Has anyone changed there mind here?

[ac_claire]

Please tell me that none of you are buying into his “intuitive” hateful opinions as fact? Please?!?!?!

I’m not, lml. Smells like bait to me.

 

[ac_claire]

[OT-- but the topic is circling the drain anyway.]

How do you think this rudeness began and what can we do about it as individuals?

That barista Laura mentioned who refuses to serve customers who are on their phones is a start. People have to just stop tolerating the behavior; stop rewarding it in any way, IMO. Problem is not everyone will get on the boat with us; most probably won’t.

So the actions of a few may affect some change, incrimentally…one person at a time. And building decent, traditional families of course will stem the tide at least a tiny bit.
Which is better than not at all.

 

[Cat]

Absolution of venial sins, if you are contrite, is only available in the Traditional Mass. This absolution has been removed in the OF. This doesn’t mean that you can ignore confession. Penance is a sacrament and from it you will receive grace.

This isn’t true.

 

[stmaria]

Originally Posted by stmaria
Absolution of venial sins, if you are contrite, is only available in the Traditional Mass. This absolution has been removed in the OF. This doesn’t mean that you can ignore confession. Penance is a sacrament and from it you will receive grace

This isn’t true.

Yes it is. It has always been true. I e-mailed my FSSP priest and he verified it.
,

Here is the prayer of absolution in the Traditional Mass.
“May almighty God have mercy on you, forgive you your sins, and bring you to life everlasting. [Amen] May the Almighty and merciful Lord grant us pardon, absolution [he blesses the people with the sign of the cross], and remission of our sins.” TLM Absolution

Ordinary form
“May almighty God have mercy on us, forgive us our sins, and bring us to everlasting life.” Ordinary Form
From the GIRM

The Act of Penitence

1. Then the priest invites those present to take part in the Act of Penitence, which, after a brief pause for silence, the entire community carries out through a formula of general confession. The rite concludes with the priest’s absolution, which, however, **lacks the efficacy **of the Sacrament of Penance."

 

[James0235]

This isn’t true.

It is true that the prayer of absolution that is in the EF is not in the OF. But, that does not mean that there is no absolution of venial sins in the OF.

In the EF, after the Confiteor (“I confess to…”), the priest prayed this:

May almighty God have mercy upon you, forgive you your sins, and bring you to life everlasting. Amen.

and then there was a second prayer:

May the almighty and merciful Lord grant us pardon, absolution, and remission of out sins.

In the OF this has been changed to:
**
May almighty God have mercy on us, forgive us our sins, and bring us to everlasting life. Amen.**

For whatever reason Bugnini removed the 2nd prayer (the prayer of absolution) from the 1970 Roman Missal. But, as already pointed out, holy water removes venial sin. And receiving the Eucharist removes it as well. So, I do not think it is correct to say that the absolution of venial sins doesn’t occur in the OF. But, I do believe it is true that there is nor a specific prayer for absolution.

James

 

[elzoro]

I agree with SuscipeMeDomine.

Why would I want to talk to someone who thinks so negatively about any mass that I attend? I enjoy all styles of mass be it Latin mass, NO or the Anglican Use Mass. You can debate the styles all you want. But as my father told me “Jesus came to establish a Church not a Mass”. The truth is I go to mass not because of the style of mass but because my lord and savior has sacrificed himself for me and I am going to receive him into my body and soul. That’s what matters to me. Not your opinion of whither it’s the most correct or pure form of mass.

This type pf thinking among “Conservatives”, is so shortsighhted, narrow and selfish. To care about only the “bare bones”, or just the legalistic aspect of the Mass, fails to take into account 1)our humanity which needs the Truths of the Faith symbolized and spoken n the Mass 2 )the sacred traditons of the saints who taught us through example and trial and error which developed into the “Tridentine Mass” and other Sacraments (including the Office, etc.) 3) The constant teaching of the Church who has always taught that it must “hold on to the traditions” passed on…
One needs to think beyond “Oh, all Masses are valid, so it doesn’t matter” which. philosophy.

