Hand holding in the OF during the OF

[Irish_Polock]

I don’t agree mysticism and the charismatic movement are one and the same.

But as an aside, today during a holy hour of adoration, I felt myself begin to lift out of my body. I don’t know how to explain it. It frightened me and I just grabbed the pew in front of me until the feeling passed.

And no I’m not crazy, folks.

This is what I can’t get past, sure, I have had an experience with our BVM while in a coma for seven days, and I saw her briefly before I complicated my life… warning me (long story). Yet, I have never needed anything other then the faith I had - which was almost non-existent at the time - to be able to accept these gifts. I certainly didn’t need the CCR to ensure or facilitate my belief that they were real (I knew nothing of Catholicism, nor the CCR at the time), nor did the many saints before this day and age. Why the CCR folks don’t realize that they are cultivating doubt in reference to these gifts, I’ll never understand.

I don’t think you’re crazy, honestly I understand, and desire the same thing you have experienced.

 

[Irish_Polock]

I’m not sure you havn’t read that into my comments, or…

Jesus said to him in reply, “You have said so." (Matthew 26:64)

Sorry… couldn’t resist.

What I am saying is, that if we we want to function properly in heaven, or not spend a long time in purgatory, we had better get over the pride of not wanting to do another’s will, instead wanting to do our own will.

The person next to us is not trying to dominate us, but as followers of Christ who made himself like a slave, we are to imitate him and enter into the state of being a servant. In Jesus’ radical new commandment of love where an enemy who want’s to kill us recievs an offer of friendship and we wash the feet of those who serve us, we enter into that way as a state of being. If we want to function in heaven, the state of being as a servant has to be our natural disposition. In this state of being, when someone reaches out his hand to hold ours, we respond with the mind of a servant.

Yes, it is awkward. When we stand there with our hands in the prayer position and the person next to us extends his hand toward us, there will be that awkard moment. But Jesus has just given us a chance, in His presence, to do the will of another and not our own will. Jesus, present on the altar, has just presented us with an opportunity to be just like him on the Cross, doing not our own will, but the will of another.

Not my will but yours be done. (Luke 22:42)

That awkwardness is Jesus asking you a question. Do you do your own will and refuse that person’s hand,? Or do you put aside your will and do another’s will. And it is such a small, insignificant thing, holding someone’s hand for a minute while we all pray. It’s not like we are being crucified or something.

-Tim-

My neighbors will, is not Gods will. It is not that simple.

 

[stanczyk]

That’s exactly what I believe, thanks for sharing that.

Thank you, it was my pleasure. Thank you for raising the topic, it was interesting to research that. The translations you posted got me very curious about the original. Of the translations you posted earlier, I prefer the Douay Rheims, as is typically the case for me.

 

[MartyrForJesus]

Thank you, it was my pleasure. Thank you for raising the topic, it was interesting to research that. The translations you posted got me very curious about the original. Of the translations you posted earlier, I prefer the Douay Rheims, as is typically the case for me.

Yes, I agree. The Douay Rheims is one of the most accurate.

 

[MarcusAndreas]

or maybe they will look back when the practice has stopped and wonder what was going on back then and wonder why did they feel the need to hold hands during the Our Father to show they were praying together as a community when the whole Mass is a community prayer.

Sue

It’s called a joke.

 

[LilHomemaker]

It’s called a joke.

Sue

 

[LilHomemaker]

Yes, there are other ways. There are always other times. Always other.

And do this because you know the time; it is the hour now for you to awake from sleep. For our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed; (Romans 13:11)

It has been a long day for me. Goodnight everyone.

-Tim-

There is an appointed time for everything, and a time for every affair under the heavens. Ecclesiastes 3:1

a time to embrace, and a time to be far from embraces. Ecclesiastes 3:5



Sue

 

[Julianna]

I know this is a separate issue, but is smiling quasi-liberal, too? Is all human contact, even outside of mass? I respect your right to view this as you want, but I just wonder sometimes whether traditional Catholics take stoicism to an unprecedented and frightening level.

excellent observation.

 

[TrueLight]

excellent observation.

Do trads not smile?

 

[brotherjoe]

Yes, and doesn’t St. Paul warn of senseless babbling?

