Harry Potter

[Verita]

Magic always comes from satan, never from God–never, which goes to the very essense of the point I am making.

That is not true.

What is magic? Is it not merely a display of power that has a supernatural source? Miracles performed by Saints are magical in that sense, but they are not evil because the supernatural source is God. If the supernatural source is Satan or a demon, then it is evil. As I said, the Catholic understanding of good and evil is that NOTHING is inherently good because God created everything and he cannot create something evil. It is where we get power and what we do with it that makes it evil.

 

[Verita]

This magic came from J K Rowling…

BTW-I finished Prisioner of Azkaban last night and started Goblet of Fire-my second time through. I think the Order of the Phoenix was the is the best of the lot.

You’ve got to be kidding. Half Blood Prince is undoubtedly the best.

 

[estesbob]

You’ve got to be kidding. Half Blood Prince is undoubtedly the best.

NO WAY!!! I thught that was the weakest!

 

[Tom317]

This magic came from JK Rowling…

BTW-I finished Prisioner of Azkaban last night and started Goblet of Fire-my second time through. I think the Order of the Phoenix was the is the best of the lot.

Magic is real, satan is real, sometimes people do fall into evil traps set by satan. You can deny that all you want and it won’t change anything. You can deny what a past Cardinal (current Pope) said, you can deny what the Chief Exorcist has now said twice, you can deny the clear prohibitions in the Bible against the use of sorcery and divination (quite obviously present in HP). You deny all of that and much more under the justification that it is merely fiction and it is harmless entertainment.

Yet, let me pose this question: Would you personally expose a baby or a young child to repeated second hand smoke? The evidence that second hand smoke harms people is questionable at best, so exposing the baby/child to that second smoke is not very likely to hurt the person, yet would you do that, would you expose the child to second hand smoke? If not, then why would you expose a child to HP, even if you think the possible damage to the child’s soul is remote? After all, if there is even the slightest chance of the child’s soul being harmed, isn’t it worth it to take the cautious approach? Isn’t the word of a past Cardinal (now current Pope) and the Chief Exorcist in Rome (twice), along with God’s words against sorcery and divination enough to make you realize that there is at least a very slight risk? And, if there is even a very slight risk, why take it for the sake of entertainment?

I think most people would be more concerned about second hand smoke and the temporal body of the child, then they are about the health of the child’s eternal soul. Very sad indeed.

 

[Verita]

NO WAY!!! I thught that was the weakest!

What is wrong with you? It was incredible! The insight into Voldemort’s past and his transformation, the shocking revelations about Snape, the introduction of the Horcrux mystery, the… err, maybe I shouldn’t spoil it for others. Granted the “snogging” got old fast, but the rest was amazing. OOTP is probably my least favorite.

 

[Tom317]

That is not true.

What is magic? Is it not merely a display of power that has a supernatural source? Miracles performed by Saints are magical in that sense, but they are not evil because the supernatural source is God. If the supernatural source is Satan or a demon, then it is evil. As I said, the Catholic understanding of good and evil is that NOTHING is inherently good because God created everything and he cannot create something evil. It is where we get power and what we do with it that makes it evil.

Respectfully, this is just flat wrong. Magic (sorcery) never comes from God, is comes from satan and only satan. I see now why so many people think HP is okay, they do not understand that sorcery is condemned by God and does not come from Him. HP is fictional, so the magic in it is not real, yet the use of that sorcery is real and can lead people to want to invoke real life magic, which does in absolute fact come from satan, not God.

 

[Verita]

Magic is real, satan is real, sometimes people do fall into evil traps set by satan. You can deny that all you want and it won’t change anything. You can deny what a past Cardinal (current Pope) said, you can deny what the Chief Exorcist has now said twice, you can deny the clear prohibitions in the Bible against the use of sorcery and divination (quite obviously present in HP). You deny all of that and much more under the justification that it is merely fiction and it is harmless entertainment.

The Pope never read the books and was only making a judgement based on what someone else told him. Disappointing in a man so obviously brilliant. I don’t know about this exorcist, but from what it said on Wikipedia he sounds a bit mental.

 

[sasafr]

HP, on the other hand, uses magic supposedly for the good, yet sometimes it is hard to see the clear good/bad lines in those tales.

Just a quick point, in life it is not always clear who is good and who is bad. Politicians who seem to be good turn out to be corrupt. People who are upstanding citizens can be the ones who at home are abusing their spouse of their children. IMP Harry Potter is suppose to seem more real, that is part of the reason why so many children enjoy reading the stories. Furthermore, all of the truely evil characters have the Dark Mark, Voldermort’s symbol. It is a way to identify them. Part of the reason why I liked the Harry Potter books were that the good and evil lines were not as cut and dry as most other fantasy novels. With every action people choose to do good or to be evil, and the books show that point well.

 

[estesbob]

What is wrong with you? It was incredible! The insight into Voldemort’s past and his transformation, the shocking revelations about Snape, the introduction of the Horcrux mystery, the… err, maybe I shouldn’t spoil it for others. Granted the “snogging” got old fast, but the rest was amazing. OOTP is probably my least favorite.

