Harry Potter?!?

[Tom317]

Don’t have any children…I’m 16.

However, there are certain differences between HP and LOTR. For instance, in LOTR the good characters do not cast spells on people…only on objects. They invoke the aid of angel-like figures, including one who greatly resembles the Blessed Mother.

Harry does cast spells on people. He is a character in a realistic world (unlike LOTR). I don’t doubt that he exhibits Christian morals and means well. However, casting spells is serious stuff.

In the Chronicles of Narnia, none of the children are encouraged to use magic and, when they do, the consequences are obvious.

So your answer is yes. Thank you. That is all you needed to say.

 

[puzzleannie]

Ok a quick question. What do you think about teens reading Harry Potter? I have read them up to now, but heard that they have been banned by the Vaticanh

please do not make such dramatic statements without link or reliable source to cite. no such ban has ever been issued. Search on Harry Potter and find endless, poinless discussion here on your question.

 

[Melissa]

So, a person who deals with evil on a regular basis is not worth listening to, but uniformed laity are worthy?

Now that makes a ton os sense.

I think it is less a matter of dismissing Fr. Amorth’s expertise on evil (which I do not), but more a matter of recognizing that Fr. Amorth does not have expertise regarding the content of the HP books. In fact, the opinion he expressed betrays a complete ignorance of the content of the books beyond the fact that certain keywords are present without ascertaining whether said keywords mean the same thing in HP as they do IRL.

I am personally far more disturbed by the anti-HP group’s willingness to outright lie and/or deliberately misconstrue information–such as the claim that the Pope condemned the books when the fact is that while still Cardinal, the man now our Holy Father made a personal (i.e., not while acting in his capacity for the Church even then) favorable comment on a book written by someone who disapproves of the content of HP. The same people who are so upset about ends-means in HP (while completely misconstruing the whole world set-up in the novels) are willing to use some very unethical means to achieve the end of claiming “HP novels are bad”.

Literary criticism–they are neither the best nor the worst written books in the library. As far as the content, you know the old saying: de gustibus non est disputandum.

 

[Tom317]

I think it is less a matter of dismissing Fr. Amorth’s expertise on evil (which I do not), but more a matter of recognizing that Fr. Amorth does not have expertise regarding the content of the HP books. In fact, the opinion he expressed betrays a complete ignorance of the content of the books beyond the fact that certain keywords are present without ascertaining whether said keywords mean the same thing in HP as they do IRL.

I am personally far more disturbed by the anti-HP group’s willingness to outright lie and/or deliberately misconstrue information–such as the claim that the Pope condemned the books when the fact is that while still Cardinal, the man now our Holy Father made a personal (i.e., not while acting in his capacity for the Church even then) favorable comment on a book written by someone who disapproves of the content of HP. The same people who are so upset about ends-means in HP (while completely misconstruing the whole world set-up in the novels) are willing to use some very unethical means to achieve the end of claiming “HP novels are bad”.

Literary criticism–they are neither the best nor the worst written books in the library. As far as the content, you know the old saying: de gustibus non est disputandum.

This notion that statements need to be made infallibly to hold any worth is nonsense imo. Father Amorth is both a Priest and was the chief exorcist, I would say his views hold far more worth than do ours, or for that matter more worth then nearly anyone else. He knows first hand how easy it is for people (and especially vulnerable children) to fall into a path to evil; he knows how evil works far better then almost all of us lay Catholics and he does not need to read the books fully to understand its overall content and make a comment.

I also find it disturbing that people will marginalize what the Pope said when he was still a Cardinal, after all he was a Cardinal and a very knowledable Cardinal and well placed to have a valid opinion about HP and many other matters.

It amazes me how far defenders of HP will go to dismiss holy men in order to appease their desire to read the books.

 

[Melissa]

You are deliberately misrepresenting what I said.

I did not say that the statement needed to be infallible for it to carry any worth. I do not expect the Church to make infallible statements regarding FICTION.

