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Pariah_Pirana
Guest
It’s primarliy a sacrifice – of God the Son to God the Father. The “sacred meal” aspect is secondary…
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GregoryPalamas
Guest
netmil(name removed by moderator):
Dan L
I see the your point. Yet, why fight over it as some are doing? I guess as long as the RCs don’t try to dictate our devotion we should not try to dictate theirs. It does seem a shame that something so lovely should become a point fought over.
Dan L
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netmilsmom
Guest
Oh no!
It was in response to this…
"Originally Posted by robertaf
I have heard several stories about the palms together thing (which by the way, I believe looks pretty silly, but that is only my opinion.) I heard middle age Catholics saw this in the east with Muslims and Buddhists and others and brought it back to the Church. It never had any roots in the Jewish Faith, possibly came out of Paganism. I also read that a group of nuns “borrowed” the practice from Islam to keep childrends hands quiet. "
Also with no reference.
Which is why I put in all the references from PBS.
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robertaf
Guest
Greetings
I doubt if any post here is going to change a single mind. There are some really strong feelings here.
I would be real interested in the ages of the folks here and how many who like the Pre Vatican II practices was, at least the age of reason, before Vatican II.
I have to admit I cannot provide sources for some of the things I posted in regard to to the palm to palm position. I started my own studies in the late 1960s to become accredited to teach Religious Education and Church History. Too many of my sources are long forgotten. Many things were from teachings in courses I have taken.
I am so very grateful that Holy Mother Church is Big enough to embrace all of us. We tend to judge every Catholic by what we see in our own Diocese or Parish but we truly are Universal.
My husband is 75 yrs old, an Italian cradle Catholic. He was just reading over my shoulder. In his ever so sweet way, he cut right to the chase.
He said,
“I wonder when Jesus looks down at us and sees two people, one with hands folded saying Jesus, I love you and one with hands lifted saying Jesus, I love you, both are at Mass and preparing to receive Him in the Holy Eucharist, will he reject one of these folks or see both expressing their love to Him.”
He made me realize we do a lot of fussing over what we like or don’t like and it is our prayer, our relationship and sincerity in our Love for the Lord that is most important.
Frankly, at my age, after going through a life threatening illness (lung cancer) I have learned not to “sweat the small stuff”.
The greatest Gift from the Holy Spirit is Love. “Love one another”, is one of the Great Commands. And we are told that they would know we are Christians by how we Love one another.
I can quote the source of this, The Holy Bible.
I doubt if any post here is going to change a single mind. There are some really strong feelings here.
I would be real interested in the ages of the folks here and how many who like the Pre Vatican II practices was, at least the age of reason, before Vatican II.
I have to admit I cannot provide sources for some of the things I posted in regard to to the palm to palm position. I started my own studies in the late 1960s to become accredited to teach Religious Education and Church History. Too many of my sources are long forgotten. Many things were from teachings in courses I have taken.
I am so very grateful that Holy Mother Church is Big enough to embrace all of us. We tend to judge every Catholic by what we see in our own Diocese or Parish but we truly are Universal.
My husband is 75 yrs old, an Italian cradle Catholic. He was just reading over my shoulder. In his ever so sweet way, he cut right to the chase.
He said,
“I wonder when Jesus looks down at us and sees two people, one with hands folded saying Jesus, I love you and one with hands lifted saying Jesus, I love you, both are at Mass and preparing to receive Him in the Holy Eucharist, will he reject one of these folks or see both expressing their love to Him.”
He made me realize we do a lot of fussing over what we like or don’t like and it is our prayer, our relationship and sincerity in our Love for the Lord that is most important.
Frankly, at my age, after going through a life threatening illness (lung cancer) I have learned not to “sweat the small stuff”.
The greatest Gift from the Holy Spirit is Love. “Love one another”, is one of the Great Commands. And we are told that they would know we are Christians by how we Love one another.
I can quote the source of this, The Holy Bible.
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GregoryPalamas
Guest
robertaf,
I believe you and your husband are precisely correct. Let us love one another and appreciate the devotion to God that we share.
Dan L
I believe you and your husband are precisely correct. Let us love one another and appreciate the devotion to God that we share.