What-the massive wand fight at the end??? Dumbledort confronts Voldernmot? Umbridge takes over!!! Cleary the best(and not a lot of snogging either)

 

[Verita]

Respectfully, this is just flat wrong. Magic (sorcery) never comes from God, is comes from satan and only satan. I see now why so many people think HP is okay, they do not understand that sorcery is condemned by God and does not come from Him. HP is fictional, so the magic in it is not real, yet the use of that sorcery is real and can lead people to want to invoke real life magic, which does in absolute fact come from satan, not God.

Magic:

1. the use of means believed to have supernatural power over natural forces
2. an extraordinary power or influence seemingly from a supernatural source

This also describes those miracles, as I have said before, performed by God through Saints. Magic is just another name for power that is not of ourselves that does things we cannot explain. EVERYTHING in this world has it’s origin in God. Satan cannot create he can only distort. And God cannot make anything evil. Power in itsself is not evil. As I’ve said before it is how you get it and what you do with it that makes it evil. This is clearly what the Catholic Church teaches. The view that anything is inherently evil is blatantly unCatholic.

 

[lotusblossom]

Hello everybody! I just have one little question to ask. I was wondering if seeing the Harry Potter movies would be wrong. I know that all the witchcraft and nonsense in the movie is against the Church but I want to see the movie just out of curiousity to what its about. MANY of my very Catholic friends have seen it and said it was an entertaining movie. What do you think?

Horsegirl15 -

I would say use your own judgement. I don’t think you’re going to go to hell or anything for watching them. Personally, I never picked up the books or watched the movies. I have had no interest in them and if they’re so controversial, I’d rather err on the side of being safe and find alternatives, which there are plenty when it comes to the world of reading and watching movies (although less in the movie area unfortunately).

I personally will never own or rent either; my husband owned the books, but when we got married, he left them at his parents’ house and agreed not to bring them or introduce them to our children in the future.

I’d also suggest you read Michael O’Brien’s A Landscape with Dragons, which does not talk about Harry Potter exclusively, but may give you some insight into why some posters are saying what they’re saying.

God bless!

 

[Tom317]

The Pope never read the books and was only making a judgement based on what someone else told him. Disappointing in a man so obviously brilliant. I don’t know about this exorcist, but from what it said on Wikipedia he sounds a bit mental.

Wow, you are going to say the Cardinals opinion is invalid because he did not read the books (which btw we do not know is true), and you are also going to spit in the face of the Vatican Chief Exorcist on the strength of something written in the very weak and often wrong Wikipedia site?

And, you do not see anything wrong with that? And you do not see anything foul about you defending the HP stories containing sorecy, divination, magic, etc…against the Cardinal and Rome’s Chief Exorcist and for that matter the Bible?

Wow–that is all I can say–wow.

 

[Tom317]

Magic:

1. the use of means believed to have supernatural power over natural forces
2. an extraordinary power or influence seemingly from a supernatural source

This also describes those miracles, as I have said before, performed by God through Saints. Magic is just another name for power that is not of ourselves that does things we cannot explain. EVERYTHING in this world has it’s origin in God. Satan cannot create he can only distort. And God cannot make anything evil. Power in itsself is not evil. As I’ve said before it is how you get it and what you do with it that makes it evil. This is clearly what the Catholic Church teaches. The view that anything is inherently evil is blatantly unCatholic.

I am at a point where I think I can start becoming quite uncaritable, so I am going disconnect from our talk before I do.

Thanks for the chat.

 

[Verita]

Wow, you are going to say the Cardinals opinion is invalid because he did not read the books (which btw we do not know is true), and you are also going to spit in the face of the Vatican Chief Exorcist on the strength of something written in the very weak and often wrong Wikipedia site?

And, you do not see anything wrong with that? And you do not see anything foul about you defending the HP stories containing sorecy, divination, magic, etc…against the Cardinal and Rome’s Chief Exorcist and for that matter the Bible?

Wow–that is all I can say–wow.

I’m not spitting in anyone’s face. I’m not making a final judgement based on Wikipedia (honestly this man couldn’t matter less to me) but just saying what occurred to me when I read his words about Harry Potter.

And no, I don’t see anything wrong with disagreeing with them. It’s not as if an infallible opinion has been declared and Popes, Cardinals and exorcists can be just as wrong as your average Joe. God isn’t guiding them about Harry Potter.

And yes, I do think that anyone who hasn’t actually read the books doesn’t really have a valid opinion. They are unfamiliar with the material and have no right making judgements about it.

 

[Tom317]

I’m not spitting in anyone’s face. I’m not making a final judgement based on Wikipedia (honestly this man couldn’t matter less to me) but just saying what occurred to me when I read his words about Harry Potter.

And no, I don’t see anything wrong with disagreeing with them. It’s not as if an infallible opinion has been declared and Popes, Cardinals and exorcists can be just as wrong as your average Joe. God isn’t guiding them about Harry Potter.

And yes, I do think that anyone who hasn’t actually read the books doesn’t really have a valid opinion. They are unfamiliar with the material and have no right making judgements about it.

Have you ever used cocaine?

Have you ever aborted a child?