As I said, and I repeat, I do not dismiss Fr. Amorth’s expertise regarding evil. Having read the HP books myself, I DO say that his opinion reads as one who has been told about the books, but has never read them, that he is therefore working from mistaken premises which if the premises were true (but they are not), his conclusion would be correct. Since he does not have apparent knowledge of the actual content of HP, I do not accept his opinion that the HP books should be avoided while I do acknowledge that if the HP books had the content he appears to believe they do, I would agree with him.

And if you cannot see the intellectual dishonesty involved in making a headline “Pope Opposes Harry Potter” regarding personal letters (the content of which, if you actually read them, do not come anywhere near what the anti-HP group wishes they contained) written by then Cardinal Ratzinger … it is not dismissing his opinion (which is simply that–his personal opinion regarding a book about Harry Potter with no indication that he has actually read the novels, as I really doubt that a man with his responsibilities then and now would be reading juvenile/young adult fiction), The implication of the headline and article is clear that the Pope as Pope is making a statement regarding the novels, while the facts are that he did not make the statement as Pope nor was it any considered opinion about the novels, but rather the book about Harry Potter (and even at that, read the actual letters … it’s less a red light than a yellow at the most).

 

[Verita]

This notion that statements need to be made infallibly to hold any worth is nonsense imo. Father Amorth is both a Priest and was the chief exorcist, I would say his views hold far more worth than do ours, or for that matter more worth then nearly anyone else. He knows first hand how easy it is for people (and especially vulnerable children) to fall into a path to evil; he knows how evil works far better then almost all of us lay Catholics and he does not need to read the books fully to understand its overall content and make a comment.

I also find it disturbing that people will marginalize what the Pope said when he was still a Cardinal, after all he was a Cardinal and a very knowledable Cardinal and well placed to have a valid opinion about HP and many other matters.

It amazes me how far defenders of HP will go to dismiss holy men in order to appease their desire to read the books.

Anyone who hasn’t read the books has no right to pass judgement on them. It’s simple really. You cannot say whether a book is good or bad if you don’t actually know what is contained within its pages. This is being intellectually honest.

We are not to blindly follow the opinions of individual Church officials, even the Pope himself, if what they say contradicts established Church teaching. Popes in the past have privately taught heresy. The same is of course true of individual Priests. Father Amorth’s statements contradict the Catechism and that is why I do not trust his opinion. And he went much too far when he actually said that J.K. Rowling was being influenced by Satan when she writes her books. Unless he has met her and has some physical evidence for this accusation, then he has greatly wronged her.

 

[Tom317]

Anyone who hasn’t read the books has no right to pass judgement on them. It’s simple really. You cannot say whether a book is good or bad if you don’t actually know what is contained within its pages. This is being intellectually honest.

We are not to blindly follow the opinions of individual Church officials, even the Pope himself, if what they say contradicts established Church teaching. Popes in the past have privately taught heresy. The same is of course true of individual Priests. Father Amorth’s statements contradict the Catechism and that is why I do not trust his opinion. And he went much too far when he actually said that J.K. Rowling was being influenced by Satan when she writes her books. Unless he has met her and has some physical evidence for this accusation, then he has greatly wronged her.

Then it is okay for people to buy porn magazines or to rent known violent R rated movies because they need to view it themselves–right?

People can literally never rely upon a trusted source to give a thorough analysis of a subject–right?

The Pope himself must personally read and study every single issue he speaks on before he can make a statement, he cannot rely on trusted internal people to brief him on the hundreds of issue that pass his desk–right?

One must get an abortion to understand why a person gets and abortion, they cannot rely on personal feelings or the accounts of thousands of people who have gotten abortions–right?

 

[CathCentrist]

I agree. I will listen to the chief exorcist on this subject before I would listen to anyone else, except of coure the Pope. I know of no-one that deals with this stuff more then a chief exorcist. The problem is, many Catholics look at exorcism as a joke.

I dont look at exorcism as a joke - but what makes me laugh is an exorcist who claims to talk (do battle) with the devil on a DAILY BASIS? Not buying it. The devil was HIGHLY active before christ, but since the sacrifice, his power is greatly diminished when it comes to DAILY POSSESION. I aint buying it. If thats true then the DAILY sacrifice of the MASS truly has no power all over the world - And that I do not believe.

