Happy 40th Birthday Novus Ordo

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ncjohn said:
And if you had started with this premise, that “in my opinion…” rather than repeatedly stating it to be objective fact both in this and other threads, I don’t think anyone here would even be discussing this. You are certainly entitled to your opinion and preference. And you are entitled to express your reasons for that opionion. It is the continual lapses into ridicule and attack, which you don’t even seem to be able to recognize to be such, that cause some of us to become defensive.

I fully support your desired preference and would be perfectly happy if you could just acknowledge that we can legitimately be just as enthralled in the OF Mass as you are in the EF Mass. You may not understand why, and may not be able to have the experience yourself, but it doesn’t make it substandard or somehow wrong.

Peace,
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Come on John, it is more reverent. I am tired of all these weak arguments otherwise. You can like the Novus Ordo all you want, maybe you like a liturgy not as reverent as the TLM, but please don’t continue asserting they are the same. I’m not attacking anyone, just pointing out the obvious.
 
Although I don’t like the use of “superior” in this piece, it gives a nice summary of the inherent differences between the two forms.

verbum1.blogspot.com/2008/08/why-tlm-is-extrinsically-superior-to.html

Consider this: genuflecting is more reverent then bowing. Making a sign of reverence is more reverent then not making it. What is the number count between the two forms in terms of genuflecting, bowing, and omitting any sign of reverence?

If you find the Novus Ordo spiritually fulfilling and you are practicing the Catholic faith as best you can then great. However, to suggest there is no difference in reverence between the two forms is absurd.

The only two abuses I’ve seen or heard of in the TLM is the express Mass and an intoxicated priest. I guess the Novus Ordo is too difficult to say drunk so there at least is one redeeming featue. Even VZ71 admits the NO is prone to abuse. The structure of this form makes it easy for abuse, customization, and a lack in reverence.
 
rein_me_in_Lord said:
Am I wrong? Is it routine to hear from an NO pulpit preaching against homosexuality, abortion (although that does get a little lip service, thank God), sex outside of marriage, divorcing your mate and then obtaining an annulment so that you can marry that certain exciting someone who has come into your life and still “legitimately” receive sacraments, gluttony, pride, sloth, etc.—in short, preaching against MORTAL SINS? And is it also routinely heard from NO pulpits that one must make a rigorous examination of conscience and then go to confession if one is to worthily receive the Body and Blood of Our Blessed Lord, because to do otherwise is to commit mortal sin? Is it routine to hear from an NO pulpit all (or any) of these de fide teachings of Holy Mother Church? Is there a single NO parish in the U.S. where such preaching is heard on a routine basis?
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Yes, it is, if by routine you mean when the Scripture is on the topic. I have heard all of these preached.
 
Ockham said:
Come on John, it is more reverent. I am tired of all these weak arguments otherwise.
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Weak arguements? Weaker than, “it is more reverent”? The best arguement for the Mass form is that it is what the Church gives us. We are the pupils. She is the teacher. It is a strong arguement for the humble spirit.
 
Ockham said:
The only two abuses I’ve seen or heard of in the TLM is the express Mass and an intoxicated priest.
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It is the character of the priest that leads to abuse. I do no know what makes anyone think that the same priests that break the rules now would suddenly tow the line if required to celebrate the TLM. It is to be expected that those who celebrate the TLM would be the type to never break any rules, regardless of the Mass form.

It is the character of the celebrant, not the nature of the Mass that results in abuse.
 
Ockham said:
Come on John, it is more reverent. I am tired of all these weak arguments otherwise. You can like the Novus Ordo all you want, maybe you like a liturgy not as reverent as the TLM, but please don’t continue asserting they are the same. I’m not attacking anyone, just pointing out the obvious.
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I will continue to say that it is dependent on the parish, the priest, and what the bishop of the diocese allows. Neither is inherently more reverent. It’s not a matter of “weak arguments”. We are talking about a subjective preference and there are no objective arguments that overcome subjective choices in such matters. It’s really no different than my absolutely detesting okra and not understanding how anyone can even put it in their mouth. The fact is though that some people like okra and they don’t need to give me “logical” arguments why they do.

