Harry Potter

[R_H_Benson]

OK, so two exorcists have spoken out against HP.

Why aren’t the rest of them joining their voices in warning the masses?
Why is there no official warning from our bishops?

Sadly, there aren’t that many exorcists around anymore. Many bishops don’t even believe in the reality of Satan or demonic oppression / possession.

I’m sorry, but I’m not jumping on any one (or two) priest’s bandwagon for his pet project. I am a ROMAN Catholic – I follow the Magisterium. And where the Magisterium has not issued an official stance on something, we Catholics are free to use our own judgment, using actual official teaching as a guide.

Have you entertained the possibility that the exorcists who condemn Harry Potter draw their reasons directly from the Magisterium? Sure, we are free in matters like this to make our own choices. But prudence seems to be against you. Exorcists are the Church’s most knowledgeable men on matters pertaining to the demonic. Choose to brush them off at your own risk. Me? I don’t think it is worth it. There are so many other wholesome books out there to read. Harry Potter will never occupy space on my bookshelves.

If you fear demons and evil from a certain book or movie or food or toy or location on the planet – avoid it.

I know you are trying to paint me as a superstitious simpleton - maybe like the Transylvanian townsfolk described in Bram Stoker’s “Dracula”? But the truth is Satan is always trying to seduce the faithful away from Christ by any means possible. And because of this I firmly believe that there are certain places, objects, and people that Catholics should avoid.

Just curious, but do you also avoid associating with people who are not living a devout Catholic life? Do you have any friendly relationships with people who are gay/lesbian? Atheist/Agnostic? Liberal? Feminist? New age practitioners? Do you fear that associating with such people might open a door to evil in your life?

As Catholics, we are called to bring ALL people to Christ’s Church. And to be best equipped to do so, we should fill our minds with holy thoughts, not with stories that glorify the occult like the “wizards and witches” of Harry Potter. If we are not well equipped and spiritually fortified (primarily by remaining in the state of grace), then YES, the evil influences of other people can have a negative impact on us, and before you know it, THEY are the ones doing the converting. How many souls have been seduced away from the Holy Catholic Church over the past several decades because the faithful began to disregard the absolute necessity of leading a holy life and were snatched by the vices and temptations of the world?

 

[Gertabelle]

I hear what you are saying too, but As Father Ripperger says, “The devil is not under every nook, he is under every other nook!”

Jesus told us to follow HIM. He did not tell us to go looking for Satan. That’s just disgusting!

He also taught His disciples (us ) to pray: “Deliver us from evil.” We do not seek out evil so as to deliver ourselves from it. We keep our eyes fixed on Christ – “As the hands a maid are on her mistress, so our eyes are fixed on the Lord” – and He who sees the evils that might assail us on every side delivers us from them.

 

[R_H_Benson]

Jesus told us to follow HIM. He did not tell us to go looking for Satan. That’s just disgusting!

“Be sober and watch: because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, goeth about seeking whom he may devour.”

1 Peter 5

The Prince of the Apostles tells us that to follow Christ we must constantly be on guard. The devil will not stop trying to steal our soul’s until the moment we draw our last breath and by God’s grace are borne away by Holy Angels to heaven (or purgatory).

He also taught His disciples (us ) to pray: “Deliver us from evil.” We do not seek out evil so as to deliver ourselves from it. We keep our eyes fixed on Christ – “As the hands a maid are on her mistress, so our eyes are fixed on the Lord” – and He who sees the evils that might assail us on every side delivers us from them.

How are your eyes fixed on Christ when they are buried in the pages of Harry Potter?

 

[estesbob]

I guess reading Harry Dresden books is verboten also?

 

[styrgwillidar]

I swore I would never get involved in another Harry Potter thread but here I am? Got any extra popcorn

Same here. Just a summary of the actual point of the book.

However, there was one thread that took an interesting turn right about the time it hit the limit for posts that would have been interesting to continue.