 

[Tom317]

I dont look at exorcism as a joke - but what makes me laugh is an exorcist who claims to talk (do battle) with the devil on a DAILY BASIS? Not buying it. The devil was HIGHLY active before christ, but since the sacrifice, his power is greatly diminished when it comes to DAILY POSSESION. I aint buying it. If thats true then the DAILY sacrifice of the MASS truly has no power all over the world - And that I do not believe.

The Bible tells us that the devil prowls across the world like a lion seeking the ruin of souls, and it also speaks of demons that need exorcising. Jesus cast out many demons, and so did the Apostles. I do not believe that the devil was only active when Jesus and His Apostles were here.

While it is true that Jesus has already won the victory, the devil’s power is not contained yet, he still has a finite amount of time to ruin souls and he is very busy doing exactly that.

 

[Tom317]

I dont look at exorcism as a joke - but what makes me laugh is an exorcist who claims to talk (do battle) with the devil on a DAILY BASIS? Not buying it. The devil was HIGHLY active before christ, but since the sacrifice, his power is greatly diminished when it comes to DAILY POSSESION. I aint buying it. If thats true then the DAILY sacrifice of the MASS truly has no power all over the world - And that I do not believe.

A follow-up

Pope Leo XIII in the 19th century felt so strongly about satan’s influence on souls, that he penned the Saint Michael Prayer and he installed the prayer during the low Mass, every low Mass said. In 1960 Pope John Paul XXIII made saying the prayer optional, yet Pope John Paul II encourage the use of the prayer on a regular basis. That is three Popes who have called for daily prayers to help protect us from the devil. Do not take the wiles of the devil so loosely, his ability to lead us down an evil path remains very strong indeed. I think the heartfelt belief in the devil, his demons, and hell are beliefs that have weakened in recent decades and that is to the eternal detriment of many souls…imo.

Saint Michael the Archangel, defend us in battle. Be our protection against the wickedness and snares of the devil. May God rebuke him, we humbly pray; and do Thou, O Prince of the Heavenly Host — by the Divine Power of God — cast into hell Satan and all the evil spirits who roam throughout the world seeking the ruin of souls. Amen.

 

[AquinaSavio]

Note that you have based your conclusion that the magic in LOTR and Narnia is not evil on two things:

1. Where the magic comes from.
2. How it is used.

This is exactly how all magic should be judged. We should not assume that all magic is evil all the time by nature, as Father Amorth does, because NOTHING is inherently evil. It can only be evil based on where it came from, what was done to get it, and how it is used. If you apply those standard to Harry Potter you will see that the only evil magic in the books is that magic which is clearly labeled so, the magic that Harry and his allies fight against.

In this world, any kind of magic is evil. God does not use magic. There is no difference between “white magic” and “black magic.” They all have the same source: demonic influence. God works miracles…there is a big difference between the two.

You say that no thing is inherently evil…however, we’re not talking about things. Magic is an action on the part of demons, and actions can certainly be evil.

In LOTR it is natural that certain characters have magic because of their race. Gandalf uses “magic” because he is a Maia (though we don’t know that) and the Elves have “magic” as part of their very nature. This magic is endowed on them by their Creator, Eru, but in LOTR we don’t know that. You don’t know who Eru is or who the Valar are until you read the Silmarillion which most LOTR fans don’t because it’s a very difficult book.

However, you will admit that the distinction is there. Tolkien did explain his concepts…whether people read it or not is not his fault.

 

[AquinaSavio]

I dont look at exorcism as a joke - but what makes me laugh is an exorcist who claims to talk (do battle) with the devil on a DAILY BASIS? Not buying it. The devil was HIGHLY active before christ, but since the sacrifice, his power is greatly diminished when it comes to DAILY POSSESION. I aint buying it. If thats true then the DAILY sacrifice of the MASS truly has no power all over the world - And that I do not believe.

