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FCEGM
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Much in the same manner as He allowed Judas’ betrayal in the formation of His Church.
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2nd_Adam
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I have to post that both Pope Benedict and I disagree with your statement. Happy Reformation Day, or Happy Halloween.
“The wall is no longer necessary; our common identity within the diversity of cultures is Christ, and it is he who makes us just. Being just simply means being with Christ and in Christ. And this suffices. Further observances are no longer necessary. For this reason Luther’s phrase: “faith alone” is true, if it is not opposed to faith in charity, in love. Faith is looking at Christ, entrusting oneself to Christ, being united to Christ, conformed to Christ, to his life. And the form, the life of Christ, is love; hence to believe is to conform to Christ and to enter into his love. So it is that in the Letter to the Galatians in which he primarily developed his teaching on justification St Paul speaks of faith that works through love (cf. Gal 5: 14).” - Your Pope
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FCEGM
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My Pope says nothing here about the rightness of Luther’s revolt and it being a cause for celebration.
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2nd_Adam
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If you study the links on my signature, the Pope and the professor speaks positive things about Martin Luther,… way more than your typical Catholic. Please try to pray and study the links. Martin Luther is not your enemy, nor am I.My Pope says nothing here about the rightness of Luther’s revolt and it being a cause for celebration.
And it is up for debate which Church that is, even if you exclude Protestants
I hadn’t thought about the sex scandal, but the others seem more internal events. But what you mention here sounds interesting. I take it you don’t care for Novus ordo.
One wonders what could have been, had both sides listened more to the Holy Spirit.
Seems to me, we’re told we must love the Lord with all our heart, mind, and soul, and our neighbors as ourselves. If we reject Grace, we will our souls to be lost.
Jon
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James1982
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In honor of Reformation day this year I’m reading through some historical accounts of the reformation and counter-reformation years. (If anyone wants to recommend a book to me, I would greatly appreciate it)
What strikes me most about the Augsburg Confession is that, at least as some accounts relate it, it appears to have been written as a compromise document. That is, in an attempt for reunion of the church.
It also amazes me how out of sync both sides were over those years, how when one side was ready to come to the table, the other usually for whatever reason was not. There are several occasions where, if the side with the upper hand at the time had extended a hand in charity, there may have been reconciliation.
I am also struck by the notion that it would have been relatively easy for the Catholic Church to get the Lutherans back on board in those early years, marginalizing the much more radical elements coming out of places like Zurich. In fact, at several points, Martin Luther was caught backpedaling toward orthodoxy - on the real presence and infant baptism to name a couple.
Anyway, part of me thinks the moment when adopting the Augsburg Confession would succeed in bringing any more than a small portion of Lutherans on board passed a long time ago. Those of us stragglers that are already Romophiles might come back home, but can anyone say it would bring any major Lutheran synod with it? Maybe a few old-world European Churches, but certainly no major American synod.
No, were I Catholic, I’d just wait the protestants out. It’s gone 500 years, it can go a bit longer until we see where exactly American Lutheranism is headed.
I enjoyed reading your perspective. Much makes sense.
Romophiles.
I like that. Guess there’s too many Romophobes, however. 
Jon
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James1982
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I was wondering if anyone was going to call me on my creative abuse of the english language. Guess so.I enjoyed reading your perspective. Much makes sense.
Romophiles.
Jon
Yes, lots of Romophobes. Too many people with vested interests in separation these days… on both sides.
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gcnuss
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After being away for a few days, I’m just getting caught up on my CA Forum reading and find this thread particularly fascinating.
I appreciate the OP’s wish of a “Happy Reformation Day.” I will celebrate it because it is through the Lutheran tradition in which I was raised that I came to know and love God - the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. I will celebrate it because it is through that tradition that I have come to know that God loves me despite all of my imperfections – a love so strong that he sent his son for the salvation of the world, me included.
What I will not celebrate is continuing division among Christians. I will not celebrate the fact that we do not join together in receiving the body and blood of our Lord before the altar. I will not celebrate in the old “Lutherans are right - Catholics are wrong” style which I remember from my early years.
