Hand "Posture"

[rcn]

dumspirospero:

I believe it to be a very pious and holy look.

See, here’s the thing. People do a lot of things to try to “look” pious. But it just doesn’t work that way. Veils are not pious, and holding one’s hands in an absurdly uncomfortable-looking manner is not more pious than any other posture.

 

[dumspirospero]

Really…so I guess crossing your arms and chewing bubble gum is just as good and having your hands clasped in front of you Veils are pious and holding your hands properly in front of you is pious as well…only the progressives will tell you otherwise.

rcn:

See, here’s the thing. People do a lot of things to try to “look” pious. But it just doesn’t work that way. Veils are not pious, and holding one’s hands in an absurdly uncomfortable-looking manner is not more pious than any other posture.

 

[rcn]

Ah, so now you once again put yourself in the position of Lord Arbiter Of What Is Proper. And anyone who doesn’t march in lock-step with you is dismissed as a progressive bubblegum-chewer. How’s the view from up there on the Mount?

The servers in my parish have adopted the hand posture discussed here, and several other things that are supposedly “pious”. It comes off looking very very phony - a contest to see who can bow first and deepest, whose hands are pointed the highest. I wouldn’t care if they held their hands at their sides, if only they would stop trying so obviously to draw attention to themselves.

“Piety” is simply not measured this way.

 

[rcn]

dumspirospero:

Prefect of The CA Congregation for The Doctrine of Faith

And as I’ve said before, I find this “cutesy” comment in your signature to be especially offensive, and I wish you’d do away with it.

 

[dumspirospero]

Sorry you feel that way…I heard a comment once before…“wish in one hand and spit in the other…see which one gets wet first.”

I am sorry, but the way people conduct themselves during mass is a very big deal…it is called reverance. The Lord deserves reverance and respect…nothing less and by simply leaving your hands at your side or by doing some other silly gesture…it lacks reverence and respect. Do you even genuflect in front of the Tabernacle? If so, why do you do it? Do you do it because other people do it? If you don’t care about gestures, etc…then why go through the trouble of kneeling.

rcn:

And as I’ve said before, I find this “cutesy” comment in your signature to be especially offensive, and I wish you’d do away with it.

 

[robertaf]

Wow!!!
At my age, too!
Now I have to practice being holy in front of a mirror.

I thought it had to do with the heart.

Oh well, never too old to learn.

 

[chicago]

Postures are something which I have thought a lot about and experimented with.

I don’t care to argue about what is more pious or appropriate. I think that is somewhat subjective to each individual.

However, I do think that some positions better serve to center oneself and call the body to attention, rest, or what have you.

As an altar boy, I was taught to use the more formal and traditional postures. This included stuff like the “praying hands” posture, one hand on the chest while holding an object (including things like swinging the thurible and presenting cruets), both hands flat on the lap while sitting up straight. (Our training went so far as to things like proper ways of making various bows, how to hold a processional cross or banner, how to hold candles, how to carry a chalice, how to walk along with a priest holding his cope open, how to grasp and place a humeral veil upon his shoulders, wearing gloves to hold a crosier or mitre… you name it, we knew it and did it.) I was one of the only kids to actually stay fully true to the hand postures most of the time, despite peer pressure. At first, it is uncomfortable and seems tedious. But you get used to them. Now as an adult (my serving days long gone, though I can still do all of this stuff in my sleep) I still use these positions regularly.

I find that there is a very real and sensory effect and awareness upon the body, mind, and soul that such postures tends to bring about. Similarly, I believe that the posture which some religious and monks use of both hands at chest level flat (palms inward) with elbows pointing out is a worthwhile one. And when one is standing at a less formal moment, the “at ease” position is very useful.

 

[Mysty101]

robertaf:

Wow!!!
At my age, too!
Now I have to practice being holy in front of a mirror.

I thought it had to do with the heart.

Oh well, never too old to learn.

Hi Berta–I guess I’ll need to get my mirror out, too.

I just never realized we had so many experts on this forum.

BTW nice to see you in the other place.

 

[trailblazer]

Years ago I made it a practice to imitate others who I felt imitated Christ strongly. Once, I observed a very elderly and pious nun at an early daily mass I used to go to pray in such a fashion. She inspired me to adopt this posture. Since then I have noticed outhers. Particularly striking is the picture of Our Lady of Guadeloupe that miraclously appeared; her hands were in this posture. Also, Mother Theresa. If it is good enough for them, its good enough for me!

Unlike Jesus’ day where people made a practice of good appearances for others to think they were holy, this time needs real examples of holiness (not false ones) and respect during sacred Liturgy for the sake of others as well as praising Christ. God bless!

Love & peace,
Bob

 

[netmilsmom]

rcn:

See, here’s the thing. People do a lot of things to try to “look” pious. But it just doesn’t work that way. Veils are not pious, and holding one’s hands in an absurdly uncomfortable-looking manner is not more pious than any other posture.

I’m not trying to look more pious by the way I fold my hands, nor because I cover my head with a chapel cap. Folding one’s hands in this manner is only uncomfortable for you because your muscles are not used to it.
As for covering my head, I do it to honor my “head” my husband. It was suggested by a priest as a sacrifice in hopes that my hubby will convert. 1 Cor 5.
Because of people who just think I am being “uber-Pious”, it is very embarrassing at churches other than my own. That is part of the sacrifice!