I don’t care if you don’t believe Fr. Amorth’s words. I do believe that many saints often exchanged words with demons. Many were even abused by them. These are the holiest people of their times and they had encounters with Satan. They went to Mass often and they still had encounters with Satan. The establishment of the Mass does not gaurantee freedom from Satan.

It sounds like you’re down-playing the devil’s affect upon people. After all, look at the effect he had on Eve. The wise men of the Church do not take the devil’s influence lightly.

 

[kangnamdragon]

I have heard that Harry Potter has gotten kids interested in learning Latin again.

 

[Verita]

In this world, any kind of magic is evil. God does not use magic. There is no difference between “white magic” and “black magic.” They all have the same source: demonic influence. God works miracles…there is a big difference between the two.

If one defines “magic” as “an extraordinary power or influence seemingly from a supernatural source”, which Merriam Webster does, then there is a distinction. “Miracle” is just another name for an event when this supernatural power does come directly from God. In our world, humans can act as a sort of channel for God’s power, performing miracles, or they can obtain power from evil sources by evil means for evil purposes. The only difference between the two is the source and how the power is used.

You say that no thing is inherently evil…however, we’re not talking about things. Magic is an action on the part of demons, and actions can certainly be evil.

We are talking about things. Magic is a noun. “Magic” as in “supernatural power” is most definetly a thing. Actions can be evil. But just because you get drunk and beat your wife does not make alcohol evil. Your action is evil, not the drink you abused.

However, you will admit that the distinction is there. Tolkien did explain his concepts…whether people read it or not is not his fault.

The distinction is not in the book, plain and simple. So that as a reader of LOTR you cannot know that elves have magical powers because Eru made them that way. Since you cannot know this, the magic appears to exist as simply as it does in HP. You cannot condemn one and not the other.

 

[Tom317]

If one defines “magic” as “an extraordinary power or influence seemingly from a supernatural source”, which Merriam Webster does, then there is a distinction. “Miracle” is just another name for an event when this supernatural power does come directly from God. In our world, humans can act as a sort of channel for God’s power, performing miracles, or they can obtain power from evil sources by evil means for evil purposes. The only difference between the two is the source and how the power is used.

We are talking about things. Magic is a noun. “Magic” as in “supernatural power” is most definetly a thing. Actions can be evil. But just because you get drunk and beat your wife does not make alcohol evil. Your action is evil, not the drink you abused.

The distinction is not in the book, plain and simple. So that as a reader of LOTR you cannot know that elves have magical powers because Eru made them that way. Since you cannot know this, the magic appears to exist as simply as it does in HP. You cannot condemn one and not the other.

The point is not about the magic, many books and movies use magic. The point is HP take place in what is described and looks to be the real world. LOTR is not, either is Narnia and neither is Wizard of Oz—in those stories there is never a doubt that the setting is not of this world.

There is plenty to object to about the use of evil to bring a good in HP, yet the main problem is its setting, not its premise.

The problem also does not lie with adults, who we all would hope can make an easy distinction between fantasy and reality. Children, the main target of the books by its marketers, can easily fall prey to thinking HP is how things should be, that using magic is fine in the real world because HP has it in its pages. It can easily water-down the sensitivity to evil that most adults already know exists. This is the area to which I think Father Amorth and Cardinal Ratzinger were the most concerned, that kids can be easily lead astray.

 

[Verita]

The point is not about the magic, many books and movies use magic. The point is HP take place in what is described and looks to be the real world. LOTR is not, either is Narnia and neither is Wizard of Oz—in those stories there is never a doubt that the setting is not of this world.

Yet this is the main bone of contention with your Father Amorth.

There is plenty to object to about the use of evil to bring a good in HP, yet the main problem is its setting, not its premise.

You have no right to make such an accusation since you have never read the books. If you cannot provide an example of a situation from the books in which the ends are used to justify the means (which I have asked to be provided in the past) then you must refrain from making baseless accusations. The fact is that this accusation is not true except of the story’s villains.