I did not believe in praying in tongues myself until it happened to me - the experience was very focused on Christ. If you carefully read 1 Cor 14, St. Paul is not saying that praying in tongues is senseless babbling, only that it will appear so to the unbeliever. He said that he himself prayed in tongues (not human) and that it was of the Holy Spirit.

He also agreed that praying in tongues is no big deal - the greatest gift is Love - which can be expressed in the holding of hands…

 

[Irish_Polock]

I did not believe in praying in tongues myself until it happened to me - the experience was very focused on Christ. If you carefully read 1 Cor 14, St. Paul is not saying that praying in tongues is senseless babbling, only that it will appear so to the unbeliever. He said that he himself prayed in tongues (not human) and that it was of the Holy Spirit.

St. Paul also said the gift prophecy would pass away, and the gift of tongues would cease - not “pass away” such as prophecy and knowledge - cease. Early Church Father are silent on the tongues spoken of in 1 Cor… It is also possible that the tongues that we read about in 1 Cor. had become obscure in St. Paul’s time. (1 Corinthians 14:19) St. Paul even thought that it was better to speak so that it can be understood then to speak in tongues. Further, as you mentioned below, tongues, was the least of the gifts and St. Paul encouraged the Corinthians to seek the other gifts - namely love, and to only accept gifts that had been tested.

He also agreed that praying in tongues is no big deal - the greatest gift is Love - which can be expressed in the holding of hands…

I am not sure you understand, holding hands is acceptable - even encouraged, outside of our liturgy.

 

[elibrimom]

This is so ridiculous why not hold hands. We are of flesh. We feel comfort with flesh. We feel God with touch. Is nothing wrong… Is a natural progression.

 

[YoungTradCath]

This is so ridiculous why not hold hands. We are of flesh. We feel comfort with flesh. We feel God with touch. Is nothing wrong… Is a natural progression.

Not really. I feel it’s an unnecessary glorification of the self when done in a way as to make a public spectacle of it, such as when families lift their hands five feet in the air while holding hands. Hold hands? Okay. But don’t do it in a distracting or “look at me I love my family” way. And don’t do the orans position at all.

 

[MartyrForJesus]

Not really. I feel it’s an unnecessary glorification of the self when done in a way as to make a public spectacle of it, such as when families lift their hands five feet in the air while holding hands. Hold hands? Okay. But don’t do it in a distracting or “look at me I love my family” way. And don’t do the orans position at all.

Holding hands shouldn’t be done at all during the Our Father because it’s discouraged, and it’s out of place.

While there are no directions as to the posture of the faithful, the rubrics clearly direct the priest and any concelebrants to pray the Our Father with hands extended — so they at least should not hold hands.

One could argue that holding hands expresses the family union of the Church. But our singing or reciting the prayer in unison already expresses this element.

The act of holding hands usually emphasizes group or personal unity from the human or physical point of view and is thus more typical of the spontaneity of small groups. Hence it does not always transfer well into the context of larger gatherings where some people feel uncomfortable and a bit imposed upon when doing so.

The use of this practice during the Our Father could detract and distract from the prayer’s God-directed sense of adoration and petition, as explained in Nos. 2777-2865 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, in favor of a more horizontal and merely human meaning.

• ewtn.com/library/liturgy/zlitur10.htm

 

[ProVobis]

This is so ridiculous why not hold hands. We are of flesh. We feel comfort with flesh. We feel God with touch. Is nothing wrong… Is a natural progression.

I believe it could be construed as sexual harassment if done within the workplace environment. Just saying.

 

[TrueLight]

I believe it could be construed as sexual harassment if done within the workplace environment. Just saying.

 

[YoungTradCath]

When hand holding is done spontaneously and not as a reaction to “me being present in the liturgy,” that is to say, the, “I’m at mass, so now we’re going to hold hands because I’m at mass and that’s just what we do!” attitude isn’t there, then I think it’s fine.

If, say, a priest is celebrating mass in a bomb shelter after a disaster and the people spontaneously feel a rush of emotion at being able to witness the sacrifice at Calvary, and that emotion is so great as to make them want to hold hands, then that’s fine. Let them hold hands. We might even extend this as far as married couples holding hands sometimes during mass, just as they sometimes would walking up the street or perusing the mall.