 

[trailblazer]

Dear Netmil(name removed by moderator),
Thank you for your sacrifice and courage! You are an inspiration!
Bob
netmil(name removed by moderator):

I’m not trying to look more pious by the way I fold my hands, nor because I cover my head with a chapel cap. Folding one’s hands in this manner is only uncomfortable for you because your muscles are not used to it.
As for covering my head, I do it to honor my “head” my husband. It was suggested by a priest as a sacrifice in hopes that my hubby will convert. 1 Cor 5.
Because of people who just think I am being “uber-Pious”, it is very embarrassing at churches other than my own. That is part of the sacrifice!

 

[netmilsmom]

Dear Netmil(name removed by moderator),
Thank you for your sacrifice and courage! You are an inspiration!
Bob

Oh thank you Bob!
Pray for my hubby, if you would not mind.
He is a good man and with Scott Hahn as a guide, he is looking.

God Bless YOU!

 

[Jamie_Burns]

SnorterLuster:

I assume that is like the sculpture of the praying hands. Is that correct?

Sooner Nation:
Not the praying hands sculpture on Lewis Av. in Tulsa (that has the palms apart).

I actually like that statue at ORU, and when I visit my account on South Lewis, if its prayer time I usually park there for prayers.
There is a big red tailed hawk that likes to perch on the top of the outstretched fingers and scan the area for prey.

 

[Mysty101]

Some private practices do lose some of their value when they are made public.

Mt 6: 5"And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. 6But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

 

[netmilsmom]

robertaf:

As I have understood it, Jesus lifted his hands up to the Father when He prayed, the Apostles did as did the early Christian Church. It is very Biblical.

I have heard several stories about the palms together thing (which by the way, I believe looks pretty silly, but that is only my opinion.) I heard middle age Catholics saw this in the east with Muslims and Buddhists and others and brought it back to the Church. It never had any roots in the Jewish Faith, possibly came out of Paganism. I also read that a group of nuns “borrowed” the practice from Islam to keep childrends hands quiet.

Ever wonder why Priests use the orans position is so pius? Hmmmm???

Do you have references for any of the above?
My Wiccan Nephew-in-law says the Orans position was taken from them.

 

[Mysty101]

Originally Posted by dumspirospero
Prefect of The CA Congregation for The Doctrine of Faith

rcn:

And as I’ve said before, I find this “cutesy” comment in your signature to be especially offensive, and I wish you’d do away with it.

I agree—isn’t this misleading?

 

[surfinpure]

I’ve gotta say, folks, I’m really baffled. It’s not that I agree or disagree with any position thus far, because I’m new to the faith and haven’t had time to study these things in depth. What’s more, I never thought there was anything about hand posture to study in depth! As a convert, I kind of figured what I did with my hands was fine with God as long as the Church didn’t forbid it and my heart was in the right place. Now I’m discovering a whole new ball o’ wax!

 

[Mysty101]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

Do you have references for any of the above?
My Wiccan Nephew-in-law says the Orans position was taken from them.

Nice that you trust your Wiccan over a solid knowledgable Catholic such as Roberta. How about a Catholic authority?

from the Catholic Enc
**

Orans

(Orante) Among the subjects depicted in the art of the Roman catacombs one of those most numerously represented is that of a female figure with extended arms known as the Orans, or one who prays. The custom of praying in antiquity with outstretched, raised arms was common to both Jews and Gentiles

**

 

[netmilsmom]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

Do you have references for any of the above?
My Wiccan Nephew-in-law says the Orans position was taken from them.

This is what I found on a Google Search

The integration of Christian intellectual and religious life into the Roman world can be seen in a number of different ways: their participation in social life, their participation increasingly in public activities, but it can also be seen in some of the smaller and more intimate symbols of Christian identity that one begins to find in the Roman world. Two of the most important artistic symbols that we find are the good shepherd and the orans or the standing figure in the position of prayer that we see so prominently in the catacombs. …[W]hat is very important to recognize is that both of these symbols are actually old pagan symbols that had been around in the Roman world for quite some time, and in fact even within the catacombs it’s very difficult to tell sometimes when one of these paintings is Christian or pagan, so that while we have this figure of the shepherd with the sheep draped over his shoulders or standing dutifully at his feet, we now may tend to think of that as reflecting the gospel stories of Jesus of the lost sheep or Jesus as the good shepherd from the Gospel of John. In point of fact, from Roman perspective, this is the virtue of philanthropy, of love of humanity, and it’s one of the most important virtues of Roman civic and public life. The Christians seem to take it over very readily and apply it to the gospel virtues as well. In the case of the orans figure…, this is the old pagan virtue of piety, of loyalty to the state, and so the person standing with eyes up cast toward heaven and hands in a gesture of appeal to the gods could have been seen by a pagan as a sign of loyalty to the state, loyalty to the old gods. To the Christians it becomes loyalty to the God of Jesus Christ. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/art/line.gif

This is the same argument that I have with this Wiccan. His “Mother” is actually taken from a statue which was a fertility charm used in many societies. While the Wiccans believe that these statues were venerated, far more of them were found in garbage heaps of old societies. They were charms for fertility, not gods.

But those who WANT to find an explaination to their thinking, will.

 

[msproule]

Mysty101:

Some private practices do lose some of their value when they are made public.

True, but to whom was this comment and accompanying Scripture passage addressed? You were unclear in this regard.

Despite not being specified in the title, the context of this thread is prayer during Mass.

Mass is public prayer, is it not?