Has anyone here been a victim of spousal abuse?

  • Thread starter Thread starter nancy347
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
N

nancy347

Guest
I will be married 25 years at the end of january, 2009. I am married to a man who has a history of anger, verbal, mental and physical abuse. We have been to counselors since we got married in 1984, he really wanted to learn how to control his temper and why he did things he would do, but keeps relapsing. We have separated several times, the last time from 2003 to 2006, and were a month away from our divorce being finalized, but i took him back again, hoping that if i just loved him enough he would change. Here it is 3 years later, and he doesnt like God, still has a temper, gets paranoid about things, and nit picks at me all of the time. He doesnt think that he does anything wrong, hes 52 yo and watches mtv and teenage shows, is addicted to porn, tries to hide it, and after we moved out of state a year and a half ago and are empty nesters now, he sits and watches these stupid shows on tv and is on the internet a lot. As we are getting ready to celebrate our 25th anniversary, it is actually making me more sad and i feel like a fake because we dont have anything in common anymore, our children are grown and i went back with him the last time, so that our daughter would be able to finish high school in the town we lived in. Again, i feel like a fake, i am not happy in this relationship, the more i try to show him love the more it seems to depress him, he doesnt want to hear about God anymore and says everything is my fault. I started counseling today to try and figure out of i should just give up and leave him for good. I have been waiting for 25 years for him to become stable with his anger and his views on God but i am really tired of this and feel like we are just two strangers living in our house. Advise would be welcome. Peace, Nancy
 
Nancy I feel very sad for you.

Being the recipient of the anger and intolerance is one thing, very hard to take, but on top of it his lack of wanting to be moral, would be so much to bear.

My dear husband for the first 25 years was an angry, intolerant man. In him it was because he was ‘driven’ for perfection. I could never measure up, if not one way, then another, and he was very hard on our boys. Yet this was a cause of sadness to him that he was so often stressed and angry and he sought help eventually. That didn’t stop him from having a complete stress breakdown and he could never work again nor has recovered. He left four times in all…but he has integrity to the nth degree, so I could always respect him. Our 25th was a travesty as it immediately preceded the last time he left.

However I know what it’s like to feel such pain that for a moment you wish you could die. I know what it feels like to be able to bear things only because you think, “One day he’ll die or I’ll die” and you’re glad that will be so. That it won’t last forever. One day it will be over.

I also know what it’s like to do as you do, show love…and show love…to no end. You give the kindness and affection even though feeling is bruised out of you. I learned not to show sorrow a long time agao. In the early days it was called “the waterworks” which “has no effect on me.” He didn’t understand that I cried because I was so sad, not for effect! I realised that if I showed my heart I was only, as I put it, 'hurting myself on him." I remember a time when I was battling anger against him and went to Confession in tears, to be told, “Feelings aren’t bad. It’s what you do with them. You wish him no harm.”

You say he seems depressed when you show him love. With my husband I came to understand that in being good to him, in never giving up on him, because he was very moral, not religious, but moral, as I wasn’t mean to him, I only made it difficult for him to leave…or not to come back. I realised that eventually.

I understand the pain, but I didn’t have the pain of his caring for porn or any such thing. And because of a basic goodness, after his breakdown the kinder side of him came forward. He doesn’t have much affection for me and I no longer expect it because he can’t give that. He’d step between me and any danger though. He still has a go at me sometimes, but he’s more likely now to chide me with a touch of humour now. I think if I died he’d accept it very quickly. I don’t think he’d miss me much, he doesn’t get that attached to people though he’d do anything he can for our sons and grandchildren. For myself, I have our sons and grandchildren and my faith, and friends. He doesn’t look for friendships.

My husband was a convert but became an atheist after his breakdown. He won’t hear about God, and I know better than to speak about it. He’s fine with my going to Mass each day because he thinks a person should live what they believe. He still has a strong will. There are so many things I can’t talk to him about, not anything from this forum, and he has no interest in religion, sport, politics, people he doesn’t know, doesn’t watch the news. But there’s a basic goodness in him. I know I’ll end up nursing him because he has arthritis aside from his other issues.

Anyway so I know something of half of what you’re suffering. And because you have that other half, his unhealthy interest, I don’t know what you should do for your life. I don’t like that you are so unhappy. It’s good that you are going to counselling, and have you talked to your priest?
 
