'Harry Potter and yoga are evil', says Catholic Church exorcist

[Gabriel_Serafin]

Don’t know if you were reading that far back, but we’ve been over this already. Exorcists are experts in exorcising people. They only arrive after the person is already possessed. They have no expertise, nor any need for expertise, in the occult. While the occult may lead to possession, it is not itself possession, and so the exorcists are not experts in it.

Nonsense.

It is acting, yes. But this acting depicts real fornication, etc. The acting in harry potter does NOT depict real witchcraft.

Don’t be silly. I’m afraid you’re missing the point. Just have to agree to disagree…

As for suggesting I be humble - you don’t know me. You know absolutely nothing about me. You don’t get to suggest I be humble like I am not just because I have a differing view than you. That is, by definition, arrogant and presumptuous of you. You think* I’m* not the humble one? Look in the mirror.

Now you’re being a silly goose. Multiple exorcists have cautioned against HP series. Why do you think that is?

 

[Farsight001]

Nonsense.

An offhanded dismissal based on no reasoning at all.

Don’t be silly. I’m afraid you’re missing the point. Just have to agree to disagree…

I’m really not. My logic is sound. Your offhanded dismissal based on no reasoning or logic at all is what is lacking.

Now you’re being a silly goose. Multiple exorcists have cautioned against HP series. Why do you think that is?

Don’t really know, don’t really care. They’re not HP experts. You can claim they’re occult experts, but I see no evidence to indicate this and HP is not occult anyway. Now stop talking down to me as though I were a child. It’s insulting.

This is the umpteenth +2 time I’ve said it - HP and the occult resemble each other in exactly ZERO ways.

 

[Farsight001]

So what’s the difference? The actors in HP are acting out sorcery and casting spells. It sounds like you are rationalizing a defense, and that can be done for anything…

the difference is that THEY ARE NOT ACTING OUT SORCERY AND CASTING SPELLS - at least not the way witches and sorcerers and occultists in real life do. Again, they resemble each other in ZERO ways. Or do you really think that occultists are out there right now with wands, smacking people with spells and riding around on brooms?

 

[Gabriel_Serafin]

stop talking down to me as though I were a child. It’s insulting.

I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to hurt your feelings. But I do think you’re being silly to dismiss the cautions expressed about these movies which depict children casting spells and practicing “pretend” sorcery.

This is the umpteenth +2 time I’ve said it - HP and the occult resemble each other in exactly ZERO ways.

I’m sorry but I don’t agree, and your arguments seem to be founded on emotion rather than reason. I disagree with your opinion; this doesn’t mean you should get mad. And no, I don’t see you as an expert on the matter either. I take the stance of CA apologist Jimmy Akin. He said that after reading the first novel and watching the first two movies he recognize that they can have a harmful spiritual effect on some readers, especially among the young.

 

[twf]

I’ve noticed that those arguing against Harry Potter in this thread haven’t even attempted to address the many well thought out arguments, presented earlier in this thread by a few posters, that the series does in fact promote Christian values and is full of many deliberate and even explicit Christian metaphors, allegories, and symbolism. As illustrated in this very thread, Rowling herself is a Christian and has implied in public that her books include allegorical elements. The wizards of Harry Potter are not ordinary children…they are, as other posters have pointed out, a distinct subspecies born with innate abilility…it is a natural talent…not a power ordinary children can learn through invocation… it is NOTHING like real magic… no more so than the magic of Aslan in the Narnia series. It is emphasized again and again throughout the series that the greatest form of magic is self-sacrificial love…what Christians would call agape love… laying down your life for another is explictly shown to be the ‘greatest’ form of magic, more powerful than any curse or spell… the Christian symbolism is as obvious as it could possibly be. Scripture is directly quoted in the novels more than once!

Of course I’ve also met Baptists who condemn Narnia as a gateway to the Occult…

 

[Farsight001]

I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to hurt your feelings. But I do think you’re being silly to dismiss the cautions expressed about these movies which depict children casting spells and practicing “pretend” sorcery.

really? You apologize while simultaneously doing it again? You’re not making yourself seem worth listening to.

I’m sorry but I don’t agree, and your arguments seem to be founded on emotion rather than reason. I disagree with your opinion; this doesn’t mean you should get mad. And no, I don’t see you as an expert on the matter either. I take the stance of CA apologist Jimmy Akin. He said that after reading the first novel and watching the first two movies he recognize that they can have a harmful spiritual effect on some readers, especially among the young.

There’s no “not agreeing” here. There’s correct and incorrect. It’s not a matter of opinion. They look nothing like each other. You’d realize that instantly if you knew the first thing about real occult practices.

