Harry's RCIA Progress

[Andruschak]

I would also recommend you give your RCIA journey more of a chance, Harry, though we continually remind our candidates and catechumens they are in no way obligated to become Catholics just because they’ve attended a few sessions.

God bless you,
Jeff, OPL

Well, I am more or less resigned to the long slog, including the Easter Vigil. I have no problem being baptised a third time, with the refusal to recognize the validity of my two previous baptisms. (Church of England 1944, Lutheran in 1959 prior to Confirmation)

But really, the only thing that keeps me this patient are the classes at catechismclass.com, where I am actually learning something five days a week

:dancing: :dancing: :dancing: :dancing: :dancing:

 

[lel]

RCIA is not all about YOU. You have classmates. They might not be as wonderful, brilliant, and saintly as you are. The teacher has to consider their needs, also.

Consider using the RCIA process to cultivate the virtue of patience, and to learn to think of others, as well as yourself.

Or as one of the group leaders told me this week, it’s the feast day of St. Francis, practice humility. (Patience isn’t my big thing either, can ya tell? )

 

[Jeff_Hale]

Harry, I can’t off the top of my head understand why either of your two previous baptisms wouldn’t be recognized, unless they aren’t documented. Both churches’ baptisms would be acceptable I would think, regardless of their dates. Maybe someone more knowledgable here can shed some light.

Jeff

 

[jlcasey]

Harry, I can’t off the top of my head understand why either of your two previous baptisms wouldn’t be recognized, unless they aren’t documented. Both churches’ baptisms would be acceptable I would think, regardless of their dates. Maybe someone more knowledgable here can shed some light.

Jeff

I would have to say the same - I was baptized in a swimming pool when I was 16yrs old in a pentecostal church. The Catholic Church recognized my baptism as valid. It wasn’t documented either - the parish where I was confirmed just called the pastor who did the baptism to confirm that I was in fact baptised and I knew the date and place. So I can’t see it being a problem for you.

 

[lel]

Harry, I can’t off the top of my head understand why either of your two previous baptisms wouldn’t be recognized, unless they aren’t documented. Both churches’ baptisms would be acceptable I would think, regardless of their dates. Maybe someone more knowledgable here can shed some light.

Jeff

It’s not valid if it isn’t documented?

 

[jmcrae]

Well, I am more or less resigned to the long slog, including the Easter Vigil. I have no problem being baptised a third time, with the refusal to recognize the validity of my two previous baptisms. (Church of England 1944, Lutheran in 1959 prior to Confirmation)

That makes absolutely no sense at all.

Just bring in a copy of your first Baptismal certificate (from 1944). We recognize all Trinitarian baptisms.

(That’s why I was totally confused when you said you were a Catechumen. A Catechumen is someone who has never before been baptized.)

 

[jmcrae]

It’s not valid if it isn’t documented?

What happens in that case is we have you go to First Confession just in case you were baptized before, and we give you a “conditional Baptism” just in case you weren’t. The wording is a bit different from a regular baptism - the priest or deacon will say, “If you have never before been baptized, then I baptize you …” etc.

So, you’ll get a double-whammy, in that case - but it’s mostly painless, and people who’ve had to do that said they were glad it worked out that way.

 

[lel]

But does that make you a candidate or a catechumen? I’m so confused about it.

Can I believe that I have been validly baptized already? If I have, I have to wait until reception into the Church before confession, don’t I?

 

[jmcrae]

But does that make you a candidate or a catechumen? I’m so confused about it.

Can I believe that I have been validly baptized already? If I have, I have to wait until reception into the Church before confession, don’t I?

Um - could you rephrase the question? I’m not sure what you’re asking.

Just to expand on what I was saying before:

For Candidates (people who have been baptized in another Christian tradition) First Confession takes place after the Call to Full Communion (which usually takes place during the first weekend of Lent in the year that you’re being received into the Church - this is where you are taken to meet the Bishop, and there is a whole ceremony that you do with him - this is where you receive permission to receive the Sacraments for the first time, meaning that now you are permitted to start going to Confession, and also to receive the Sacraments of Confirmation and First Holy Communion after you complete your period of Purification and Enlightenment) and before your Confirmation and First Holy Communion - so, somewhere during that six to eight week period, depending on whether they are joining the Catechumens at the Easter Vigil, or being received separately on the following Sunday.

Usually, there will be a time set aside during Lent after the Call to Full Communion where they will help you make an Examination of Conscience and help you set up an appointment with a priest.

Catechumens (never been baptized before) don’t have to go to Confession first, because Baptism washes away all of their sins. But we can only be validly baptized once. Catechumens would go to First Confession some time during the Mystagogia period of RCIA - the weeks after Easter, up until Pentecost. They would have their own preparation session for that some time during Mystagogia.

In the case where someone didn’t know if they had been baptized before, or if they thought they had but no evidence exists that they did, then they would be treated as a Candidate for the Sacrament of First Confession (meaning that it will take place during Lent and cover the entire lifetime of sins), and as a conditional Catechumen for the Sacraments of Initiation (meaning conditional Baptism, Confirmation, and First Holy Communion).