Thank you for your reply trishie i really appreciate it. Yes, i have spoken to several priests about this, and they unanamously told me to divorce him. His porn addiction has really affected our daughter, and I know that she thinks less of me, or that I didnt side with her unhappiness about living with him. She and I discussed his porn addiction with him and at one point he defended it so much that he told her he would have no problem with her being in pornographic movies when she was of age. I made him leave right after that. Now she seems to pick boys to date that “need to be fixed” and she also is dressing like she is posing in playboy and even when she is out with her friends, many people think that she is a i hate to say it, slut, with her behavior. She recently modeled at a motorcyle show and i cried when i saw her posing in the pictures. Whenever I try to tell her that she shouldnt be dating boys with anger problems, or walking around like a playboy bunny, she always says, well you marrie dad and keep going back to him, so I believe that I let her down by trying to make the marriage work. My son on the other hand, wants us to stay together at all costs, he cannot accept the thought of us getting divorced, he thinks that with my beliefs that I can put up with this. I hope that this extra information helps anyone reading understand the situation better. God bless you all, peace, nancy
 
It makes my thoughts ache just to read what you have been going through with your son and daughter.

Please don’t think your daughter’s choices are all your fault. She’s making the choices and it’s emotionally blackmailing to blame you. In a way too your son is bargaining with you, trying to force your choices. It sounds like neither of them wish to allow you the freedom of your choices, and it must be so hard for you, because all we want to do is to protect our children and for them to be happy. If you do what either says you can’t win with the other.

You know that you went back to/took back, your husband because you were trying to do the right thing, especially by your children. You are not at fault for that because you were doing the best you understood at the time. Maybe it was or wasn’t. But you did the best you knew so you don’t deserve any blame.

I don’t actually think you should have to live in a poluted spiritual atmosphere. And your priests have said you shouldn’t. But I understand that it’s a horribly difficult decision to come to and understand your dilemma that’s compounded by your son’s pressure on you. He would undoubtedly be very angry should you leave, but it’s not very loving and protective of him. He seems just to be thinking of himself. Please forgive me for saying these things. I love my sons to bits too. If you decide to leave he may emotionally punish you, but he’d probably get over it, wouldn’t he? Is it possible to have a really good discussion with your husband to find out what is the future for your marriage. A Carmelite nun said to me once, “your husband can leave you, but you can’t leave him.” At the same time, two of my four sisters left their husbands for good reason, with priestly blessing, obtained annulments, and their second long marriages have been very happy…so it seems to have been right that they left their husbands.

So in the end I don’t have answers, but you do have my love and hopes for your peace and happiness rather than the limbo you live in.
Love, Trishie
 
I agree with T about what your daughter is pulling on you. When you try to talk with her regarding her choices and she throws what you have done in your face, I would look her right in the eye and say, “If you are trying to defend your bad choices by pointing out mine, then you are using the weakest argument for ruining your life that I have ever heard.” and then ask her about the weather.
 
Hi nancy–just curious, what makes you stay in an abusive relationship? Your husband refuses to change. You have been more than patient. Your children, although it’s not entirely your fault, probably have a lot of anger built up over witnessing the abuse all these years. And have learned that is how they should act…because their dad acts so bad.

I’m not an advocate for divorce…but, sometimes we make things crosses to bear, as opposed to this was never God’s plan for us to begin with. There’s a difference between carrying a cross, and just staying stuck, in a bad situation. I was abused by a man before my husband…I speak from experience. So, just curious as to why you are willing to stay? 😦

Unless he gets serious help, he will never change on his own. Men who abuse don’t change on their own–rarely, especially if God is not in the picture for him. Typically, people who abuse others, were abused by someone in their past, namely a parent during their childhood. Not sure if that is the case, but that is why the behavior is so ingrained in him, but he has to want to change. If he doesn’t, you will continue to be abused. And I’m not sure why you would want to stay with someone who treats you so badly. I know abuse can beat a woman down, mentally…to the point where she thinks little of herself. I have been there, as I said. I will pray for you…
 
Been there done that, have a really ugly t-shirt.

Trishie, as usual, has commented with lots of charity and grace.

I didn’t know she has been through that living hell too.

I would suggest you flip the question: What would you tell your daughter if she was in your position? What advice would you give her if she was with someone like her father?