Yes, they CAN have a harmful spiritual effect on some readers. Drinking alcohol CAN have a harmful spiritual effect. Thrill seeking CAN have a harmful spiritual effect. Watching too many movies, even spiritual and holy ones, CAN have a harmful spiritual effect. You don’t forbid all people from something because it CAN have a harmful effect for some. I even know some people who turn away from God from reading the bible. For those who it does harm to, they should avoid it. If it causes you problems, then you should avoid it. If it causes your kids problems, then you should keep it away from them. But the vast majority of us suffer no such issues. Its not a near occasion of sin for us.

 

[Gabriel_Serafin]

really? You apologize while simultaneously doing it again? You’re not making yourself seem worth listening to.

Calm down. Please don’t be so defensive.

There’s no “not agreeing” here. There’s correct and incorrect. It’s not a matter of opinion.

Yes, and I think you are incorrect. So does Fr. Gabriel Amorth.

They look nothing like each other. You’d realize that instantly if you knew the first thing about real occult practices.

Casting spells is not an occult practice?

Yes, they CAN have a harmful spiritual effect on some readers.

Well, that’s the only point I’ve been making. Now please tell me this: What kind of spiritual harm can it cause? Are you saying it might introduce some people into the occult? What spiritual harm are you talking about. Please explain.

For those who it does harm to, they should avoid it.

These books and movies are consumed by millions of children. Which children should avoid them and what kind of spiritual harm threatens these children? Please explain.

 

[curlycool89]

Let me ask you this. Why do you think the Bible and the Catechism both vigorously condemn the practice of sorcery and casting spells?

I have a question back for you actually. Do you know the theological reason behind the prohibition? It shouldn’t be that hard for you to find, since I already gave it in this thread.

Part 2, is once you’ve found this reason (definition if you will), I want you to show us how Harry Potter falls under this definition, without mentioning Fr. Amorth, Joseph Ratzinger, Jimmy Akin, or any other source. Call it an academic exercise, no plagiarism. Do your own work.

It’s not that hard. If you think Harry Potter contains sorcery, then all I’m asking for you to do it

PROOVE IT

Of course, the rest of us have already disproved it, so I’m just waiting to see what kind of crazy theory you come up with that we can tear apart.

 

[Mark_David]

Yoga can be more, but most people I know just do the stretches for flexibility. I know it does wonders for my back and my hips. I have not done it since my mom died, and I really am feeling the difference today. I have to get back to it, or I will be in some serious back pain soon.

HP’s wizardry is fiction. Pretend. Make-believe.

The first commandment is against real issues. Just stretching and reading fantasy fiction do no violate the commandments. HP is not a “how to” manual, no matter how many times someone says it is. It just simply is not. Again, it is fantasy fiction, a story about an imaginary place and imaginary people.

But using this argument, you could also defend watching pornographic animation. Fictional characters and places; not necessarily a “how to” guide. But the bottom line is, it’s still promoting sin. I think that’s the main issue here: what it promotes in general, not how accurate its particulars are. Similarly, the Twilight series has vampires, which of course do not exist - yet the objectionable element is that it promotes skewered, upside-down values, ie: that predators/killers are attractive, and nice people once you get to know them.

As for Yoga, I suppose it would be fine for the physical exercises alone - but the question is, can you separate those from the spiritual elements? Some would argue that they’re inherently connected. Besides, there are many other forms of exercise without spiritual components.

 

[curlycool89]

But using this argument, you could also defend watching pornographic animation. Fictional characters and places; not necessarily a “how to” guide. But the bottom line is, it’s still promoting sin. I think that’s the main issue here: what it promotes in general, not how accurate its particulars are.

So, tell us why Gandalf is ok then? How about when Lucy uses magic in Dawn Treader? How are these different then traditional fairy tales, or Disney stories, or Brothers Grim, or anything like that?

Also, can we stop with the references to pornography? Porn falls under the 6th Commandment (you can make a thin argument relating to the 1st commandment if you want to talk about the dignity of a person made in the image and likeness of God, but that has nothing to do with what you’re talking about). Different commandments, different explanations and standards. Seeing a statue of Zeus does not violate the 1st commandment (there are some pretty cool statues actually), seeing 2 unmarried people having sex in an adult film does violate the 6th commandment.

Theologians you guys are not.

 

[Farsight001]

Calm down. Please don’t be so defensive.

I am calm. I’m not being defensive. I just choose to stand up for myself when talked down to.

Yes, and I think you are incorrect. So does Fr. Gabriel Amorth.