One poster, can’t remember their name, took the position that it was not anything in the HP series in terms of theme, plot, or characterization that made it objectionable. It was that the quality of writing was so poor. That poster’s contention was that the proliferation of ‘low-quality’ works distracted from and inhibited children accessing, reading and being able to appreciate well written works. ‘Dumbing down the culture’.

It started to turn to a discussion of what made a work ‘quality’, how much of a work is actually brought into it by the audience, how can one judge or assess quality unless they read a broad swath of literature to be exposed to differences, or understand themes without a broad background as well. If Rowling’s work encourages reading in young adults and exposes them to Christian themes so overtly (one of the criticisms of the work and why I don’t think it will be over rated highly), will it lead them to works like LOTR and the Narnia series and equip them to better look for and see the underlying Christian themes where they aren’t as apparent.

I see this in CCD where, if children aren’t familiar already with some basic things like- He who loves his life in this world will lose it for eternity-- they won’t see it in the literature or art to which they’re exposed. Surprisingly, not a small number of kids in 7th/8th grade still do not understand the real presence and will say the Eucharist is only symbolic and just bread. So, I think discussions which can touch on current cultural influences and point to both negative and positive aspects are worthwhile.

 

[jilly4ski]

Don’t mess with Harry Potter. According to Fr.Chad Ripperger who is pretty spot on and an exorcist, the Harry Potter books use the names of real Demons. We do not want to provoke the real names of Demons unless we know what we are doing, and most do not. Also not all, but some of the spells said in the series are real spells. What Catholic in their right mind would want to read or say demon names and real spells. There are better books to read and movies to watch.

Here is Fr.Ripperger’s part one of two talk on demons, it is very good and early on he talks about Harry Potter.
youtube.com/watch?v=A5ZuP2itfy4

His talk on gaurdian angels is really good too.

Umm, did anyone else actually go and listen to this talk? Apparently an exorcist told him that names (no examples of which names) are names are of actual demons. No first hand knowledge, no examples, no explanation, just an appeal to an unnamed un-sourced authority. Then he goes on to say that some of the spells in Harry Potter are real, his only “proof” here was some lady in Spain somehow used the fire spell in HP to burn her house down. Umm what, that is not how spells work. There is no calling of demons in the HP spells. The spell for fire in HP is “Incendio” the Latin verb to set on fire is “incendere” latin.cactus2000.de/showverb.en.php?verb=incendere there is no form with the “io” but it is pretty close, unless you are suggesting that Latin is really just witchcraft?

 

[Gertabelle]

“Be sober and watch: because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, goeth about seeking whom he may devour.”

1 Peter 5

The Prince of the Apostles tells us that to follow Christ we must constantly be on guard. The devil will not stop trying to steal our soul’s until the moment we draw our last breath and by God’s grace are borne away by Holy Angels to heaven (or purgatory).

How are your eyes fixed on Christ when they are buried in the pages of Harry Potter?

Goodness me, dear! So you plan to fight the devil yourself? Is that what you think Our Lord was telling His disciples in that verse? Goodness, no thank you! Personally, I’ll let Jesus and the Holy Angels fight those sorts of battles for me.

I am not a cloistered nun – well, not anymore. I was a postulant and novice in a contemplative monastery for just over two years in the way back long ago…but I digress…

Yup, I live in the world. And I teach in a public school in the inner city – talk about a battle ground! Our school community consists of parents who own or perform in strip clubs, who are gang members and drug dealers, who have committed violence such as murder or attempted murder, who brandish evil-glorifying tattoos and t-shirts, who are gay or lesbian couples, who have four different children from four different fathers, who have criminally abused/molested/neglected their own beautiful children…

How are my eyes fixed on Christ? Through prayer. Through sacrifice. Through service of Christ in His little ones. Through self-discipline. Through chastity. Through the frequent reception of the sacraments of confession and the Eucharist.