Someone asked me that and I told her "I’d tell them to “get out yesterday.” I was told: “Then you need to take your own advice and show them how, because chances are, they’ll marry someone like their father and you will be the example they follow of how to deal with that.”

Do not let a son who doesn’t even live with you anymore guilt you into a living death. What’s it to him? Is he paying your bills or putting up with the abuse? He escaped. He can’t force you to stay. He knows nothing of life or marriage. It isn’t his call. How dare he!

And as for your daughter, you just need to say “I stayed for you to have some stability. Now I’m leaving so you have an example that you don’t have to live with degradation your whole life.”

What you have is not a marriage. That is not how God intended for spouses to give and receive love. Bringing porn into a house corrupts everything in it. He will only become more addicted and more hostile to The Truth. And angrier at your good behavior and silent reproach. He’ll eventually step up the spiritual attacks. Or Satan will do it through him. He’s a useful tool there.

You more than paid your dues and served your time in hell. If the idea of living alone is better than what you have now, then you really have been alone and not in a marriage. Free yourself to love God completely without a “husband” being in your way and dragging you down. Your obligations to your children are over.

PS… do you really want to be a grandma someday and your grandchildren come into your house that is tainted by porn and stuff on tv and computers. Little kids have ways of accidentally putting in videos that might not be too good for them.

Make a new home that someone would want to bring innocent children to visit.

Good luck. You have earned some happiness. You are not the fake. But he has turned the whole marriage into a facade. (I’ll go out on a limb here and venture that if you were to redecorate, you’d make everything white and off-white, huh? There’s psychological reasons for people who do that.)

Give yourself the best 25th anniversary present ever and leave him with the promise to yourself the next 25 years will be abuse free and porn free. There is nothing to work with with a man who is lost to porn. Are you waiting till he begins to drink and becomes an angry full-fledged out of control alcoholic?

If you want to borrow my t-shirt, you can have it… 😉
 
You are alone in this marriage.
He is abusing you and he is being unfaithful to you.
He has left a long time ago.
Its about time you leave this ruin.
Maybe you can even find someone who is deserving of you to spent the rest of your life with. Someone who will appreciate your love and respect you.
 
I was the child in an abusive marriage. The happiest day of my life was when my mother divorced him and left. I didn’t have to live in fear every minute of every day anymore.

As for me, I knew from a VERY early age that I would NEVER put up with an abusive man–and I haven’t. At the first sign of uncontrolled anger in a man I was dating, I left–quickly. My husband has never ever raised a hand to me, or been verbally or emotionally abusive. That’s why I married him! The cycle can be broken, but you have to let your kids know that abuse is NOT acceptable. The longer you stay there, the harder it will be for them to learn that.
 
Look, I know you don’t wanna hear this… but… you made the choice to take this guy back. He has been showing you honestly who he is for 25 years, and yet you for some reason refuse to believe him. Your choice to take him back over and over again, knowing what he was, has contributed to his ability to damage your children. You have to own that. Someone who volunteers is not a victim. You knew what he was, you took him back… multiple times. That moves you out of the victim category for me.

Get your children out of this toxic situation post haste. It is up to you to do the best you can for them, though it sounds like your daughter is already on the path to some very bad things. I pray God will protect her…
 
nancy–everyone here offers you such great advice. I know it’s hard to move out of our comfort zone. I have read that people will stay in a painful situation, just because it’s what they know…it’s less scary than changing. See, for you to leave him, YOU will have to change. You will have to change how your view yourself. A lot of how you view yourself has been what he has told you, which are abusive lies, and non sense.

When I dated that abusive guy I mention above, it wasn’t about him anymore…it was more about why did I allow MYSELF to date someone like that for so long…why did I keep allowing him back into my life when we’d break it off, etc…etc…? So, I think if you get to the core of why you are with him, why you stay, why you took him back…you can then begin to work on yourself, to break free of what bondage you’re in, as it relates to him. He’s not holding you there against your will, right? :o You have the power…you do…to make things better for yourself.