Fr. Gabriel has not said a single word about how similar he thinks HP is to the occult, so this statement is clearly untrue.

Casting spells is not an occult practice?

From a wand containing a relic of a mystical creature by saying one or two fake Latin words? Certainly not. Occultists don’t call it casting spells anyway.

Well, that’s the only point I’ve been making. Now please tell me this: What kind of spiritual harm can it cause? Are you saying it might introduce some people into the occult? What spiritual harm are you talking about. Please explain.

If that’s the only point you’ve been trying to make, then why have you adamantly opposed people saying exactly that before? And why are you acting as if every person on the planet should avoid HP because it is evil by nature? If all you think is that some people can be mislead by it and that those specific people should avoid it, you’re arguing from the wrong side.

These books and movies are consumed by millions of children. Which children should avoid them and what kind of spiritual harm threatens these children? Please explain.

There is no way to identify which children specifically among the millions in the world. It’s not like they have identifying marks. It is the responsibility of the parents or caretakers to recognize when children get too into something and redirect their attentions.

 

[Gabriel_Serafin]

I have a question back for you actually. Do you know the theological reason behind the prohibition? It shouldn’t be that hard for you to find, since I already gave it in this thread.

There are many reasons, one being that it is against the virtue of religion and it also is an offense against our faith and trust in God. But it also opens the soul up to Satanic deception, not to mention demonic harassment. Exorcists tell us that people who become possessed at some point dabbled with the occult, which includes things like playing with Ouija boards to actually casting magic spells. Now CHECK THIS OUT

I want you to show us how Harry Potter falls under this definition

Again, it’s not that hard to grasp that Harry Potter series is all about casting spells and harnessing the natural elements to have power over them. Thus the whole school in the story is about becoming a wizard.

If you think Harry Potter contains sorcery, then all I’m asking for you to do it

PROOVE IT

The Harry Potter series is about a young boy who discovers he is really a wizard. “Wizard” is another word for sorcerer. Harry is a character who is learning the arts of sorcery and witchcraft. Thus, any children’s book set in an occult environment offering a hero who practices the occult is what has exorcists cautioning parents. Why is this so hard to understand?

Harry Potter attends the “Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry” and what is really being described in the book is sorcery presented for children…

Of course, the rest of us have already disproved it, so I’m just waiting to see what kind of crazy theory you come up with that we can tear apart

Don’t be silly. All you have sjhown is that you have an opinion, which I respect, but don’t agree with. Especially when your arguments are contradictory and dismissive of people who deal with real demons. Demons are behind sorcery and the occult…

 

[Catholic90]

But using this argument, you could also defend watching pornographic animation. Fictional characters and places; not necessarily a “how to” guide. But the bottom line is, it’s still promoting sin. I think that’s the main issue here: what it promotes in general, not how accurate its particulars are. Similarly, the Twilight series has vampires, which of course do not exist - yet the objectionable element is that it promotes skewered, upside-down values, ie: that predators/killers are attractive, and nice people once you get to know them.

As for Yoga, I suppose it would be fine for the physical exercises alone - but the question is, can you separate those from the spiritual elements? Some would argue that they’re inherently connected. Besides, there are many other forms of exercise without spiritual components.

Yet another comparison between HP and pornography! Seriously?!? Naw, I cannot take you seriously!

Look, if you don’t like HP, don’t read it. But don’t attempt to tell us that HP is something it is not. It is NOT a how to manual on how to become a sorcerer!

Yoga is stretching for the vast majority of people. That is a fact. Heck, our Catholic school hosts yoga classes! They are stretching classes.

Fear, fear, fear…it is present in so many people! Why?

I choose NOT to be afraid! I reject fear and choose faith in God and see all the allegorical Christian messages in HP. I guess I also know the difference between fantasy fiction and reality. Common sense to me.

 

[Catholic90]

Demons are behind sorcery and the occult…

Real sorcery and the real occult, which HP is NOT. It is a story.

Have you noticed all the Christian allegory in HP? Love wins. Guy lays down his life for his friends. Good defeats evil. Pretty cool stuff. Very similar to another story we are all familiar with…

 

[Mark_David]

Yet another comparison between HP and pornography!

So what? It was a valid comparison. This is merely an emotional reaction on your part.

Look, if you don’t like HP, don’t read it. But don’t attempt to tell us that HP is something it is not. It is NOT a how to manual on how to become a sorcerer!

I don’t read HP, and you missed the entire point of my post, which I thought was clear. It’s not about the particulars, it’s about what it promotes in general. Who cares whether the spells work or not, whether they’re fictional or not - the thing is that spells are shown in a positive light. I don’t think this point can be made any clearer.