And yes, I do gasp read the books that my students are reading – Harry Potter, Percy Jackson, and a host of other non-Catholic books and book series.

Jesus tells us to be “wise as serpents, but innocent as doves” (Mt 10:16). This is impossible on my own, but if I follow the example of St Therese of Lisieux, and become very little, then Jesus can carry me through this battlefield. My experiences have made me wise as a serpent in the ways of this world, and He will keep me as innocent as a dove, so long as I cooperate with His grace.

I am sorry that you are put off by my refusal to agree that HP is some sort of gateway to hell. I work in a world that has so much real, raw, out-loud-and-proud evil (I sometimes have to avert my eyes from some of those horrible tattoos ) – a children’s book series that has nothing to do with reality just doesn’t make the list of soul-endangering things to be avoided.

And by the way, I wrote to the Carmelite nuns in my area asking them to pray for my school a couple years ago – when a dad murdered his wife and then took his own life in front of his children! – and one of the sisters wrote back assuring me of their ongoing prayers. And the abbess of the Benedictine monastery gave me two blessed St Benedict medals – one to wear and one to keep in my classroom to protect us from evil.

So I do take evil very, very seriously. I just don’t go looking for it – it seems to find us on a regular basis, and in ways that absolutely destroy lives and souls.

I need to be done here for today. There is real work to be done…

God bless and keep each and every one of you!

 

[Lou2U]

Also not all, but some of the spells said in the series are real spells.

They’re made up words based off Latin and other languages.

The names of many of the spells are indeed derived from other languages, especially Latin. However, for the most part, they aren’t proper words. Author J.K. Rowling created words that resemble other words with real meanings.

http://blog.dictionary.com/harry-potter-spells/

There are no “real spells”.

Lou

 

[twf]

“Be sober and watch: because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, goeth about seeking whom he may devour.”

1 Peter 5

The Prince of the Apostles tells us that to follow Christ we must constantly be on guard. The devil will not stop trying to steal our soul’s until the moment we draw our last breath and by God’s grace are borne away by Holy Angels to heaven (or purgatory).

How are your eyes fixed on Christ when they are buried in the pages of Harry Potter?

Because Harry Potter is an explicitly Christian story, full of Christian imagery and symbolism, as explicitly stated by the author herself, with ZERO parallels to the occult as I and others intimately familiar with the texts have posted again and again with specific examples. I’m not convinced that either of these exorcists have made a study of the texts…they heard the terms “witch” and “wizard” and ran with it. Until someone can go through the texts and show me the Occult elements, the only argument that is repeated again and again is “they use the term wizard and witch”. Someone claimed real demons are cited in the texts…as someone who has read through them multiple times that’s simply a flat out lie…there’s no conjuring, no invocations, no demon like creatures of any sort in the fictional world of Harry Potter. Others have claimed it shows young normal children how to obtain occult powers…another flat out lie as the magic of Harry Potter is a natural ability some are born with (and which normal children can never obtain - as noted multiple times in the thread this is essential to the plot). Its a Christian story. It inspires me to meditate on the death and resurrection of Christ and His victory over Satan. The shed blood of Christ is the inspiration of a central theme of the story. The central theme of the story: there is no greater love than to lay down one’s life for another.
Do you know that it isn’t only fundamentalist Christians who rally against Harry Potter? Some atheists have also complained because the Christian allegory because so obvious, so in your face, by the 7th and final book. Rowling has stated that she didn’t speak of the Christian allegory aspect until after the 7th book was published as she didn’t want to give the story away… since the ultimate resolution is that our hero, full of charity and love for his friends, lays down his life, rises again, and is victorious over the dark lord. Scripture is quoted more than once. A careful reading can only inspire meditation on Christian themes…it does exactly what Tolkien says any good fairy tale should in his famous essay “On Faerie Stories”.

 

[styrgwillidar]

… lays down his life, rises again, and is victorious over the dark lord.

…
.