Just some food for thought. Might not go down easy at first. If you get indigestion over anything I post, just take a tums, and keep reading. Truly, I and other women on here, speak from experience. Good luck–I’ll be praying for you. I’ll be praying for your husband too to get the help he needs…regardless if you stay or not. God bless.
 
basilisk said:
Look, I know you don’t wanna hear this… but… you made the choice to take this guy back. He has been showing you honestly who he is for 25 years, and yet you for some reason refuse to believe him. Your choice to take him back over and over again, knowing what he was, has contributed to his ability to damage your children. You have to own that. Someone who volunteers is not a victim. You knew what he was, you took him back… multiple times. That moves you out of the victim category for me.

Get your children out of this toxic situation post haste. It is up to you to do the best you can for them, though it sounds like your daughter is already on the path to some very bad things. I pray God will protect her…
Click to expand...
This is probably not the advice that is the most comforting to you, but as someone who after 17 years of an abusive marriage finally did leave, this is really pretty right on. You need to make the decision and act on it. You are doing NO ONE, including your ex, any favors by maintaining this damaging relationship. No matter how impossible and life changing it may see, you CAN leave, make a better life for yourself, and set a better example for your children. Yes, you should have done it long ago, but now you need to start taking care of your future TODAY. Make the decision to stop being a victim and get out of there!!
 
I want to thank all of your for your honest and helpful posts. I have taken steps today through the local domestic violence agency to get out of this situation. I have to sign papers on Friday so they can transfer my case back to the state that I moved from last year. Once they send the papers back to new jersey, i am currently living in new york, the county where i lived in in new jersey will do an interview over the phone with me. Once i am approved with them, which i hope that i will be, i will live in a shelter until a transitional apartment becomes available. As of today they told me there is about a 6 month wait for the apartments, and you live in them for up to 18 months until i can find a permanent residence. I hope by that time, divorce proceedings will have begun and i will be able to get some monetary support. I have been disabled for 14 years after getting two of three of the hepatitis b vaccines that i needed for a position at a doctors office. I took that job in order to get health benefits for my children and myself, since my husband had his own business and i was a freelance graphic artist. He knew i was planning on leaving him at that point, and then when i became sick from the vaccines and spent almost 3 years in bed, he said well maybe God allowed this for us to stay together. I did not receive social security disability until 8 years later and could no longer work due to the lasting effects of the vaccine injury. I had no family that would help me, i am the youngest of 7 and we grew up in an alcoholic abusive home at the hands of my father, and like one of the other posters, i was so happy when he left my mother for another woman, i was 9 yo at the time, and could finally sleep at night. Even though we were poor after that it didnt matter to me, just knowing that we didnt have to worry whether we were going to live through the night with my father’s rampages, was a wonderful feeling of freedom. Unfortunately my mom died when i was 14, and i was stuck back with my father and his wife and spent the next 4 years in that hell. I never thought i would end up marrying someone who was abusive, a lot of my sisters did and ended up divorcing and moving on to other abusive husbands. My husband said he really wanted to change in the beginning and we started counseling right after we got married, he learned why he did a lot of the things he did, but kept backsliding and i did not have the support of his family because they didnt like my catholic beliefs. They are all pretty much the same, angry, yelling, over emotional, taking things out on their spouses, i dont know how their spouses have stayed with them for so long. So begrudgenly, i stayed with him because i was no longer able to work and it seems whenever i am sick, he took/takes care of me and is nicer, i believe it is because i am too weak to argue with him. I get sick a lot and end up in the hospital a lot because of my weakened immune system, so i always worried who is going to take care of my children. Now that they are one their own, i dont see any reason for me to stay, as other posters have said, my children are on their own, and now i should take care of me. I had always hoped as i am sure other spouses of abusers have thought, that if we went to counseling enough and if i loved him enough that he would change. But i realize people can only change if they are open to God’s Grace, you can pray for someone until your blue in the face, but if they arent open to the Grace of God, nothing is going to happen. I feel a peace right now, and ill admit a little nervousness because of my disability, but reading your posts and talking with the domestic violence and counselors this past year, have helped to affirm me, and i am grateful to all of you for that. I spoke to my daughter about it today, she was snotty to me, but i guess i am going to learn how to stand up to my children also. I love them so much, but they talk to me and treat me a lot like their father does, because they saw me put up with him. So i know that i will be alone in this as far as my family is concerned, and i lost my closest sister last june to pancreatic cancer, so i am hoping that the agencies that i am dealing with will keep reaffirming me and moving back to new jersey, where my church is and my doctors are close by, and some friends are close by, i will feel more comfortable than staying up here where we live in ny state which is a very isolated area. I am not telling any other friends or my son, until i am out of here, i dont want to hear especially from my son, that i should keep working on the relationship. Again, thank you all for your honesty and support and i ask for prayers for an easy transition through these agencies that i will be working with, so i will be able to finally breathe another sigh of relief, as i did when my father left, that i wont have to be afraid anymore, and start learning who Nancy is again, and not the scared, abused Nancy that i have been for 25 years. Peace, Nancy
 