 

[Pug]

Well, I am more or less resigned to the long slog, including the Easter Vigil. I have no problem being baptised a third time, with the refusal to recognize the validity of my two previous baptisms. (Church of England 1944, Lutheran in 1959 prior to Confirmation)

Interesting. I didn’t know Lutherans would rebaptize in that case. I though at least ELCA wouldn’t.

Anyway, have they told you why they consider you to be a catechumen for RCIA?

 

[Andruschak]

Or as one of the group leaders told me this week, it’s the feast day of St. Francis, practice humility. (Patience isn’t my big thing either, can ya tell? )

In mmy daily rosary, my intentions for the 1st decade, as requested by the facilitator, are for my RCIA Class, that we may grow together spiritually.

However, I now add an old prayer from Alcoholics Anonymous (and I am sure it is far older then that)…Lord, put your arm around my shoulder and your hand over my mouth."

 

[Andruschak]

That makes absolutely no sense at all.

Just bring in a copy of your first Baptismal certificate (from 1944). We recognize all Trinitarian baptisms.

(That’s why I was totally confused when you said you were a Catechumen. A Catechumen is someone who has never before been baptized.)

According to the US Council of Bishops (see the link in my sinatore) I am not a catechuman. The reality is that the state of RCIA in the US is pathetic.

My copies of my two baptisimal certificated have been lost.

I was born 4 October 1944 in dartford, Kent, England, and baptised Church of England a few days later. But a lot of records from the era were distroyed by bombs, V1s, and V2s. So despite what my mother told them, the Lutheran church felt a need to do the job all over again before my confirmation. That certificate has also been lost (from my drinking days) and now what?

We only have my Mother’s word about my two Bapytisms. The local church doesnot consider that good enough

I’m not even going to bother and insist on a conditional baptism any more. If they want to treat me like a catechuman, fine, splash the water and let’s get on with it.

 

[Andruschak]

Interesting. I didn’t know Lutherans would rebaptize in that case. I though at least ELCA wouldn’t.

Anyway, have they told you why they consider you to be a catechumen for RCIA?

Because NOBODY in charge of RCIA programs in this area seems to have bothered reading what the US Council of Bishops had to say about it. I am thoroughly sick and tired of it all and will just put up with it.

I thank God and/or Mother Mary and/or my Guardian Angel and/or my Patron saint and/or whoever else it was that directed me to that catechismclass.com where I am actually learning something 5 days a week.

 

[jmcrae]

According to the US Council of Bishops (see the link in my sinatore) I am not a catechuman. The reality is that the state of RCIA in the US is pathetic.

My copies of my two baptisimal certificated have been lost.

I was born 4 October 1944 in dartford, Kent, England, and baptised Church of England a few days later. But a lot of records from the era were distroyed by bombs, V1s, and V2s. So despite what my mother told them, the Lutheran church felt a need to do the job all over again before my confirmation. That certificate has also been lost (from my drinking days) and now what?

Your Lutheran church should have the original record of your Lutheran baptismal certificate on file. Write to them and request a copy. There should be a notation on it that it was a Conditional baptism due to the fact that you thought you had been baptized previously.

I’m not even going to bother and insist on a conditional baptism any more. If they want to treat me like a catechuman, fine, splash the water and let’s get on with it.

Someone is making this a lot more difficult than it needs to be.

Have a talk with the priest and mention to him that you have already been baptized twice. You should not be treated as a catechumen if you are not - and you will still need to make a very thorough First Confession during Lent, so they need to understand that YES, you have been validly baptized, and help you prepare for your First Confession, when the time comes for that.

 

[Pug]

Because NOBODY in charge of RCIA programs in this area seems to have bothered reading what the US Council of Bishops had to say about it. I am thoroughly sick and tired of it all and will just put up with it.

I’m so sorry. You are a Christian already, and that ought to be carefully recognized. Be sure to receive the sacrament of confession before they confirm you and before you receive Eucharist for the first time. If you have done a mortal sin since you were first baptized, you really must go before receiving the other sacraments.

I agree with jmcrae, you ought to be able to get a copy of your baptismal certificate from the particular Lutheran church where you were baptized, even if the Anglican records were destroyed. This is a routine request. They ought to have no trouble supplying you with one.

I’m glad you have found a program that you find helpful for walking you through reading appropriate reading materials. (the online class).

 

[jmm08]

Andruschak,

I went through RCIA not long ago (it started about two years ago). And initially the idea that it would take so long was discouraging. But this is the time when we must learn the most important lesson first – obedience.

My RCIA small-group leaders weren’t perfect. Early on I had to straighten them out because they got Our Lady of Lourdes mixed up with Our Lady of Fatima. You will discover that some people just aren’t so keen on Mary. Perhaps Our Lady is more concerned about those of us who need her help more.