However, when this goes so far as to become the de facto posture, as if it were a rubric, then it has gone past its welcome. This is especially true when this is done with hands raised. It is completely annoying and distracting, not to mention appearing severely attention-seeking, when there are human chains of people with their hands two feet above their heads. I’m sure there are many people who are quite uncomfortable doing this, but feel pressured to and then cave in for fear of being labelled. People shouldn’t have to wear a sign on their shirts at mass to show that they don’t want to hold hands.

When done as a fully private (even if it may be during mass), very discrete action and not as a public, attention-seeking one, even in appearances, then I think it is fine. What makes the difference is two things: the level of the hands (are they naturally hanging low or are they reaching for the ceiling?) and when people reach across the gaps of pews between the nave and the transept. If hands are high and/or people are reaching across, that is when it infringes and becomes a public act, because it becomes distracting.

And the orans position by the laity is always and everywhere wrong in the mass.

PS: I can actually say that before writing this post, I had never even thought about the gorgeous doxology at the end of the Our Father because of truly being distracted by the arms in the air. That motion kills my line of thought. After writing this thus far, I have been reminded of it and have thought about its poetry. Thanks hand-holders for ruining a bit of my concentration at mass. I mean that in all seriousness. Thankfully, though, it seems the number of people who do it at my parish is shrinking.

I think it’s worth arguing if a posture can be added to the mass. The first criteria I would use to determine that is if it can be reasonably ever done in such a way as to call attention to the self or if it can be reasonably ever done in such a way as to distract from prayer. Hand holding and the orans posture both violate those criteria.

 

[CB_Catholic]

I think too much is being made of the subject of hand-holding, and it is probably the least of our worries in the Church today.

I don’t think it came from the Charismatic Renewal, because I was in that and it is not really a common posture. However, AA and Al-Anon are very widespread and many Catholics experienced the holding of hands at the end of meetings (I was in Al-Anon, and that was the first time I had ever held hands during the Our Father. ) There was a lot of 12 Step Literature and self-help literature published in the 70’s and 80’s, and people were using these programs as guides for their own. I believe this gradually made it’s way into Mass via the 12-step programs. Whether that is an organic development or not, I really, like almost all of us here, can’t say. However, because it seems to have come from the heartfelt desire of the people to somehow express their unity under our Father, it just might be. Also, it is not a Protestant thing, either. Both Catholics and Protestants seemed to have adopted this.

However, given the state of the Christian world today, and the state of society, and the mass persecution of Christians around the world, and the bigoted attitude towards Catholics in this country from the Media and the possibility that we may actually have to face persecution ourselves at some point in the near future, someday it might not seem such a bad idea to reach out to one another during the Liturgy in this manner. In any case, I really doubt that God is offended at all when His children hold hands (even though I don’t do it).

 

[Julianna]

Do trads not smile?

on occasion…but not at you during Mass

 

[Julianna]

I think too much is being made of the subject of hand-holding, and it is probably the least of our worries in the Church today.

I don’t think it came from the Charismatic Renewal, because I was in that and it is not really a common posture. However, AA and Al-Anon are very widespread and many Catholics experienced the holding of hands at the end of meetings (I was in Al-Anon, and that was the first time I had ever held hands during the Our Father. ) There was a lot of 12 Step Literature and self-help literature published in the 70’s and 80’s, and people were using these programs as guides for their own. I believe this gradually made it’s way into Mass via the 12-step programs. Whether that is an organic development or not, I really, like almost all of us here, can’t say. However, because it seems to have come from the heartfelt desire of the people to somehow express their unity under our Father, it just might be. Also, it is not a Protestant thing, either. Both Catholics and Protestants seemed to have adopted this.

However, given the state of the Christian world today, and the state of society, and the mass persecution of Christians around the world, and the bigoted attitude towards Catholics in this country from the Media and the possibility that we may actually have to face persecution ourselves at some point in the near future, someday it might not seem such a bad idea **to reach out to one another during the Liturgy in this manner. In any case, I really doubt that God is offended at all when His children hold hands **(even though I don’t do it).

:tiphat::tiphat::clapping::clapping:

I have observed hand holding mostly by “families”…and I believe, it calms the little ones ages 4-8…