Nancy, I’m proud of you. What you did took courage. And I can see why your disability made you feel you had no options. Plus, abusers are very manipulative in most cases and they play “push me pull you” and as soon as you’re walking out the door they turn on the charm and try to pull you back. They only want you as they see you leave.
They don’t want to win YOU, they just want to WIN.

I hope your daughter doesn’t tell her father what you are planning.

She is not snotty to you because she saw you take it from her father. I stood up to the father of my children and fought back verbally and they still talk to me with disrespect. Because they have issues. Deep down, I think they know he’s a horrible person and they’re half of him so there is a lot of self-hatred going on there. People who don’t like themselves don’t work real hard to be likeable to others.

So don’t take all the blame for her behavior on yourself.

You can start finding out who you are by doing more things on your own. Seeing movies alone you want to see. Shop where YOU want to shop. Eat where YOU want to eat. Start making steps like that and every week make an effort to do one thing you’ve never done before. Even if it’s something simple like buying a shade of lipstick you’ve never worn before.

Make a list of the things you’ve done. You might be surprised at the things you start finding out that you like. Teach yourself to think outside of the box you’ve locked yourself in all these years.

There is something about knowing the door is open you’re going to walk through that makes things more tolerable. It will change how you react to him. That will change how he reacts to you. Don’t be confused that the change means anything is fixed. You’ll be sucked back in that way.

The change is because you are changing inside. Follow through on it. Make new friends. Prepare your future without him.

Many of us have done this. It’s hard. But you can do it too. 👍
 
Liberano, i was just reading ur posts about ur daughter, boy does that sound familiar. They stopped on September 5, 2008. I was just wondering how things are working out for you and your daughter. Do your other daughters see that their sister is going down the wrong road? This sounds so much like my daughter, though she hated her father, but when i told her she was grounded when her father and i were separated, and i had had it with her and her now xbfs behavior, and i told her if she doesnt go home right away because she is grounded she can go live with her father. She didnt come home, she went to her fathers. He of course treated her like gold after ingoring her for years also, but when she came home that night, we talked and she stayed with me. She didnt want us to get back together, but i think that it was more because her father would give her money and do things for her out of guilt, and i didnt have anything to give her but my love. After i spoke with her today about a plan to get down to new jersey, i told her not to speak to anyone about it. Now because ive tried over the years for the kids to love their father, she is upset that i am leaving him. When she called later on, she asked me if i was still coming down this weekend and i couldnt talk because he was here, so she said yes or no and i said no then she said r u still leaving dad yes or no and i said yes, and then she said well give my love to our dog and to her father, and then she said especially to her father. So like u posted earlier, i hope that she doesnt say anything to anyone, ive decided to keep her out of my plan and havent said anything to my son, because i really want to keep them out of the middle of this. It may take a couple of weeks for me to get down there, and i have to act like im happy here until then so their father doesnt flip out on me. I dont want to make him the bad guy, the kids know how he is, i just want to get on with my life and live the catholic christian life that he and the kids constantly ridicule me for. I dont want to put him through the ringer, he can live in our house until it is sold or as long as he wants, i dont care, i just want to be able to take some of the furniture when i do get an apartment, so i dont have to put out money for that, and if the judge says no alimony, well so be it, i just want my freedom, he can have his money, my peace of mind and trying to be who God created me to be is my priority at this point. I will always pray for his conversion, i love him in a christian way, but it will certainly be interesting on how my children react to both of us. Sorry for the sidetracking there, i wanted to post to see how you and your daughter were doing. Please know that you are all in my prayers. Peace, Nancy
 
My daughter is still living over at her father’s who ignores her and lets her do what she wants.