Have you ever murdered someone?

Have you ever…

Have you ever…

You better not say anything about anything that you have not personally experienced, because unless you personally expereience it you have no valid opinion, even if outside sources have strong verfiable opinions.

 

[Verita]

What-the massive wand fight at the end??? Dumbledort confronts Voldernmot? Umbridge takes over!!! Cleary the best(and not a lot of snogging either)

I’m not saying the book wasn’t fantastic compared to most of the drivel that gets published lately, but it did tend to drag on. Compared to the others in the series, it’s probably my least favorite.

 

[Tom317]

From the Catechism:

2117 All practices of magic or sorcery, by which one attempts to tame occult powers, **so as to place them at one’s service and have a supernatural power over others - even if this were for the sake of restoring their health - are gravely contrary to the virtue of religion. **These practices are even more to be condemned when accompanied by the intention of harming someone, or when they have recourse to the intervention of demons. Wearing charms is also reprehensible. Spiritism often implies divination or magical practices; the Church for her part warns the faithful against it. Recourse to so-called traditional cures does not justify either the invocation of evil powers or the exploitation of another’s credulity.

1852 There are a great many kinds of sins. Scripture provides several lists of them. The Letter to the Galatians contrasts the works of the flesh with the fruit of the Spirit: "Now the works of the flesh are plain: fornication, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, factions, envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the Kingdom of God."

2116 All forms of divination are to be rejected: recourse to Satan or demons, conjuring up the dead or other practices falsely supposed to “unveil” the future. Consulting horoscopes, astrology, palm reading, interpretation of omens and lots, the phenomena of clairvoyance, and recourse to mediums all conceal a desire for power over time, history, and, in the last analysis, other human beings, as well as a wish to conciliate hidden powers. They contradict the honor, respect, and loving fear that we owe to God alone.

 

[Rand_Al_Thor]

Have you ever used cocaine?

Have you ever aborted a child?

Have you ever murdered someone?

Have you ever…

Have you ever…

You better not say anything about anything that you have not personally experienced, because unless you personally expereience it you have no valid opinion, even if outside sources have strong verfiable opinions.

Pax tecum!

None of those are valid comparisons. If someone is commenting on the content of a book and has not read the book (and from their comment they are wrong about what is in the book), then no, they are not qualified to speak on the book. That is quite different than murder, which is a violation of the Natural Law. You don’t have to murder someone to know it’s wrong. Reading Harry Potter is not something that is condemned by the Natural Law, so the comparison to killing someone is ridiculous.

In Christ,
Rand

 

[Tom317]

Pax tecum!

None of those are valid comparisons. If someone is commenting on the content of a book and has not read the book (and from their comment they are wrong about what is in the book), then no, they are not qualified to speak on the book. That is quite different than murder, which is a violation of the Natural Law. You don’t have to murder someone to know it’s wrong. Reading Harry Potter is not something that is condemned by the Natural Law, so the comparison to killing someone is ridiculous.

In Christ,
Rand

The point is that it is a purely ridiculous position to say a person cannot discern whether a book is good only by reading it. If that logic is sound, then it applies to a plethora of other situations and it would completely tied the hands of millions of people by forcing them to read everything rather then being able to rely on trsutworthy opinions. In other words, perfectly clear and fairly short summaries are routinely used to make decisions of huge importance every day for all sorts of matters. One can rely upon trustworthy sources to give them sound summaries of almost any topic, if not then encyclopedias are a waste of time, people would have to read entire books on various subjects to be “worthy” of an opinion. Further, many people know that cocaine is a very bad thing, medical community and personal use accounts tell us so, those are reliable and trustworthy sources that help us know using cocaine is a bad thing. Yet, if we use the read/experience yourself only rule, then one would have to use concaine to find out it is bad.

HP has been read and viewed by millions, and there are a ton of sound articles and summaries both pro and con that people can use to discern its worth.

If the “must read it yourself” rule applied then every single Catholic should have read the Dav Vinci Code because in that world no person has a valid or trustworthy opinion.

Finally, if we stick to a rule of “you must read and interpret it yourself,” then none of us should consider the Church’s view of the Bible as having any more meaning then our own, which btw is the Protestant model…it is a model that everyone must be their own self interpreter of everything.

 

[Tom317]

Pax tecum!

None of those are valid comparisons. If someone is commenting on the content of a book and has not read the book (and from their comment they are wrong about what is in the book), then no, they are not qualified to speak on the book. That is quite different than murder, which is a violation of the Natural Law. You don’t have to murder someone to know it’s wrong. Reading Harry Potter is not something that is condemned by the Natural Law, so the comparison to killing someone is ridiculous.

In Christ,
Rand

Further,

No Catholics should ever again purchase books written by Dr. Scott Hahn, or Mark Shea or Karl Keating, et al, because those people simply write their views of the faith and of the Bible–yet under the “must read it yourself rule” our own views are the only ones that matter, all others are not worthy of our attention, not even if it comes from a Chief Exorcist, or a former Cardinal, now the current Pope. In fact, using this same logic, perhaps liberal Catholics are correct about a whole ist of things because their personal views are what is important and no other view matters.