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styrgwillidar
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Thank you, since so many kids are familiar with it, in CCD classes (7th/8th grade) I try to point out how it is a warning against becoming overly attached to this world.
This is an excellent summary!
I’d wondered about whether a sci-fi story could do the same kind of thing but I think it would fail since it would reduce the soul to being some kind of material object which could be manipulated without a moral context to the manipulation.
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R_H_Benson
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I guess you could say I am the “Lord Voldemort” of this thread!
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MaryHelp777
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In the Lord of the Rings,
The wizards magic comes from the God of Middle Earth, Illuvatar, (sort of like priests exercise Jesus power on earth). The only thing mentioned that Gandalf does with his words is use incantations.
In Harry Potter, the magic comes from the persons own power. And all occult terminology is used; divination, charms, transfiguration, hexes, curses,
These are all terminologies taken from actual black magic.
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ProdglArchitect
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Not really. While we may disagree with your premise, but your actions are the result of being concerned for others. Voldemort was only concerned with himself, which ultimately led to his destruction. Pride was his big thing. There were plenty of times when one of his followers could have killed Harry, but no he had to be the big man and do it himself. Ultimately, that pride wound up getting him killed. (Another very major Christian theme.)
If anything, I’d say you’re… maybe Percy…
Fellow Potterheads, what do you think?
(please don’t take offense, this is meant as a jovial gesture.)I really don’t think you’ve given these books a fair shake. You should try rereading them with a bit more open attitude. There’s a lot of Christianity in them.
Incidentally, I do agree with you that they should be kept out of the main Church services like the mass, but I also think they can be a valuable tool for catechesis.
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ProdglArchitect
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In Harry Potter, the magic is a gift which certain people possess, not that different from, say, the gift of tongues, or the ability to heal the sick. Occult terminology is used because those words reflect the action taking place, but not exactly. Divination is basically treated as a joke, and the charms, hexes and curses do not invoke any entity for their effect like their real life counterparts. These words have all been used in both Christian and non-Christian literature for a long time, and their use is not inherently evil.
Similarly, magic in the book is not inherently evil like it is in reality. Certain people have the capacity to perform magic, just like certain people in real life have been given gifts and abilities. I think the point you’re missing is that there’s nothing inherently wrong with using magic as a backdrop for exploring the struggle of good and evil in a person’s soul. It’s fiction, and pretty much everyone understands that. If someone doesn’t, then reading Harry Potter is really the least of their troubles…
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twf
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This is absurd. Can you provide actual hard evidence for your claims from the books themselves, other than superficial words such as “witch” or “wizard” which can mean many things in different contexts (the same words appear in Lord of the Rings for example)?
The books are EXTREMELY Christian in their outlook and ethos…Christian symbolism just drips from the pages. The author, JK Rowling, is Presbyterian and has explicitly stated that her Christian faith inspired many elements of the novels. No one can read through the seven books from start to finish without seeing the Gospel themes…as another poster pointed out, it is very in your face by the end. (Harry, who is pure of heart and spirit, dies for his friends…upon rising, the power of the Dark Lord is defeated and he can no longer harm Harry’s friends). Scripture is quoted more than once (“the last enemy to be defeated shall be death”). One moment that always stood out in my mind was when Dumbledore finally explains to Harry how he survived all those years: “I took refuge in your mother’s blood.” Self-sacrifice out of love, the shedding of one’s own blood, is shown to be far greater than any magic. Throughout themes of self-sacrifice, love, purity, and bravery are taught.
The magic of the fictional Harry Potter world is completely fantastical - no different than that of Lord of the Rings or Narnia. Other than superficial words, there are no parallels to the occult:
- Wizards have innate, natural abilities. They are a separate race in a sense. They are either born with magic or they are not. A major plot point is the fact that Harry’s aunt is cruel towards him because of her own bitterness - she tried with all her might to do magic but as a mere mortal human simply could not…she isn’t of the magical “race”.
- Contrary to what many critics claim, Harry is NOT a normal boy. He is the exact opposite of a normal boy. He comes from a long line of magical beings.
- There is no invocations of spirits, no conjuring of external forces…magic is simply, as I said, something they’re born with… no different than your ability to move your arms.
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R_H_Benson
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HP has been strongly condemned numerous times by exorcists, including Father Gabriel Amorth.
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R_H_Benson
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Bingo.
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ProdglArchitect
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This entire post has already been rebutted.
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R_H_Benson
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You have presented what in your opinion is a justification, but I wouldn’t say that it has been rebutted. The explicit occult terminology employed so often in HP is not something to which our children should be exposed ever, heaven forbid at church. It awakens dangerous curiosities. Therefore it is imprudent and not profitable for salvation. It is really that simple.