I try to maintain contact and every few days drive her to school. But she is obsessed with the BF across the street. She threatened if I tried to enforce the court order making her stay with me she’d just go live with her father and never talk to me again. And she thinks the courts or the state can’t tell her where to live. She doesn’t understand that her father dragged the state in to basically have jurisdiction over them 10 years ago when he filed for divorce and the state CAN tell her where to live. If they knew what his household was like and how unstable he was and she refused to live with me, they have the power to put her in foster care.

I’ve tried to tell her not to push things because she could bring a world of problems on her father’s head and his behavior would be a matter of open court record that could interfere with him ever getting a job again. She doesn’t listen to me.

It’s a bad situation. Supposedly BF and his family are moving in 5 months. But she is in denial and her stupid father thinks that all he has to do is wait and the problem will go away in 5 months.

No, it will just change to a different problem.

It’s a mess. And it’s very depressing for me. My heart is broken. Her sisters see her as stupid too. And she ignores them to spend time with stupid BF. And that hurts them too.

Her father doesn’t care. Too busy in his room on the computer with the door locked.

:mad:
 
Liberanosamalo said:
She doesn’t understand that her father dragged the state in to basically have jurisdiction over them 10 years ago when he filed for divorce and the state CAN tell her where to live. If they knew what his household was like and how unstable he was and she refused to live with me, they have the power to put her in foster care.

I’ve tried to tell her not to push things because she could bring a world of problems on her father’s head and his behavior would be a matter of open court record that could interfere with him ever getting a job again. She doesn’t listen to me.
Click to expand...
This part really stood out to me, and shows why you are such an extraordinary person, Liberano. Even after all this man has done to you, you still try not to damage him unecessarily, and even admonish your child to avoid it! I know you do it for your kids’ sake, but I am just so impressed with your maturity, forbearance, and willingness to put aside your own understandable desire to nuke the guy any way you can.
 
Well today i feel nervous and anxious. Its so easy to just say forget it as one of the posters said i have a comfort zone here as bad as it is and it is scary to move out of it. The prospects of living in a shelter for 6 mos is concerning me also, because of my disability, i am sick a lot. I just got off the phone with my husband, and he said he is concerned that i am not happy with him and am comparing him or blaming him for our daughters bad behavior lately, so i said well we can discuss it when u get home from work. Then he got upset and said so something is wrong and he said well if ur going to start in about me and he said dont even bring God into it, he said hell start in with me and everything that is wrong with me. Then he said he is who he is, and he doesnt want to discuss anything, he wants to leave everything as it is. I dont know if i should tell him that i am leaving or not. I just spoke to my son about what he said to me the last time i left last winter, and he had said if two people r willing to work at it, then i should stay, and i just told him what his father said and he imed me back saying that we may all need to get together to fix this. I am going to try to get in touch with the dv counselor now and try and get some help from her. Peace, Nancy
 
So you would rather face the certainty of more abuse than the uncertainty of living on your own? Because, come on, you have heard the whole apology thing before, haven’t you? And it didn’t last long did it? He already told you that if you dare to open your mouth, he will at least emotionally and verbally abuse you again. He told you straight out that he is going to do that.

Anything anyone says about working on a marriage does not apply to your situation. You don’t have a marriage, that takes two people who are committed to each other.

If you want your son to turn out like your husband, then by all means stay. I just hope that after your husband finally takes it too far and you are not there anymore, that he doesn’t start beating up your son, too.
 
People like your husband are very astute at taking the emotional temperature of people around them. Even in the last day, you have “changed” due to finally taking some control for yourself. So he is now “fishing” to see what is going on.

You are at a precarious place. Compare yourself to the horse being led from the burning barn. They have to put a towel over its eyes so it doesn’t bolt and run back in. Sweetie, you have to get beyond the flames.

Why you are letting your son dictate to you that you have to stay with a man who abuses you is beyond me.

Your husband hears you are unhappy. So his response is that if you let him know you are unhappy, he will tell you all the garbage he thinks of you and rant and rave at you and make you feel like garbage.

And you think there is anything to “discuss” or “fix” with him?

Of course he wants to leave everything as it is. He has all the rights of marriage and none of the obligations. He has a maid and a cook.

What are YOU getting out of this?

Do NOT tell your husband your plans. Abusive men often go haywire when you take control of your own life.

Six months in a place where people understand you and can help you and can counsel you to rebuild your life?

In six months of living as you are now, what will be left if you DON’T leave?

Don’t be the horse running back into the burning barn.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top