Which I would say is actually the anti-climax. Because at that point we’ve learned it doesn’t matter whether Harry is victorious or not in this world. That’s the point, it doesn’t matter who wins in this world in the temporary conflicts of life.

Because, as he hovered between life and death and asked whether he should continue living, he’s told he ‘can go on to the next life’, soul intact, or he can go on with his life on earth. That he MAY be able to prevent much suffering, no guarantee. But he’s told he need no longer fear death as he’s seen that living with love will preserve his soul. He’s seen the wretched condition of Voldemort’s soul and understands that whether Voldermort wins or loses on earth, without true remorse and repentance he has lost for eternity.

ETA: In a way, we learn that death has been destroyed as an enemy as Voldemort sees it ‘The last enemy to be destroyed is death’, and transformed into the friend of the folk tale, waiting for us and that we should be prepared spiritually to greet.

 

[CB_Catholic]

Two articles to read and consider when evaluating what Fr. Amaoth, ( who is apparently NOT the chief exorcist of the Vatican, as that position does not exist, but is an exorcist in the Diocese of Rome, one of several) has written. The people writing these articles are Jimmy Akin, Catholic apologist, and Dr. Edward Peters, canon lawyer, not exactly uneducated fly by night journalists. I do not claim these people have any authority, or the final word, just something to help one discern things.

You can draw your own conclusions.

jimmyakin.typepad.com/defensor_fidei/2006/08/hes_baaaaaaaack.html

canonlaw.info/a_amorth.htm

 

[Sarcelle]

I guess reading Harry Dresden books is verboten also?

I guess so.

I read both Harry Dresden books and Harry Potter books.

To my knowledge, I have not yet been demon possessed. At least to the best of my knowledge.

 

[R_H_Benson]

Another reason why Harry Potter has no place in a Catholic home: The entire plot of Harry Potter is based upon the moral pitfall that the “ends justify the means”. Sorcery is gravely immoral. Harry Potter is a sorcerer who uses sorcery to defeat another sorcerer. He spends years at school learning to become a sorcerer. He employs intrinsic evil to fight intrinsic evil. All magic/ sorcery - “white” or “black” - is a grave offense against Almighty God. To give our children the impression that magic can be employed for the purpose of good encourages them to embrace the “ends justify the means” fallacy.

 

[Gertabelle]

Two articles to read and consider when evaluating what Fr. Amaoth, ( who is apparently NOT the chief exorcist of the Vatican, as that position does not exist, but is an exorcist in the Diocese of Rome, one of several) has written. The people writing these articles are Jimmy Akin, Catholic apologist, and Dr. Edward Peters, canon lawyer, not exactly uneducated fly by night journalists. I do not claim these people have any authority, or the final word, just something to help one discern things.

You can draw your own conclusions.

jimmyakin.typepad.com/defensor_fidei/2006/08/hes_baaaaaaaack.html

canonlaw.info/a_amorth.htm

From the second website, I post a quote by Dr Edward Peters, the canon lawyer who runs the site:

“In an August 2006 radio interview, Fr. Amorth announced his conclusion that Hitler and Stalin were possessed; in fact, said Amorth, all Nazi’s were possessed, after all, just look at all the evil things they did. Oh really? What about all Communists? Or what about, say, just Mao Tse-tung, or Pol Pot? Golly, what about Genghis Khan? At what point does one’s evil behavior become synonymous with possession? I don’t doubt but that Satan had a field day with Nazis and Communists—and the influence of the occult on Nazis especially, is well documented—but Fr. Amorth’s latest sweeping, quite debatable, and generally confusion-sparking conclusions are just more evidence that, whatever skills he might have as an exorcist, he is not a reliable spokesman on possession and exorcism.”