Fear, fear, fear…it is present in so many people! Why?

It’s not fear per se, but a valid concern. Is that so wrong? If some of your brothers and sisters in Christ express concern, shouldn’t you at least consider it instead of dismiss it mockingly and out of hand?

 

[Mark_David]

So, tell us why Gandalf is ok then? How about when Lucy uses magic in Dawn Treader? How are these different then traditional fairy tales, or Disney stories, or Brothers Grim, or anything like that?

Also, can we stop with the references to pornography? Porn falls under the 6th Commandment (you can make a thin argument relating to the 1st commandment if you want to talk about the dignity of a person made in the image and likeness of God, but that has nothing to do with what you’re talking about). Different commandments, different explanations and standards. Seeing a statue of Zeus does not violate the 1st commandment (there are some pretty cool statues actually), seeing 2 unmarried people having sex in an adult film does violate the 6th commandment.

Theologians you guys are not.

Your post makes little sense to me, and your insults are not very becoming.

How does a knee-jerk reaction to a pornography reference help justify your liking a fiction that glorifies sorcery? It doesn’t - at all. Also, I never suggested that pornography violated the first commandment - that was an analogy. Please don’t use straw men. Witchcraft is repeatedly condemned in the Bible and Church Fathers. Again, whether the spells work or are purely fictional is entirely besides the point… just as some pornographic animation is very unrealistic and yet still immoral (again, an analogy.) But now seeing the insults being hurled on this thread, it’s clear that this is an irrational, emotional issue, not one to do with defending what is doctrinally sound. So I suppose this is all a lost cause and won’t get anywhere.

God bless.

 

[mlz]

Gabriel, have you read the books? You keep avoiding that question.

Answering for myself as you seem to think unless you haven’t read or watched the movies you aren’t able to converse about this so…I’ve read and watched and yes, I must tell you that you need to seriously consider the strong warning from someone working closely to this is saying. Show respect to those in authority in the Church. These are spokespeople the Vatican supports in this area of expertise. Evil is working it’s ugly ways and convincing people that it’s nothing, not real etc…all just what Satan is trying hard to do. Yet, many think they know so much more. Don’t be decieved. My prayers for all,

mlz

 

[Catholic90]

So what? It was a valid comparison. This is merely an emotional reaction on your part.

I don’t read HP, and you missed the entire point of my post, which I thought was clear. It’s not about the particulars, it’s about what it promotes in general. Who cares whether the spells work or not, whether they’re fictional or not - the thing is that spells are shown in a positive light. I don’t think this point can be made any clearer.

It’s not fear per se, but a valid concern. Is that so wrong? If some of your brothers and sisters in Christ express concern, shouldn’t you at least consider it instead of dismiss it mockingly and out of hand?

No, it is not a valid comparison.

You seemed to be focused on the spells, not the message of the story.

Sure, some probably cannot handle the stories. They should not read them then. However, most people can handle reading the stories and see them for what they are (and for what they are not!) Don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater. My kids and I will always share the memories of me reading the books to them as they grew up. Every single book I read out loud to them over the years, from elementary school to even as they were in high school! That is pretty awesome.

See my signature - see the GOOD all around you. I focus on the good messages of the books.

 

[jilly4ski]

I don’t read HP, and you missed the entire point of my post, which I thought was clear. It’s not about the particulars, it’s about what it promotes in general. Who cares whether the spells work or not, whether they’re fictional or not - the thing is that spells are shown in a positive light. I don’t think this point can be made any clearer.

Did you watch Star Wars when you were younger? Did you sometimes pretend you were Luke or a Jedi and could use the Force?
The Force has the same similarities to occult magic as HP magic has to occult magic. The point is that HP does not portray occult spells in a positive light.

The Force be with you.

And with your Spirit.

 

[Catholic90]

I’ve read and watched and yes, I must tell you that you need to seriously consider the strong warning from someone working closely to this is saying. Show respect to those in authority in the Church. These are spokespeople the Vatican supports in this area of expertise. Evil is working it’s ugly ways and convincing people that it’s nothing, not real etc…all just what Satan is trying hard to do. Yet, many think they know so much more. Don’t be decieved. My prayers for all,

mlz

No one in the Vatican has made a definitive statement regarding HP. The Pope has not said one word about HP. AND for every spokesperson making statements against, there are spokespeople making statements for. They’ve been discussed ad nauseum on various HP threads on these very forums.

The spokespeople are not infallible! They are not HP or literature experts.