Happy Reformation Day to my seperated brothers and sisters!

[2nd_Adam]

lenses have very little to do with it. so do you agree with luthers antisemitic views? i didnt get these from any Catholic publications. these are from jewish publications. so the glasses i have on have little to do with hisrorical facts. and they are, the upheavel death and destruction, and confusion that martin luthers teachings have brought. again, i see no reason to celebrate such a tragic movement.

What do you think about the Catholic who posted that Pope Leo was a wolf?

 

[benidict]

What do you think about the Catholic who posted that Pope Leo was a wolf?

i dont know where this catholic is coming from. what do you think of bon den juden und ihren lugen( on the jews and their lies) or vonschem hamphoras und vom geschlect christi( of the unknowable names and the gerations of Christ) both penned by luther 3 years before he died. all due to an almost fatal bout of diareahh caused by eating kosher foods. as far as this catholic is concerned, that is between them and their priest. but we are discussing luther are we not? its a yes or no question. do you agree with luthers antisemitc writings that he wrote shortly before his death. why celebrate a movement that brought about such horrid teachings? i will however use this day to contemplate how 1 mans error, could reek such havoc upon humanity, and pray that such as he, never be found on the earth again. any of my jewish Brothers or Sisters wish to comment?

 

[Lutheranteach]

My Pope says nothing here about the rightness of Luther’s revolt and it being a cause for celebration.

Pope Leo X and a myriad of other popes, cardinals and bishops also bear some responsibility for those events.

 

[benidict]

Pope Leo X and a myriad of other popes, cardinals and bishops also bear some responsibility for those events.

hi lutheranreach, educate me please what responsibilty did pope leo x and others bear? think i know where you are coming from, just want some clarification for those who may not. appreciate it, thanks

 

[LilyM]

Actually the Reformation wasn’t all bad for members of the Roman church. If it wasn’t for that blasted heretic Luther and the Counter-Reformation (aka Catholic Reformation… lol) the clergy corruption, indulgences, poor priestly education, etc may not have been addressed so fervently or quickly.

‘Sure I got my feet chopped off - but think of all the money I’m saving on shoes!’

Whether or not the Reformation can be described as the original split within Christianity (and of course it really can’t), it remains nonetheless an incredibly grievous and festering wound in the Body of Christ - nothing remotely worthy of celebration however you look at it.

 

[benidict]

‘Sure I got my feet chopped off - but think of all the money I’m saving on shoes!’

Whether or not the Reformation can be described as the original split within Christianity (and of course it really can’t), it remains nonetheless an incredibly grievous and festering wound in the Body of Christ - nothing remotely worthy of celebration however you look at it.

AMEN TO THAT!

 

[JonNC]

God used martin luther to correct the Church? how? by bringing in writings and ideas that caused social and religious upheavel. **that brought in antisemitic teachings that were used to by hitler to kill 6 million jews? **God used martin luther? or was it teachings that caused all this confusion and opinions of man that has given us soooo many denominations. this is the movement you wish to celebrate? if so, leave me out of it.

To state that Luther “brought in” anti-semitic teachings just doesn’t match history. First, Luther’s later anti-jewish writings were religion-based (anti-jewish), and not race-based (anti-semitism). In addition, it was no different than the anti-jewish sentiments within the Church during and preceding Luther’s time.
Secondly, the Nazis could have very easily used Johannes Ecke’s or other Catholic writings to the same effect, to support his anti-semitic (race-based) rhetoric and brutality. In neither case can the writers be blamed for the actions of a monster some 400 years later.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

God used martin luther? or was it teachings that caused all this confusion and opinions of man that has given us soooo many denominations. this is the movement you wish to celebrate? if so, leave me out of it.

Which denominations do you perceive having come out of Lutheranism?

Jon

 

[benidict]

To state that Luther “brought in” anti-semitic teachings just doesn’t match history. First, Luther’s later anti-jewish writings were religion-based (anti-jewish), and not race-based (anti-semitism). In addition, it was no different than the anti-jewish sentiments within the Church during and preceding Luther’s time.
Secondly, the Nazis could have very easily used Johannes Ecke’s or other Catholic writings to the same effect, to support his anti-semitic (race-based) rhetoric and brutality. In neither case can the writers be blamed for the actions of a monster some 400 years later.