Further I have personally never attended an OF Mass that was LESS reverent than the TLM’s I grew up with. That may not be your experience and I certainly don’t claim mine to be universal. Certainly today’s TLM’s are unlikely to look like the ones I endured. But neither is my experience isolated. What you consider to be obvious is obvious only to one with a strong bias toward the TLM. One with a strong preference for the OF can find it just as reverent as any TLM around. Whatever your beliefs that the “typical” OF Mass is riddled with abuses, many of us have just not found that to be so.

Clearly there must be places more prone to that than others but it hasn’t been the case in the dozen or so parishes, spread over three states, that I have belonged to, nor to any of the other dozens of churches I have attended across this country and in many European countries. I certainly don’t have any kind of global sampling to go by but I do have a pretty extensive sampling without the kinds of things that are actually abuses.

I truly do wish you well with being able to attend the EF liturgy to your heart’s desire. You clearly would not feel comfortable at this point in even the most reverent OF one. I’ll happily stay where I am though I would still love to experience another Missa Cantata. I only attended one during my growing up years and it was quite frankly my only experience of the TLM where I actually felt like I was part of the Church.

Peace to you,
 
John, you must have endured some horribly said TLMs to say you’ve never seen one NO less reverent. I attend both forms of the Mass and obviously find the EF more spiritually fulfilling. As I said earlier, it is a better represenatitve of the Catholic faith based on the prayers, gestures, traditions, and structure. Again, your preference is your business, but put the two forms side by side, take out individual priests, past experiences, and all other variable one is clearly more reverent then the other. This isn’t to say superior as so many NO defenders are quick to protest. I also realize the TLMs I attend are said by and attended by very reverent people. However, the structures of the two forms are different as is their inherent sense of reverence.
 
ncjohn wrote (of the TLM):
“…I would still love to experience another Missa Cantata. I only attended one during my growing up years and it was quite frankly my only experience of the TLM where I actually felt like I was part of the Church.”

I see.
 
The Lavabo-

Novus Ordo:

[Then the celebrant washes his hands, saying quietly:]

P: Lord, wash away my iniquity; me from my sin.

TLM:

[Going to the Epistle side, the priest washes his fingers and says:]

P: I will wash my hands among the innocent, and will cleanse compass Thine altar, O Lord. That I may hear the voice of praise, and tell of all Thy wondrous works. I have loved, O Lord, the beauty of Thy house, and the place where Thy glory dwelleth. Take not away my soul, O God, with the wicked; nor my life with men of blood. In whose hands are iniquities: their right hand is filled with gifts. But as for me, I have walked in my innocence; redeem me, and have mercy on me. My foot hath stood in the right way; in the churches I will bless Thee, O Lord. Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost. As it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be; world without end. Amen.

[The priest returns to the middle of the altar and bowing slightly, says:]

P: Receive, O holy Trinity, this oblation offered up by us to Thee in memory of the passion, resurrection, and ascension of Our Lord Jesus Christ, and in honor of blessed Mary, ever a virgin, of blessed John the Baptist, of the holy apostles Peter and Paul, of these, and of all the saints, that it may be available to their honor and to our salvation; and may they whose memory we celebrate on earth vouchsafe to intercede for us in heaven. Through the same Christ our Lord. Amen

verbum1.blogspot.com/2008/08/why-tlm-is-extrinsically-superior-to.html
 
Ockham said:
The Lavabo-

Novus Ordo:

[Then the celebrant washes his hands, saying quietly:]

P: Lord, wash away my iniquity; me from my sin.

TLM:

[Going to the Epistle side, the priest washes his fingers and says:]

P: I will wash my hands among the innocent, and will cleanse compass Thine altar, O Lord. That I may hear the voice of praise, and tell of all Thy wondrous works. I have loved, O Lord, the beauty of Thy house, and the place where Thy glory dwelleth. Take not away my soul, O God, with the wicked; nor my life with men of blood. In whose hands are iniquities: their right hand is filled with gifts. But as for me, I have walked in my innocence; redeem me, and have mercy on me. My foot hath stood in the right way; in the churches I will bless Thee, O Lord. Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost. As it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be; world without end. Amen.