My prayer on this coming Reformation Day will be that the Holy Spirit will, in whatever time God chooses, to bring us together as one.
I appreciate the OP’s wish of a “Happy Reformation Day.” I will celebrate it because it is through the Lutheran tradition in which I was raised that I came to know and love God - the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. I will celebrate it because it is through that tradition that I have come to know that God loves me despite all of my imperfections – a love so strong that he sent his son for the salvation of the world, me included.
What I will not celebrate is continuing division among Christians. I will not celebrate the fact that we do not join together in receiving the body and blood of our Lord before the altar. I will not celebrate in the old “Lutherans are right - Catholics are wrong” style which I remember from my early years.
My prayer on this coming Reformation Day will be that the Holy Spirit will, in whatever time God chooses, to bring us together as one.
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Rites
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As a Catholic I am forced to disagree with that.
All abuses are internal events until they lead to formal heresy or schism. And you are right, I do not care for the Novus Ordo Mass. I view the outright suppression of the Old Mass as one of the worst Church abuses in recent history.
Indeed. At least we can still hope for the future though.
Well heresy, I think, very much entails a rejection of grace.
No surpirse there. One of our Orthodox friends would probably say the same about his Church.Absolutely, and pray too.
Well, perhaps true, or not. You and I may disagree on what is heresy. I don’t doubt, however, His grace is extended to you, even if I think your communion mixes Truth with error.
Jon
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humble_maid
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As a catholic what you say is very reassuring and comforting to me. However, I feel such sadness when I think that we are all christians yet we are so divided. I pray that His love will be strong enough in men to inspire them towards reconciliation.
The eucharist is the central part of the church’s rites and its teaching. It is very important to us; many of our brothers in Christ have deviated from this ‘sharing’ and gave it up all together or say that it is only symbolic. The gospels show the importance of this ‘sharing’ ritual instituted by Christ Himself.
**John 6:54 **Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen, I say unto you: except you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you.
God Bless you all.
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2nd_Adam
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Here is a good reason for Catholics to celebrate Reformation Day!
“As soon as a coin in the coffer rings, a soul from purgatory shall spring.” - A Catholic Christian
“As soon as a coin in the coffer rings, a soul from purgatory shall spring.” - A Catholic Christian
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2nd_Adam
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On October 31st, 1517, Martin Luther, an Augustinian monk, nailed his 95 theses on the castle church door in Wittenburg, protesting the sale of indulgences by the Roman Catholic church. Luther eventually went to trial for heresy at the Diet of Worms where he was asked to repent of his teachings upon penalty of excommunication. His teachings opposed many accepted doctrines and practices of the church. He also challenged the authority and infallibility of the Pope. Luther refused to recant, famously stating:
Your Imperial Majesty and Your Lordships demand a simple answer. Here it is, plain and unvarnished. Unless I am convicted of error by the testimony of Scripture or since I put no trust in the unsupported authority of Pope or councils, since it is plain that they have often erred and often contradicted themselves by manifest reasoning, I stand convicted by the Scriptures to which I have appealed, and my conscience is taken captive by God’s word, I cannot and will not recant anything, for to act against our conscience is neither safe for us, nor open to us.
On this I take my stand. I can do no other. God help me.
Amen.
What would you like to discuss about Reformation Day?
Your Imperial Majesty and Your Lordships demand a simple answer. Here it is, plain and unvarnished. Unless I am convicted of error by the testimony of Scripture or since I put no trust in the unsupported authority of Pope or councils, since it is plain that they have often erred and often contradicted themselves by manifest reasoning, I stand convicted by the Scriptures to which I have appealed, and my conscience is taken captive by God’s word, I cannot and will not recant anything, for to act against our conscience is neither safe for us, nor open to us.
On this I take my stand. I can do no other. God help me.
Amen.
What would you like to discuss about Reformation Day?