Jon

hi jon. hitler didnt use those catholic writings did he? unlike you i do not white wash what the Catholic Church has done. but luther was not distinguishing beteen their religion and their race. he was antisemitic. his writings made it clear that when they travel they should receive no protections, their homes and lands should be taken away. etc etc. but again hitler used luthers writings not Catholic writers to perpetuate his murder of six million Jews. again why would i celebrate such a movement.

 

[benidict]

Which denominations do you perceive having come out of Lutheranism?

Jon

hi jon. well since he got the ball rolling, id love to give you an answere but i cant name all 20000 of them. im being generous. most would say 30 to 40000. just as the Catholic Church can trace its beginings back to Christ and his Apostle. so we can trace all these denominations back to martin luthers revolt. i may be oversimplifying it, but everything has to start somewhere, correct?

 

[JonNC]

hi jon. hitler didnt use those catholic writings did he? unlike you i do not white wash what the Catholic Church has done. but luther was not distinguishing beteen their religion and their race. he was antisemitic. his writings made it clear that when they travel they should receive no protections, their homes and lands should be taken away. etc etc. but again hitler used luthers writings not Catholic writers to perpetuate his murder of six million Jews. again why would i celebrate such a movement.

I assume you have a source for your polemics. Perhaps you can share a link. Here’s mine:
ntrmin.org/Luther%20and%20the%20Jews%20(Web).htm

Also, you have accused me of whitewashing the Catholic Church. Could you please let me know on which post I did that? Thanks.

hi jon. well since he got the ball rolling, id love to give you an answere but i cant name all 20000 of them. im being generous. most would say 30 to 40000. just as the Catholic Church can trace its beginings back to Christ and his Apostle. so we can trace all these denominations back to martin luthers revolt. i may be oversimplifying it, but everything has to start somewhere, correct?

In other words, you don’t have knowledge of which ones came out of Lutheranism. I can help by saying anabaptists, Calvin, Zwingli, Anglicanism, none are spin offs of Lutheranism. They are all spin offs of Rome.
It is irrelevent, though, as none of this solves the issue of division.

Jon

 

[benidict]

point taken brother. and you are right, this spirit is regretable and must be condemned. like i said, im not going to white wash Catholocisms failures in this area. but their writings did not spark the long reaching hatred of a people on such an orginizational level that reached down thru the centuries. my point is im not going to celebrate a movement that has led to so much fracturing of truth, and the deaths of millions. there have been other reformers who never left the Church but attempted to reform her from within. they did not leave or start their own religion. my own parents are protestant, so you can imagine, october 31 is an interesting day in my household. im the only Catholic. lol!

 

[JonNC]

Thanks for your posts. As usual, you are right on target, Jharek. Of course, I’m afraid your logic and truly historic perspective doesn’t serve the polemic and indeed divisive intentions of some.
As for pointing to Catholic exemplars, I personally can’t think of a positive reason to do so.
It would be divisive, and would unfairly characterize the Catholic Church of today, which along with Lutheranism, rejects our shared history of anti-jewish bigotry.
Jon

 

[JonNC]

It is sad, too, because polemics from both sides (and it clearly comes from both sides) serve no useful purpose.

“fairly robust” Understatement of the day!
Jon

 

[benidict]

I assume you have a source for your polemics. Perhaps you can share a link. Here’s mine:
ntrmin.org/Luther%20and%20the%20Jews%20(Web).htm

Also, you have accused me of whitewashing the Catholic Church. Could you please let me know on which post I did that? Thanks.

In other words, you don’t have knowledge of which ones came out of Lutheranism. I can help by saying anabaptists, Calvin, Zwingli, Anglicanism, none are spin offs of Lutheranism. They are all spin offs of Rome.
It is irrelevent, though, as none of this solves the issue of division.