Dan L
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tom.wineman
Guest
Then things could get out of hand .home.att.net/~tom.wineman/givemeahand.jpg
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robertaf
Guest
Greetings Church
A friend just reminded me of a scripture I hadn’t thought about for quite sometime. I try to post prayerfully in these forums but I think there are times when I really need to slow down and listen to what the Lord has taught us. May I share?
2 Timothy 2
23 Don’t have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. 24 And the Lord’s servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful.
It goes on but this is the part I need to remember for me.
A friend just reminded me of a scripture I hadn’t thought about for quite sometime. I try to post prayerfully in these forums but I think there are times when I really need to slow down and listen to what the Lord has taught us. May I share?
2 Timothy 2
23 Don’t have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. 24 And the Lord’s servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful.
It goes on but this is the part I need to remember for me.
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msproule
Guest
Thanks for the advice. I am sure your comments are sincere and not intended to be as sarcastic as they read. Luckily, I do understand what is written in this Scripture passage.
The fact remains that it was once again taken out of context and used to wrongfully accuse another poster. One might speculate that this had a minor role in the eventual suspension of the one to whom I addressed my question.
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Mysty101
Guest
But one should not speculate about the actions of moderators especially those of which one has no knowledge.
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otm
Guest
It would appear that you do not understand the sequencing of the laws concerning the rubrics of the Mass. The note to which you refer is a note concerning rubrics dated 1975; the GIRM is dated 2003 and is the ruling document. The issue of holding hands has been around longer than 1975, and if Rome wished to make a specific ruling on it, they would have done so. In law, silence on a known issue which one would expect to be ruled on is the effective statement that no ruling is being made. Therefore, it is not a prohibited act, as they had the opportunity and the knowledge about the matter and chose not to rule. It is simply a non-regulated act, as Archbishop Chaput has stated.
Therefore, your statement that it is a sin is incorrect.
It is not required that you hold hands. It is not required that you refuse to hold hands. But if there is any sin, it is the sin against charity if one rudely forces another to hold hands, or if one rudely refuses to hold hands. Note, the operative term is rudely.
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otm
Guest
Pariah Pirana:
I don’t disagree with you; however, there are those who would make secondary a de minimis issue, and it most definitely is not de minimis.
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Angels_Watchin
Guest
Pariah Pirana:
The Eucharist is the only human way to truly and physically ‘receive’ the sacrifice of Jesus. We are included in the ‘event’ physically.
Our receiving the Eucharist is an ‘element’ of the sacrifice.
It’s a 3 way thing: God the Father, Jesus and us. Not an ‘additional’ part or a ‘separate’ part.
Does this make any sense to anybody?
I think it’s another sacred ‘3’.
Comments?
Angel
Just a thought here…
The Eucharist is the only human way to truly and physically ‘receive’ the sacrifice of Jesus. We are included in the ‘event’ physically.
Our receiving the Eucharist is an ‘element’ of the sacrifice.
It’s a 3 way thing: God the Father, Jesus and us. Not an ‘additional’ part or a ‘separate’ part.
Does this make any sense to anybody?
I think it’s another sacred ‘3’.
Comments?
Angel
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Purificator
Guest
Angels Watchin:
Holy Communion is a product of the re-presentation of the sacrifice of God the Son to His Father for propitiation of our sins. While we are required to attend the Mass every Sunday and then some, we are only required to receive Holy Communion on a yearly basis.
Please also don’t forget the third Person of the Holy Trinity – the Holy Spirit who also plays an important part in the sacrifice…
The Mass (and the Eastern liturgies) are the means in which man enters into a sacramental relationship with God – the most intimate form of a “personal realtionship” man can have with God.
Holy Communion is a product of the re-presentation of the sacrifice of God the Son to His Father for propitiation of our sins. While we are required to attend the Mass every Sunday and then some, we are only required to receive Holy Communion on a yearly basis.
Please also don’t forget the third Person of the Holy Trinity – the Holy Spirit who also plays an important part in the sacrifice…
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otm
Guest
However, it has been the exhortation of the Church (and we can certainly see this in Pius X’s moves against Jansenism) that people receive frequently; it is further seen in the reduction of the fast from Midnight down to three hours before Communion, and then a further reduction to 1 hour before Communion.
I believe that the requirement to receive at least once a year is a response to Jansenism and its subsequent permutations. The rule that we receive at least once would sound loudly in a Jansenist attitude were it reversed to say that we only have to receive once… and would belie an attitude of distinct minimalism, not something that Christ taught at all.