 

[pensmama87]

Another reason why Harry Potter has no place in a Catholic home: The entire plot of Harry Potter is based upon the moral pitfall that the “ends justify the means”. Sorcery is gravely immoral. Harry Potter is a sorcerer who uses sorcery to defeat another sorcerer. He spends years at school learning to become a sorcerer. He employs intrinsic evil to fight intrinsic evil. All magic/ sorcery - “white” or “black” - is a grave offense against Almighty God. To give our children the impression that magic can be employed for the purpose of good encourages them to embrace the “ends justify the means” fallacy.

Actually, it’s quite the opposite. Pretty much exactly the opposite, clearly stated.

You are aware he does not commune with the devil to use magic, right? That it’s an inborn ability/talent that he develops through education and study, just like an athletic or musical talent?

 

[Sarcelle]

Another reason why Harry Potter has no place in a Catholic home: The entire plot of Harry Potter is based upon the moral pitfall that the “ends justify the means”. Sorcery is gravely immoral. Harry Potter is a sorcerer who uses sorcery to defeat another sorcerer. He spends years at school learning to become a sorcerer. He employs intrinsic evil to fight intrinsic evil. All magic/ sorcery - “white” or “black” - is a grave offense against Almighty God. To give our children the impression that magic can be employed for the purpose of good encourages them to embrace the “ends justify the means” fallacy.

Harry Potter was born in a fictional world where some people are born with magical abilities. He did not go consorting with demons to get powers. I do not see why people do not even factor this in their objections.

I can repeat the spells written in there and guess what, nothing happens.

 

[jilly4ski]

Another reason why Harry Potter has no place in a Catholic home: The entire plot of Harry Potter is based upon the moral pitfall that the “ends justify the means”. Sorcery is gravely immoral. Harry Potter is a sorcerer who uses sorcery to defeat another sorcerer. He spends years at school learning to become a sorcerer. He employs intrinsic evil to fight intrinsic evil. All magic/ sorcery - “white” or “black” - is a grave offense against Almighty God. To give our children the impression that magic can be employed for the purpose of good leads them to embrace the “ends justify the means” fallacy.

Can you define magic and sorcery? Because the way you are using it (as an intrinsic evil that is forbidden because you gain power from calling on and making pacts with demons) is not the way magic and sorcery is used in the books (or indeed in most fantasy like LOTR). As far as I am aware, no one in the real world has innate abilities to control our physical world with strong emotions or by saying a specific word while waving a wand (which can’t exist because creatures like unicorns and phoenixes don’t exist).

 

[ToeInTheWater]

All magic/ sorcery - “white” or “black” - is a grave offense against Almighty God. To give our children the impression that magic can be employed for the purpose of good leads them to embrace the “ends justify the means” fallacy.

I’m not going to argue with this, BUT if you are using that criteria, then works such as LOTR or the Narnia tales don’t meet the cut, either. Magic is indeed used for good in both tales. I suppose one could argue that for LOTR, the “magic” of Gandalf and the other angel equivalents can be defended as authorized by the God-figure, but what about the “magic” of the elves? The elves are “immortal” but are not presented as actual angelic beings.

 

[R_H_Benson]

Actually, it’s quite the opposite. Pretty much exactly the opposite, clearly stated.

You are aware he does not commune with the devil to use magic, right? That it’s an inborn ability/talent that he develops through education and study, just like an athletic or musical talent?

We are all born with the inclination to sin. Does that mean we should sin? No. Sorcery - even if we are “born as a sorcerer” - is a grave sin if it is acted upon.

 

[R_H_Benson]

I’m not going to argue with this, BUT if you are using that criteria, then works such as LOTR or the Narnia tales don’t meet the cut, either. Magic is indeed used for good in both tales. I suppose one could argue that for LOTR, the “magic” of Gandalf and the other angel equivalents can be defended as authorized by the God-figure, but what about the “magic” of the elves? The elves are “immortal” but are not presented as actual angelic beings.

In LOTR magic is always referred to as a power that is not natural to man and is always seeking to corrupt him. The characters in LOTR - even the powerful wizard Gandalf - is shy to use his magical abilities for this reason.