 

[stmaria]

For whatever reason Bugnini removed the 2nd prayer (the prayer of absolution) from the 1970 Roman Missal. But, as already pointed out, holy water removes venial sin. And receiving the Eucharist removes it as well. So, I do not think it is correct to say that the absolution of venial sins doesn’t occur in the OF. But, I do believe it is true that there is nor a specific prayer for absolution.

James

Could someone please show me where in the Cateschism it states that holy water and the Eucharist forgives venial sins., if one is contrite of course. I would like to have that reference handy. Thanks

 

[James_2_24]

I agree with SuscipeMeDomine.

But as my father told me “Jesus came to establish a Church not a Mass”.

Jesus Christ came to establish a Church, yes… but He also established the Mass, when he celebrated the first Mass at the Last Supper.

 

[ac_claire]

Could someone please show me where in the Cateschism it states that holy water and the Eucharist forgives venial sins., if one is contrite of course. I would like to have that reference handy. Thanks

well here’s the Eucharist part:

1393 Holy Communion separates us from sin. The body of Christ we receive in Holy Communion is “given up for us,” and the blood we drink “shed for the many for the forgiveness of sins.” **For this reason the Eucharist cannot unite us to Christ without at the same time cleansing us from past sins and preserving us from future sins: **

1394 As bodily nourishment restores lost strength, so the Eucharist strengthens our charity, which tends to be weakened in daily life; and this living charity wipes away venial sins. By giving himself to us Christ revives our love and enables us to break our disordered attachments to creatures and root ourselves in him:

1395 **By the same charity that it enkindles in us, the Eucharist preserves us from future mortal sins. **The more we share the life of Christ and progress in his friendship, the more difficult it is to break away from him by mortal sin. The Eucharist is not ordered to the forgiveness of mortal sins - that is proper to the sacrament of Reconciliation. The Eucharist is properly the sacrament of those who are in full communion with the Church.

 

[AJV]

Absolution of venial sins, if you are contrite, is only available in the Traditional Mass. This absolution has been removed in the OF. This doesn’t mean that you can ignore confession. Penance is a sacrament and from it you will receive grace.

The pray Indulgentiam has been removed but that does not mean that the OF does not contain an absolution. As is evident from the GIRM, the Misereatur is an absolution. Although the Indulgentiam is more strongly worded, strictly speaking, in one sense, both are on the same footing since they are depreciative formulae. In the Traditional altar missal, the words “facit absolutionem” come before the Misereatur, not the Indulgentiam.

 

[Ghoti]

This forum has become infested with liberals here lately.

In my opinion, there are three general groups. Liberals, Orthodox, and Traditionalists. The Orthodox and Traditionalist don’t tend to go at it.

Please define what you consider to be a Liberal, an Orthodox, and a Traditionalist Catholic.

If I were to go over to Litugy and Sacraments and start a thread titled RED, and the text of my post said simply, “what do you think”, I would be ignored or someone would ask what I meant.

If my text said " I’m a traditionalist and I say RED ! " I would be attacked with passion. Just because of the word traditionalist.

I’d be silly to do something like that wouldn’t I ? I’d be starting a baited thread.

The problem is, some such threads are started off in the guise of “Subject: HOLY TRUE RED instead of happy clappy pinko.”

I’m not fool enough to think the debates won’t continue here, but the liberals are here among us. They are easy to spot.

How, pray tell?

The Church’s definition of liberal, vs the average traditionalist definition ? You are right. They differ. For the time being

Ooooh, sounds like a conspiracy.

 

[stmaria]

The pray Indulgentiam has been removed but that does not mean that the OF does not contain an absolution. As is evident from the GIRM, the Misereatur is an absolution. Although the Indulgentiam is more strongly worded, strictly speaking, in one sense, both are on the same footing since they are depreciative formulae. In the Traditional altar missal, the words “facit absolutionem” come before the Misereatur, not the Indulgentiam.

Ordinary form
“May almighty God have mercy on us, forgive us our sins, and bring us to everlasting life.” Ordinary Form

From the GIRM
The Act of Penitence

1. Then the priest invites those present to take part in the Act of Penitence, which, after a brief pause for silence, the entire community carries out through a formula of general confession. The rite concludes with the priest’s absolution, which, however, **lacks the efficacy **of the Sacrament of Penance.