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ProdglArchitect
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Except for that same terminology is used in plenty of Christian and Catholic fictional literature. I believe even Tolkien uses similar terms, and if not terms then concepts. Why does Tolkien get a pass while Rowling does not? Please, do not say that it’s because Tolkien was a Catholic writer. We’ve already demonstrated that there are ample Christian themes throughout the entire Harry Potter series, it is an explicitly Christian story.
It is hypocritical to denounce one series for it’s use of occult concepts and terminology, while giving another series a pass simply because you prefer it or think its better. In both stories, the magic is both a gift, and something that is learned. In LotR, it is explicitly stated that the gift was given by “God” to certain individuals whom he created to be able to use it (the wizards, and angel equivalents… I can’t remember the specific terms) In HP, it’s a gift that a person is born with, the same as every other gift we are born with, all of which are given to us by God. Just because one states it explicitly and the other does not doesn’t make one better than the other.
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twf
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This is the appeal to authority fallacy. It is not, in itself, an argument. These comments do not reflect the magisterium. Even holy exorcists are fallible. I have heard these claims, but as someone who has read through the books multiple times, I see all of the arguments against them fall flat when the actual text is examined. In my earlier post I presented arguments (including the author’s explicit intention) that these are ultimately Christian stories. Our faith is a rational one…so far the only argument anyone seems to have is “exorcists have said its of the occult”, yet no one, including the exorcists, can actually show where in the text this lines up, nor provide an explanation for the explicit Christian content and the author’s stated Christian intent.
Personally I believe that these exorcists have no read the novels, but have sadly come across cases where unstable people who were fans of Harry Potter (or perhaps the genre at large) got interested in the real occult. I don’t see why Narnia or Lord of the Rings, if read by such people, couldn’t trigger the same unnatural curiosities… for the magic of Harry Potter is equally fantastical. As I noted earlier, in the world of Harry Potter, unlike the real occult, normal human beings cannot practice magic…it is a natural ability that some have, much like my ability to speak…that’s a major plot point as some normal human beings who truly seek magical powers become resentful as it simply isn’t possible for them.
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twf
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Yes. Dumbledore quotes Scripture, speaks of the afterlife as “the next great adventure”, and the wizards even have saints (St. Mungo’s hospital
)… Rowling doesn’t directly address God within the pages of her world, but that doesn’t mean He isn’t there. That’s open to the interpretation of the reader.
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BornInMarch
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That’s wrong. The story treats “witchcraft and wizardry” more like a genetic trait that can be improved with practicing than like true occult. Nobody in the story cuts a goat open or invokes a demon; they’re just born with a super ability*. Harry Potter is no different than star wars (in which people are born with the force because of bacteria in their blood) or X Men (in which some people are born with super abilities, and yet for some reason are treated with scorn).
And even if harry potter DID involve occult, it is dangerous to state that a point of view should never even be studied if you disagree with it. Even truly horrible viewpoints still serve as cautionary tales.
*This is still a horrible message, as any story with Hereditary Superpowers have anti-egalitarian messages.
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MaryHelp777
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Simple:
Tolkien does not have Gandalf using hexes, curses, divination, or charms, which are black magic occult terms.
Gandalf does not use his own power, he is a servant of the God of Middle Earth Illuvatar (like priests exercise Jesus power).
The Harry Potter characters use charms, hexes, curses and divination. These are occult terminology. Occult uses power from satan. The Bible is clear on both divination and curses and the occult.
Gandalf never uses divination. Illuvatar’s power shines through him to be used when needed.
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MaryHelp777
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Rome has even spoken out against the Potter books. In early December of 2001, the Diocese of Rome’s official exorcist, Father Gabriele Amorth, warned parents against the Harry Potter book series. The priest, who is also the president of the International Association of Exorcists, said Satan is behind the works.
In an interview with the Italian INSA news agency, Father Amorth said, “Behind Harry Potter hides the signature of the king of darkness, the devil.” The exorcist, with his decades of experience in directly combating evil, explained that J.K. Rowling’s books contain innumerable positive references to magic, “the satanic art”. He noted that the books attempt to make a false distinction between black and white magic, when in fact, the distinction “does not exist, because magic is always a turn to the devil.”
In another interview, which was published in papers across Europe, Father Amorth denounced the disordered morality presented in Rowling’s works, noting that they suggest that rules can be contravened, and that lying is justified when they work to one’s benefit.
In an interview with the Italian INSA news agency, Father Amorth said, “Behind Harry Potter hides the signature of the king of darkness, the devil.” The exorcist, with his decades of experience in directly combating evil, explained that J.K. Rowling’s books contain innumerable positive references to magic, “the satanic art”. He noted that the books attempt to make a false distinction between black and white magic, when in fact, the distinction “does not exist, because magic is always a turn to the devil.”
