

A few weeks ago, our mayor starting clapping at something our priest was saying during his homily!

People start clapping during the announcements

People clap after the announcements.

People clap for the person making the announcements if she has been on holidays and says she’s glad to be back.

People clap if they really liked a song just played by the choir.

And then people clap along to the music, especially, Lord of the Dance. But there are also others they clap to.

Never once has our priest requested this type of behaviour, initiated it or participated in it. (And, oh, he doesn’t smile at all of the above)

msproule:

Before dismissing the point about the homily at the Funeral Mass, understand that it was made in order to clarify that just because we see it in one special circumstance, it does not give license to everybody else to do the same. The fact that Cardinal Ratzinger did not halt the applause was being interpreted by some to mean that the Church fully condoned the practice.

I agree with the above statement.