And another person who replied also said it right. This isn’t just about you. It is important for us all to learn how to be a better team. By putting others ahead of yourself, you will discover we make more progress.

When I was in college years ago, I sometimes took very advanced math classes. I discovered that I would do a lot better if I found and bought a really good textbook on the same topic. That way, if the instructor’s textbook made no sense I had another text which might explain things in a way that I would better understand.

So when I started RCIA, I searched and found a very good instruction series with an instructor that I already knew I liked quite a bit. Archbishop Fulton Sheen made a series of talks that weren’t very widely published.

The internet site I downloaded them from isn’t there any more. But here is another. I think the same talks.
americancatholictruthsociety.com/articles/sheen.htm

These talks each have a lot of content in them. And I suggest that you should not rush through more than one each week. You may need to replay a talk sometimes. I found that there was a lot to think about with each talk I listened to. And that it took time for me to think about things. For example, even a few days later I could find my mind thinking about and dwelling on things I heard in each talk.

Fulton Sheen’s originally intended order of instruction follows:

01 of 50 Philosophy of Life
02 of 50 Conscience
03 of 50 Good and Evil
04 of 50 The Divine Invasion
05 of 50 Line up the Claimants
06 of 50 Revealed Truth
07 of 50 Miracles
08 of 50 New Testament Revelation
09 of 50 Divinity of Christ
10 of 50 Humanity of Christ
11 of 50 The Blessed Trinity
12 of 50 The Mother of Jesus
13 of 50 Christ in the Creed-Birth
14 of 50 Suffering Death and Resurrection
15 of 50 Ascension
16 of 50 The Holy Spirit
17 of 50 Church-Body of Christ
18 of 50 Peter-Vicar of Christ
19 of 50 Authority and Infallibility
20 of 50 Communism and the Church
21 of 50 Original Sin and Angels
22 of 50 Original Sin and Mankind
23 of 50 Effects of Original Sin
24 of 50 Sanctifying Grace
25 of 50 Grace and the Sacraments
26 of 50 Baptism
27 of 50 Confirmation
28 of 50 Holy Eucharist
29 of 50 The Eucharistic Sacrifice
30 of 50 The Mass
31 of 50 Sin
32 of 50 Sin and Penance
33 of 50 Penance
34 of 50 Sacrament of the Sick
35 of 50 Holy Orders
36 of 50 The Sacrament of Marriage
37 of 50 Sex is a Mystery
38 of 50 Birth Prevention
39 of 50 The Four Tensions of Love
40 of 50 Marriage Problems
41 of 50 Commandments I-III
42 of 50 Commandments IV-X
43 of 50 The Law of Love
44 of 50 Death and Judgment
45 of 50 Purgatory
46 of 50 Heaven is Not so Far Away
47 of 50 The Hell There Is
48 of 50 Womanhood in Religion
49 of 50 Prayer is a Dialogue
50 of 50 World Soul and Things

RCIA instructors should note the contents of this syllabus. And also note that I think Fulton Sheen’s talks were meant for a more general audience. But the talks are also at an introductory level and I think they are suitable for adult introductory instruction in the faith.

Also note that I didn’t quite finish listening to the talks. I think I should restart with # 36. Your prayers for me are welcomed.

The audio quality of these talks isn’t the best. I think they were recorded sometime in the 1960s. I think the content of these talks is very much orthodox. And one of my parish priests also knew about these talks and listened to them. I think when he sometimes gave an RCIA talk, he really relied a lot on trying to conform his talk to Fulton Sheen’s talk on the same topic.

Expert theologians do not necessarily present their ideas in ways that ordinary people can understand. Fulton Sheen was certainly somebody who could talk to ordinary people. When I hear him speak (or read his writing), it captures my imagination and I find it much easier to follow his instructions. In fact, reading Fulton Sheen was what helped make up my mind to enroll in RCIA in the first place.

jmm08

 

[Jeff_Hale]

“RCIA instructors should note the contents of this syllabus.”

Thanks, jmm08. I’ve bookmarked it and listened to the first audio.

 

[jmm08]

“RCIA instructors should note the contents of this syllabus.”

Thanks, jmm08. I’ve bookmarked it and listened to the first audio.

I recommend that y’all take the time to download each mp3 and save it on your computer. That way you will have the recordings. Because even this “Catholic Answers Forums” web site has been under attack. And there is no telling if other web sites are under attack or that they will be able to stay functional if they are attacked.

 

[lel]

In the case where someone didn’t know if they had been baptized before, or if they thought they had but no evidence exists that they did, then they would be treated as a Candidate for the Sacrament of First Confession (meaning that it will take place during Lent and cover the entire lifetime of sins), and as a conditional Catechumen for the Sacraments of Initiation (meaning conditional Baptism, Confirmation, and First Holy Communion).

I’m not sure what I was asking, but this is the answer I sought! Thanks!

 

[Pug]

01 of 50 Philosophy of Life

Is this first talk really only a few minutes long? I listened and it cut him off midsentence?