Jon

sorry jon, didnt phrase that right. not whitewashing the Catholics Churches part. white washing martin luthers. sorry for the misunderstanding. also wels.net/cgi-bin/site.pl?… but sorry, who came first? luther calvin or zwingli. who got the revolt going so the seed for further revolts was sewn? pretty sure it was your guy. after all, if luther could just read his bible and come up with the truth. why couldnt they. anything goes, correct? the anabaptist, calvin, and zwingli, as well as meno simons and john smyth all came later. just out of curiostity, i wonder what preluther reformation movement was there, that you can point to. there is one. but i want to see if you actually want to bite and stand up for this movement.

 

[JonNC]

sorry jon, didnt phrase that right. not whitewashing the Catholics Churches part. white washing martin luthers. sorry for the misunderstanding. also wels.net/cgi-bin/site.pl?… but sorry, who came first? luther calvin or zwingli. who got the revolt going so the seed for further revolts was sewn? pretty sure it was your guy. after all, if luther could just read his bible and come up with the truth. why couldnt they. anything goes, correct? the anabaptist, calvin, and zwingli, as well as meno simons and john smyth all came later. just out of curiostity, i wonder what preluther reformation movement was there, that you can point to. there is one. but i want to see if you actually want to bite and stand up for this movement.

Gotcha. I certainly never intend to whitewash Lutheranism or Luther himself. Ask some of the Catholic posters here as to my honesty in dialogue.

Actually, Jan Hus was 100 years earlier, and the anabaptist movement was already around when Luther came on the seen, and it was regularly condemned by him and Melanchton. Zwingli was a contemporary of Luther’s, and regularly condemned by him. Calvin was a bit later, but not directly tied to Luther. The theology is quite different.
As for later Protestants and evangelicals, most will tell you they find Luther’s “catholicity” untenable, and are more reformed in belief. Few if any hold our views on Baptism or the Eucharist. In short, they did not come out of Lutheranism.

Your comments about “who got the revolt going” at least to me is a rather simplistic view of the Reformation. And your line, “if luther could just read his bible and come up with the truth. why couldnt they. anything goes, correct?” just doesn’t reflect Luther’s approach to the Church. It also portrays a notion that 1) Calvin, et al, were mindless lemmings following the Pied Piper of Wittenburg, and 2) the Catholic Church was so inept as to be incapable of keeping them in the fold. I find none of these perceptions to be reasonable.

Jon

 

[benidict]

Gotcha. I certainly never intend to whitewash Lutheranism or Luther himself. Ask some of the Catholic posters here as to my honesty in dialogue.

Actually, Jan Hus was 100 years earlier, and the anabaptist movement was already around when Luther came on the seen, and it was regularly condemned by him and Melanchton. Zwingli was a contemporary of Luther’s, and regularly condemned by him. Calvin was a bit later, but not directly tied to Luther. The theology is quite different.
As for later Protestants and evangelicals, most will tell you they find Luther’s “catholicity” untenable, and are more reformed in belief. Few if any hold our views on Baptism or the Eucharist. In short, they did not come out of Lutheranism.

Your comments about “who got the revolt going” at least to me is a rather simplistic view of the Reformation. And your line, “if luther could just read his bible and come up with the truth. why couldnt they. anything goes, correct?” just doesn’t reflect Luther’s approach to the Church. It also portrays a notion that 1) Calvin, et al, were mindless lemmings following the Pied Piper of Wittenburg, and 2) the Catholic Church was so inept as to be incapable of keeping them in the fold. I find none of these perceptions to be reasonable.