 

[James0235]

Could someone please show me where in the Cateschism it states that holy water and the Eucharist forgives venial sins., if one is contrite of course. I would like to have that reference handy. Thanks

Baltimore Catechism #2 had this to say:

292. Q. What is a sacramental?

A. A sacramental is anything set apart or blessed by the Church to excite good thoughts and to increase devotion, and through these movements of the heart to remit venial sin.

301. Q. What is holy water?

A. Holy water is water blessed by the priest with solemn prayer to beg God’s blessing on those who use it, and protection from the powers of darkness.

And Baltimore Catechism #3 said:

**Q. 1054. Do the Sacramentals of themselves remit venial sins?
**A. The Sacramentals of themselves do not remit venial sins, but they move us to truer devotion, to greater love for God and greater sorrow for our sins, and this devotion, love and sorrow bring us grace, and the grace remits venial sins.

James

 

[stmaria]

well here’s the Eucharist part:

Thank you. This brings up another question. Why does the Catechism say "for many" and not "for all"
1393 Holy Communion separates us from sin. The body of Christ we receive in Holy Communion is “given up for us,” and the blood we drink “shed for the** many **for the forgiveness of sins.” For this reason the Eucharist cannot unite us to Christ without at the same time cleansing us from past sins and preserving us from future sins:

 

[AJV]

Ordinary form
“May almighty God have mercy on us, forgive us our sins, and bring us to everlasting life.” Ordinary Form

From the GIRM
The Act of Penitence

1. Then the priest invites those present to take part in the Act of Penitence, which, after a brief pause for silence, the entire community carries out through a formula of general confession. The rite concludes with the priest’s absolution, which, however, **lacks the efficacy **of the Sacrament of Penance.

Yes of course…I was speaking in the context of the way you were using absolution with regard to venial sins and the OF having no absolution for venial sins. It does, as does the EF- the difference is that the EF has two formulae and the OF only one. The absolution within Mass is a sacramental not a sacrament.

 

[stmaria]

Baltimore Catechism #2 had this to say:

292. Q. What is a sacramental?

A. A sacramental is anything set apart or blessed by the Church to excite good thoughts and to increase devotion, and through these movements of the heart to remit venial sin.

301. Q. What is holy water?

A. Holy water is water blessed by the priest with solemn prayer to beg God’s blessing on those who use it, and protection from the powers of darkness.

And Baltimore Catechism #3 said:

**Q. 1054. Do the Sacramentals of themselves remit venial sins?
**

Thanks James, I will go with the Baltimore Catechism on this one

 

[James0235]

Thank you. This brings up another question. Why does the Catechism say "for many" and not "for all"

“For many” is correct. “For all” was a poor translation from the Latin. Pope Benedict has ordered this changed with the rest of the new English language translation that is being prepared.

James

 

[stmaria]

Yes of course…I was speaking in the context of the way you were using absolution with regard to venial sins and the OF having no absolution for venial sins. It does, as does the EF- the absolution within Mass is a sacramental not a sacrament.

But **the prayer **in the TLM gives absolution if one is contrite.
In the OF the Penitential Rite is optional. My parish priest only says the Penitential RIte, optional A, during Lent. The rest of the years he skips it and uses option B or C.

 

[ac_claire]

1. Then the priest invites those present to take part in the Act of Penitence, which, after a brief pause for silence, the entire community carries out through a formula of general confession. The rite concludes with the priest’s absolution, which, however, **lacks the efficacy **of the Sacrament of Penance.

Right, it lacks the efficacy of Confession to absolve mortal sin. Doesn’t say or mean that it no longer absolves venial sin.

 

[stmaria]

Right, it lacks the efficacy of Confession to absolve mortal sin. Doesn’t say or mean that it no longer absolves venial sin.

It does not remove venial sins. This absoultion was removed. Also the Penitential Rite A is optional. It is often skipped completely and Option B or C is used.