[The priest returns to the middle of the altar and bowing slightly, says:]

P: Receive, O holy Trinity, this oblation offered up by us to Thee in memory of the passion, resurrection, and ascension of Our Lord Jesus Christ, and in honor of blessed Mary, ever a virgin, of blessed John the Baptist, of the holy apostles Peter and Paul, of these, and of all the saints, that it may be available to their honor and to our salvation; and may they whose memory we celebrate on earth vouchsafe to intercede for us in heaven. Through the same Christ our Lord. Amen

verbum1.blogspot.com/2008/08/why-tlm-is-extrinsically-superior-to.html
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God-centered.
 
rev⋅er⋅ence  /ˈrɛvərəns, ˈrɛvrəns/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [rev-er-uhns, rev-ruhns] Show IPA noun, verb, -enced, -enc⋅ing.
Use reverence in a Sentence
See web results for reverence
See images of reverence
–noun 1. a feeling or attitude of deep respect tinged with awe; veneration.
2. the outward manifestation of this feeling: to pay reverence.
3. a gesture indicative of deep respect; an obeisance, bow, or curtsy.
4. the state of being revered.
5. (initial capital letter) a title used in addressing or mentioning a member of the clergy (usually prec. by your or his).

–verb (used with object) 6. to regard or treat with reverence; venerate: One should reverence God and His laws.
Origin:
1250–1300; ME < L reverentia respect, fear, awe. See revere 1 , -ence

dictionary.reference.com/browse/reverence
 
Ockham said:
rev⋅er⋅ence  /ˈrɛvərəns, ˈrɛvrəns/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [rev-er-uhns, rev-ruhns] Show IPA noun, verb, -enced, -enc⋅ing.
Use reverence in a Sentence
See web results for reverence
See images of reverence
–noun 1. a feeling or attitude of deep respect tinged with awe; veneration.
2. the outward manifestation of this feeling: to pay reverence.
3. a gesture indicative of deep respect; an obeisance, bow, or curtsy.
4. the state of being revered.
5. (initial capital letter) a title used in addressing or mentioning a member of the clergy (usually prec. by your or his).

–verb (used with object) 6. to regard or treat with reverence; venerate: One should reverence God and His laws.
Origin:
1250–1300; ME < L reverentia respect, fear, awe. See revere 1 , -ence

dictionary.reference.com/browse/reverence
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Yup, those are the descriptions I would use for the Masses I attend, especially #1. While I have my “off” days like anyone else, I seldom leave Mass without that sense of complete awe. 🙂
 
ncjohn said:
Yup, those are the descriptions I would use for the Masses I attend, especially #1. While I have my “off” days like anyone else, I seldom leave Mass without that sense of complete awe. 🙂
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Ditto.
 
I’m glad for you both. Yet as the differences in the lavabo proves, one form has more substance than the other. More substance, more outward manifestation of respect necessarily leads to more reverence - by definition.
 
Is this a joke. The new mass is a disaster. Yes English would be cool but all the other inovations have been a car wreck.
 
Ockham said:
I’m glad for you both. Yet as the differences in the lavabo proves, one form has more substance than the other. More substance, more outward manifestation of respect necessarily leads to more reverence - by definition.
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Ockham, do you honestly believe that your opinion on anything is the “end all” of a conversation? I’ll clue you in to something Pope Benedict XVI himself said, and that is that both the EF and the OF are two expressions of the same rite. Your infantile attempt to “define” that “More substance, more outward manifestation of respect necessarily leads to more reverence” is laughable.
 
agent_grey said:
Is this a joke. The new mass is a disaster. Yes English would be cool but all the other inovations have been a car wreck.
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Well, there it is. With such knowledge and power of persuasion we can call this thread “closed.”:rolleyes:
 
Timothysis said:
Ockham, do you honestly believe that your opinion on anything is the “end all” of a conversation? I’ll clue you in to something Pope Benedict XVI himself said, and that is that both the EF and the OF are two expressions of the same rite. Your infantile attempt to “define” that “More substance, more outward manifestation of respect necessarily leads to more reverence” is laughable.
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Infantile?

Here come the insults. Must be getting close to a nerve again.

I’ve never said the OF and EF weren’t of the same rite. One is more reverent than the other as the lavabo example proves.
 
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