The problem also does not lie with adults, who we all would hope can make an easy distinction between fantasy and reality. Children, the main target of the books by its marketers, can easily fall prey to thinking HP is how things should be, that using magic is fine in the real world because HP has it in its pages. It can easily water-down the sensitivity to evil that most adults already know exists. This is the area to which I think Father Amorth and Cardinal Ratzinger were the most concerned, that kids can be easily lead astray.

And this is why I say that those opposed to HP grossly underestimate their children. You do not trust them. I have been reading such stories since my own childhood and never once have I thought the world was or should be anything other than what it is. Children have been told fairy stories for centuries and have always been able to tell the difference between the real world and the world of the story. It is this tendency to underestimate and distrust your children’s discernment that leads to such rebellion in adolescents.

 

[AquinaSavio]

If one defines “magic” as “an extraordinary power or influence seemingly from a supernatural source”, which Merriam Webster does, then there is a distinction. “Miracle” is just another name for an event when this supernatural power does come directly from God. In our world, humans can act as a sort of channel for God’s power, performing miracles, or they can obtain power from evil sources by evil means for evil purposes. The only difference between the two is the source and how the power is used.

Merriam Webster is not a theological work. In the spiritual world, magic is simply a word used to describe demonic work.

You say “The only differance between the two is the source of the power and how the power is used.” This is a big difference. God and demons are on opposite sides of the spiritual spectrum.

The way the power is used is not the issue. I do believe that magic can be used for good results, too.

We are talking about things. Magic is a noun. “Magic” as in “supernatural power” is most definetly a thing. Actions can be evil. But just because you get drunk and beat your wife does not make alcohol evil. Your action is evil, not the drink you abused.

Of course we’re talking about a noun…the noun is used to describe a demon’s evil actions…Just as lust is a noun and is used to describe sinful thoughts or desires.

The distinction is not in the book, plain and simple. So that as a reader of LOTR you cannot know that elves have magical powers because Eru made them that way. Since you cannot know this, the magic appears to exist as simply as it does in HP. You cannot condemn one and not the other.

I think a logical reader can conclude that the Elves and the Ainur are supernatural beings. They represent angels.

In HP, the characters are humans living in a realistic world.

 

[AquinaSavio]

And this is why I say that those opposed to HP grossly underestimate their children. You do not trust them. I have been reading such stories since my own childhood and never once have I thought the world was or should be anything other than what it is. Children have been told fairy stories for centuries and have always been able to tell the difference between the real world and the world of the story. It is this tendency to underestimate and distrust your children’s discernment that leads to such rebellion in adolescents.

I have no doubt that children reading these books with their parents realize the difference between good and evil. I don’t condemn the HP books. My goal is simply to point out dangerous aspects of the story. It does have a potential to stimulate unhealthy interest in the supernatural.

 

[Tom317]

Yet this is the main bone of contention with your Father Amorth.

You have no right to make such an accusation since you have never read the books. If you cannot provide an example of a situation from the books in which the ends are used to justify the means (which I have asked to be provided in the past) then you must refrain from making baseless accusations. The fact is that this accusation is not true except of the story’s villains.

I do not have to refrain from posting my views based on more then you realize. This is a free forum and we are posting our opinions about a piece garbage…oops I mean fiction.

And this is why I say that those opposed to HP grossly underestimate their children. You do not trust them.

Wrong! I do not trust satan. Perhaps you do?

 

[Tom317]

I have no doubt that children reading these books with their parents realize the difference between good and evil. I don’t condemn the HP books. My goal is simply to point out dangerous aspects of the story. It does have a potential to stimulate unhealthy interest in the supernatural.

I disagree. Young children are quite impressionable. All one has to do is to see how many HP costumes are worn every year during Halloween to have an idea of this truth. I have personally witnessed children who try to cast spells on other kids, and neighbor kids who have stated they think magic is cool and real, after having read the HP books. Father Amorth is quite right to be careful with these books, it can lead to dangerous paths. Now, does that mean it will hurt all kids, NO! In fact, I would guess the vast majority of kids are not greatly influenced by the books, yet considering many, many millions of kids have read those books, even if only 5% were impacted, that is a large number and it is a number that satan very much likes.