In another interview, which was published in papers across Europe, Father Amorth denounced the disordered morality presented in Rowling’s works, noting that they suggest that rules can be contravened, and that lying is justified when they work to one’s benefit.
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MaryHelp777
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The Pagan Federation in England receives an average of 100 inquiries a month from young people who want to become witches — an unprecedented phenomenon which is attributed in part to the Potter books.
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MaryHelp777
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In the Catechism of the Catholic Church, sections 2116-2117, it states the following: “All forms of divination are to be rejected: recourse to Satan or demons… Consulting horoscopes, astrology, palm reading, interpretation of omens and lots, the phenomena of clairvoyance, and recourse to mediums contradict the honor, respect, and loving fear that we owe to God alone.
“All practices of magic or sorcery, by which one attempts to fame occult powers, so as to place them at one’s service and have a supernatural power over others, are gravely contrary to the virtue of religion. These practices are even more to be condemned when accompanied by the intention of harming someone, or when they have recourse to the intervention of demons. Wearing charms is also reprehensible. Spiritism often implies divination or magical practices; the Church for her part warns the faithful against it.”
Divination, astrology, and omens, palm reading, as well as charms and curses and hexes are all mentioned in the Harry Potter series, these are all occult terminology.
Frodo and Gandalf do not do anything, that is occult in the Lord of the Rings series, no mention of divination, curses, hexes, astrology, on their part whatsoever.
“All practices of magic or sorcery, by which one attempts to fame occult powers, so as to place them at one’s service and have a supernatural power over others, are gravely contrary to the virtue of religion. These practices are even more to be condemned when accompanied by the intention of harming someone, or when they have recourse to the intervention of demons. Wearing charms is also reprehensible. Spiritism often implies divination or magical practices; the Church for her part warns the faithful against it.”
Divination, astrology, and omens, palm reading, as well as charms and curses and hexes are all mentioned in the Harry Potter series, these are all occult terminology.
Frodo and Gandalf do not do anything, that is occult in the Lord of the Rings series, no mention of divination, curses, hexes, astrology, on their part whatsoever.
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ProdglArchitect
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The use of occult terminology is not equal to the use of actual occult practices, and there is certainly no indication in the books that their magical abilities are anything other than genetic in origin (in fact, it is a major plot point that they -are- genetic in nature.)
You are equating something in a book with the real-life practices of black magic and occultism. The two just aren’t comparable.
Gandalf uses magic on several occasions. I seem to recall him using his staff to light the way in the Mines of Mordor, not unlike The Potterverse spell Lumos, which creates a light at the tip of the wand. The hobbits are given cloaks that camouflage them regardless of terrain, much like the invisibility cloak in the Potterverse. Gandalf uses his magic to create complex fireworks, just like the Weasley Twins use magic to create toys and gags.
The difference comes in the universe. In LotR, Gandalf’s magic comes from Illuvatar, as do Sauron’s and Sarumon’s. With the character of Sarumon, Tolkien was studying the duality of choice. One one hand you have Gandalf who has great power, but only uses it for good. On the other, you have Sarumon, who has great power and uses it to further his own desires and reject good. Likewise, in the Potterverse, you have Dumbledor, who has immense power which he only uses for good; and Voldemort, who uses his immense power for evil. It’s the same dichotomy, and the same study into the nature of man. Both studies come in the form of being who have the gift of magic, and the root of the study is in how they use that magic.
In Harry Potter, they do use curses, hexes, and charms, but just because they use the same linguistic term to group them doesn’t mean that they are the same thing. In real occult magics, pacts are made with spirits and demons, through whom the practitioner tries to achieve a certain end. Charms, hexes and curses all invoke spiritual beings to work. In Harry Potter, these are only classifications of different types of spells, none of which invoke spirits. They are simply abilities a given group of people have.
Just because an author uses a particular word to categorize something doesn’t mean that it’s equivalent to all other uses of that word. Tolkien may not have used the word “charms” to describe some of Gandalf’s magic; but in practice, several of Gandalf’s smaller spells are identical to the charms we see in Harry Potter. Likewise, several of the grander spells he uses, such as when he’s fighting the Balrog, are the same as spells we see in Harry Potter, just under a different name.
As for divination, if you notice, it’s pretty much universally mocked in the HP universe. Only one character actually takes it seriously, and even she is basically a fraud. The only times she does experience prophetic visions, she doesn’t remember them, and has no control over them. This is analogous to the OT Prophets who were given visions from God but had no control over them.
At a basic level, I understand why you have these opinions about Potter; but when you actually dig in deep and look at what’s going on in the book, there are really no problems in it.
Thank you. I love Tolkien’s universe, but I just could not make it through the Simarillion XD
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