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pnewton
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No one is suggesting celebrating this holiday, only that we extend a hand of friendship to others who wish to our neighbors. I also wish Jewish people and Muslims I know all the best on the holidays the celebrate. It is a statement of courtesy, not theology.
Thank you Adam from bringing the sanity and wisdom of Peter Kreeft into this discussion. No, he does not trump any Council, but it is scarcely necessary to do so. They speak of different things. Yes, faith alone when it is not alone is an acceptable idea if the word “alone” has a different meaning.
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2nd_Adam
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Peter Kreeft was part of ECT. What do you think about the future of ECT, or an ECT 3?
seekgod.ca/ect.htm
**Evangelicals and Catholics Together **
Charles Colson and Fr. Richard John Neuhaus (Lutheran who converted to Catholicism) authored the ecumenical documents Evangelicals and Catholics Together and Evangelicals and Catholics Together II. The approval for the wording was required to come from Cardinal Edward Idris Cassidy, president of the Vatican’s Pontifical Council for promoting Christian Unity.
Besides the authors, Charles Colson and Fr. Richard John Neuhaus, the original document was signed in 1994 by:
**Professor Peter Kreeft (Roman Catholic); **
Rev. Matthew Lamb (Roman Catholic);
Dr. Richard Land # ( Southern Baptist); See: ICES
Dr. Larry Lewis # (Southern Baptist);
Mr. Ralph Martin ( Roman Catholic); See: CNP’s Robert Weiner & Maranatha; Shepherding Movement Connections; General Council Meeting of the Ft. Lauderdale Elders
Dr. Jesse Miranda (Assemblies of God, PK);
Dr. Richard Mouw (Fuller Seminary); Topic: Organizational Paths
Msgr. William Murphy (Roman Catholic);
Rev. Richard Neuhaus (Roman Catholic);
Dr. Mark Noll (Wheaton College);
Mr. Michael Novak; See: CNP Joint Projects : A-D; CNP’s Alan P. Dye, Alan Keyes
Mr. Brian O’Connell (World Evangelical Fellowship);
John Cardinal O’Connor (Roman Catholic);
Dr. Thomas Oden (Methodist);
Professor J.I. Packer (Anglican); See: Institute for Global Engagement & Eastern College; Jay Grimstead
The Rev. Pat Robertson; (PK) See: CNP’s Dr. “M.G.” Pat Robertson
Dr. John Rodgers (Episcopalian);
Mr. Herbert Schossberg; See: CNP’s Howard Ahmanson, Jr
Bishop Carlos Sevilla, S.J. (Roman Catholic);
Archbishop Francis Stafford (Roman Catholic);
Mr. George Weigel; CNP Joint Projects : E-J
Dr. John White #.
(# --Have since removed their names)
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2nd_Adam
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benidict
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God used martin luther to correct the Church? how? by bringing in writings and ideas that caused social and religious upheavel. that brought in antisemitic teachings that were used to by hitler to kill 6 million jews? God used martin luther? or was it teachings that caused all this confusion and opinions of man that has given us soooo many denominations. this is the movement you wish to celebrate? if so, leave me out of it.
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2nd_Adam
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It’s a matter of what glasses we have on. It seems a particular orthodox Catholic on this site believed that Pope Leo was a wolf. Therefore, I say Happy Reformation to that Catholic with that view. Please check out post 955 on this thread.God used martin luther to correct the Church? how? by bringing in writings and ideas that caused social and religious upheavel. that brought in antisemitic teachings that were used to by hitler to kill 6 million jews? God used martin luther? or was it teachings that caused all this confusion and opinions of man that has given us soooo many denominations. this is the movement you wish to celebrate? if so, leave me out of it.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=388195&page=64
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benidict
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lenses have very little to do with it. so do you agree with luthers antisemitic views? i didnt get these from any Catholic publications. these are from jewish publications. so the glasses i have on have little to do with hisrorical facts. and they are, the upheavel death and destruction, and confusion that martin luthers teachings have brought. again, i see no reason to celebrate such a tragic movement.
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