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allhers
Guest
As to the hands posture, I was taught by my parents and by the Sisters and Priests to hold my hands in prayer like the praying hands statue, not the orans position. Actually, I believe I read on either the Vatican web site www.vatican.va or the EWTN web site, www.ewtn.com that the Priest only is to hold his hands in the orans position. I read it years ago, and wasn’t looking for it when I ran across it, that is why I don’t remember for sure.Also, an earlier poster said “since when is EWTN the Vatican.” It never has been, nor does it pretend to be, however, they are faithful to the Church and do have many things on their site in keeping with the Vatican web site. EWTN would not mislead anyone.
I never really ever even thought about the postion of my hands as I have never left the Church, I have always prayed with my eyes closed and my hands folded in prayer (the praying hands position), and my head bowed during the Our Father and do not have any idea if people are reaching for me or not, I haven’t done it to be “pious” or “holy”, I have done it because I was taught to, and I never stopped doing it. As someone else said earlier, it is a matter of reverence. Keep in mind who you are praying to.
If it bothers some that I am praying the Our Father this way, then perhaps, they ought to say their Our Father for me, and pay particular attention to the part that prays…forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those…
Once, when I went into the Adoration chapel, their was a lady there, kneeling in prayer right in front of Jesus with her hands in the orans position, it was the most beautiful thing I believe I have ever witnessed, I thought and felt that this woman was truly praising Him, worshipping Him, totally in love with Him and not even aware of my presence. That is as it should be.
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Mysty101
Guest
Hi,
I guess you haven’t read all these threads. Some are closed, and one was totally deleted.
This whole circus came about because some ridiculed those using the orans posture. I personally think any legitimate prayer posture is fine, if we are not instructed with official liturgical norms to use a specific posture, but it is wrong to ridicule anyone, even if they were wrong.
I doubt I would have even entered any of these discussions if they were just a respectful exchange of interpretations, but there was faulty documentation and ridicule, so I felt I did need to let those reading know that all Catholics not think that ridiculing is a good way to attempt to change anything.
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MrS
Guest
extremely good analysis on the Orans Position… Dr Peters strikes again http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon14.gif
catholicexchange.com/vm/index.asp?vm_id=2&art_id=28525&sec_id=#section54823
catholicexchange.com/vm/index.asp?vm_id=2&art_id=28525&sec_id=#section54823
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allhers
Guest
I believe that ridicule would not help anyone either.As a matter of fact, if anyone were to ridicule me, I believe that that would make me NOT change, no matter what! (not that I have never been ridiculed before, but I suppose that would be a totally different topic altogether)
I read the site on Catholic exchange that Mr. S posted, that was really good. Thanks for the site.
Keep up the good work in here, for those that do
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netmilsmom
Guest
allhers said:
As a matter of fact, if anyone were to ridicule me, I believe that that would make me NOT change, no matter what! (not that I have never been ridiculed before, but I suppose that would be a totally different topic altogether)
I read the site on Catholic exchange that Mr. S posted, that was really good. Thanks for the site.
Keep up the good work in here, for those that do
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netmilsmom
Guest
allhers said:
As a matter of fact, if anyone were to ridicule me, I believe that that would make me NOT change, no matter what! (not that I have never been ridiculed before, but I suppose that would be a totally different topic altogether)
I read the site on Catholic exchange that Mr. S posted, that was really good. Thanks for the site.
Keep up the good work in here, for those that do
Please understand, before you think that the posters here are horrible people, the progression of the “ridicule”.
Questions were asked about “what is” or “why do people do” the orans posture or holding hands for the Our Father. People came in stating that it looked silly or describing it in different ways. (like holding hands out front was compared to catching a football). We as humans, when asked, will compare to something that all of us relate to.
A couple of posters took it personally (one in particular is now on my ignore list because of stalking). A few of those people began Personal name calling.
It was one giant fight where people took things personally and would not listen to the other side.
Please don’t think that the posters here are intentionally mean. If someone does get personal, they are suspended. Most of us will back up with facts, but personal name calling is not allowed.
I’m sure that this post will get some personal answers, but there is no reason that you should be given the idea that we are a horrible group of people. We are not.
Welcome to CA!!!
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