Jon

hi joh. ok. thanks for the history lesson. i really do appreciate it. as far as the pre reformers i was talking about, how do you feel about the cathars who were active during the 13th century? quite a few protestants seem to sympathize with these people, and it amazes me, that they do, given some of the cathars practices. also i must confess, i dont have a college degree. so im not going to be as eductated as yourself in some areas.lol! but the reason for my responses on this thread, were because im being asked to celebrate a man and a movement im very much opposed to on concientious grounds. i have a real stron bond with my jewish brothers and sisters. also my priest is jewish by blood on his mothers side. and interestingly enough, was raised lutheran. i also have a lutheran friend who was thrown out of seminary, due to his belief found in romans, that Gods gifts and calling are irrevocable and that God still has a plan for his chosen people. he also is jewish by blood. and he has been seriously looking into the Catholic Church since this time. and i couldnt celebrate those Catholic authors, or any movement or person that would be considered anti semitic. and yep that includes luther.

 

[JonNC]

hi joh. ok. thanks for the history lesson. i really do appreciate it. as far as the pre reformers i was talking about, how do you feel about the cathars who were active during the 13th century? quite a few protestants seem to sympathize with these people, and it amazes me, that they do, given some of the cathars practices. also i must confess, i dont have a college degree. so im not going to be as eductated as yourself in some areas.lol! but the reason for my responses on this thread, were because im being asked to celebrate a man and a movement im very much opposed to on concientious grounds. i have a real stron bond with my jewish brothers and sisters. also my priest is jewish by blood on his mothers side. and interestingly enough, was raised lutheran. i also have a lutheran friend who was thrown out of seminary, due to his belief found in romans, that Gods gifts and calling are irrevocable and that God still has a plan for his chosen people. he also is jewish by blood. and he has been seriously looking into the Catholic Church since this time. and i couldnt celebrate those Catholic authors, or any movement or person that would be considered anti semitic. and yep that includes luther.

I can’t speak for all who claim to be Lutheran, and I have said already that I condemn the bigotry against the Jews, whether it be the race-based anti-semitism of Hitler and others, or the religion-based anti-judaism expressed by Luther and others of the past. I think you would agree that both of our communions reject that kind of bigotry.

I have stated, perhaps on this thread, that I do not “celebrate” the Reformation. I do commemorate it as an important event in the history of the Church. I do not celebrate it because it is indicative of the sin we all share in our divisions. It is a shared responsibility, as even the Catholic Catechism stated there is blame enough to go around. Further, I do not see the Reformation as a success or even complete, until there is reconciliation.

Finally, I honor you for your faith. I only ask that you respect me in my faith, and remember that there is much more to history than the polemics that you or I may have heard from apologists in our respective camps. In fact, there is much more of the Holy Spirit in each of our communions than the evil one wants us to recognize in each other.

Jon

 

[Nominefili]

Finally, I honor you for your faith. I only ask that you respect me in my faith, and remember that there is much more to history than the polemics that you or I may have heard from apologists in our respective camps. In fact, there is much more of the Holy Spirit in each of our communions than the evil one wants us to recognize in each other.

 

[benidict]

I can’t speak for all who claim to be Lutheran, and I have said already that I condemn the bigotry against the Jews, whether it be the race-based anti-semitism of Hitler and others, or the religion-based anti-judaism expressed by Luther and others of the past. I think you would agree that both of our communions reject that kind of bigotry.

I have stated, perhaps on this thread, that I do not “celebrate” the Reformation. I do commemorate it as an important event in the history of the Church. I do not celebrate it because it is indicative of the sin we all share in our divisions. It is a shared responsibility, as even the Catholic Catechism stated there is blame enough to go around. Further, I do not see the Reformation as a success or even complete, until there is reconciliation.

Finally, I honor you for your faith. I only ask that you respect me in my faith, and remember that there is much more to history than the polemics that you or I may have heard from apologists in our respective camps. In fact, there is much more of the Holy Spirit in each of our communions than the evil one wants us to recognize in each other.

Jon

thank you for your candor jon. i do respect your faith. and there is much to tie Lutherans and Catholics together. we are only apart by a few degrees. i believe in the future( hopefully in our liftetime) we will see something akin to what is happening with the Anglican communion and the shift to rome. and yes there is much more to history than we have been using. and yes there is enough blame to go around. did not mean any disrespect, but these writings of his do make me wonder just what spirit he was opporating under. cannot judge todays lutherans by their founder.