Has Anyone Here Ever Actually Triggered the Elimination of Abuses with a Letter or Meeting with Clergy?

[CreatioNova]

…Again, the secular laity has not authority to teach or correct those above them, even if they are right. …
We’ve gotten used to it, because we understand that this is a very different world than the world that we live in where everyone has a right to speech etc.

I’m not sure if this helps.

JR

This post has made me remember something very bad I did . Many moons ago, when I was getting married, my wife wanted to get married in Ireland, in a small church in a small town she knew and had connections with.
It was a fransciscan church. I was told to write to the parish priest as I’d have to get his permission to marry in that church. I did, and got a letter back refusing his permission, and highlighting the huge diocesan churches we could get married in. This defeated the point entirely for my wife to be.

I flipped, and wrote the parish priest one of the nastiest, sarcastic, and rudest letters Ive ever written basically saying I knew all he was after was the fees for the wedding so I’d pay him the darn fees as well as paying the fees to the little Franciscan church… and if he refused that offer he could stick it … I then went on to a tirade of abuse about the catholic church, why people were leaving it in droves with dimwits (I used a much more abusive term) like him in charge, etc etc … I then quoted loads of bits of canon law, which I have no idea now what they were, and were almost certainly utterly wrong and inappropriate trying to prove a point he couldnt stop us getting married whereever the heck we liked

To his credit, he wrote saying we could get married in the church my wife wanted to be married in, and it was a very kind and charitable letter.

I really struggled with authority figures in those days, and anyone connected with the catholic church, and I so dearly loved to point out their faults, failings, and everything else.

Then one day I woke up, and couldnt shave properly coz there was this huge great big log sticking out of my eye

 

[Spiller]

This post has made me remember something very bad I did . Many moons ago, when I was getting married, my wife wanted to get married in Ireland, in a small church in a small town she knew and had connections with.
It was a fransciscan church. I was told to write to the parish priest as I’d have to get his permission to marry in that church. I did, and got a letter back refusing his permission, and highlighting the huge diocesan churches we could get married in. This defeated the point entirely for my wife to be.

I flipped, and wrote the parish priest one of the nastiest, sarcastic, and rudest letters Ive ever written basically saying I knew all he was after was the fees for the wedding so I’d pay him the darn fees as well as paying the fees to the little Franciscan church… and if he refused that offer he could stick it … I then went on to a tirade of abuse about the catholic church, why people were leaving it in droves with dimwits (I used a much more abusive term) like him in charge, etc etc … I then quoted loads of bits of canon law, which I have no idea now what they were, and were almost certainly utterly wrong and inappropriate trying to prove a point he couldnt stop us getting married whereever the heck we liked

To his credit, he wrote saying we could get married in the church my wife wanted to be married in, and it was a very kind and charitable letter.

I really struggled with authority figures in those days, and anyone connected with the catholic church, and I so dearly loved to point out their faults, failings, and everything else.

Then one day I woke up, and couldnt shave properly coz there was this huge great big log sticking out of my eye

That’s a toughie…

That’s why I held onto the letter for an entire week. Each day I would read it, possibly polish some grammer but I never really changed its contents nor did I delete it

After 7 days I finally printed it, read it on last time and then mailed it. I have used this process in the past and there are more than a few letters I have written that have never seen a stamp…

 

[anamchara]

Interesting how few are commenting on their actual experiences with contacting their pastors and/or bishops either verbally or by letter.

I’ll chime in. I have gone to my pastor a few times about different things but it’s always been very postive and conversations. I pour on the charm and they can’t seem to resist it I do have a question for you though. I help serve commuion in our parish and often have the duty of cleaning up afterward but normally the priest is still around. When you saw the host, was the priest around? I am asking because if that happen to me I’d just go over and mention to him. a letter seems so formal to me. But I understand it was important you. Just wondering why you didn’t approach him.

Fr. Hahns Kung is a theologian, but he has his license to teach as a Catholic Theologian revoked. He is still a priest in good standing with the Church. **In fact, the Holy Father just put him in charge of creating a universal ethic for ecumenism in 2005. **But he may not teach as a Catholic theologian. Therefore, he cannot critique or correct . He can lead this other project, because it does not require that he exercise any kind of authority.

This is great news JR. I really like Fr. Kung’s writings. I learned so much from him I knew he lost his license to teach but what a perfect place for him.

 

[Spiller]

I’ll chime in. I have gone to my pastor a few times about different things but it’s always been very postive and conversations. I pour on the charm and they can’t seem to resist it I do have a question for you though. I help serve commuion in our parish and often have the duty of cleaning up afterward but normally the priest is still around. When you saw the host, was the priest around? I am asking because if that happen to me I’d just go over and mention to him. a letter seems so formal to me. But I understand it was important you. Just wondering why you didn’t approach him.

Does that mean the problems were solved?

As I said, the first time was at least 45 mins before a priest would have arrived – I was by myself.

The second time I noticed it during the canon of the Mass – the very end. I didn’t approach mu pastor for the same reason I took a week to send the letter - I wanted it to be well thought out and polished, not mention nice. Not so sure how nice I might possibly have been in talking about it right after it happened.

In any event I didn’t ask for a response, I asked for a sit-down at his convenience…

 

[japhy]

I sent a letter to a priest about a very “casual” Mass he offered for a group I belong to, but he hasn’t said Mass for the group since, I don’t know if it would stop the abuses from occurring again.

I also sent an email to my pastor about visiting priests who pour the Precious Blood from one chalice to another. He said he would take care of it at the proper time. I still see it happening on occasion, though.

 

[anamchara]

Does that mean the problems were solved?

Yes, very nicely. But it wasn’t over anything like what you are bringing forward so it might be unfair for me to even bring that up.

As I said, the first time was at least 45 mins before a priest would have arrived – I was by myself.The second time I noticed it during the canon of the Mass – the very end.

 

[Spiller]

Oh ok, that would be tricky. I guess you wouldn’t have felt comfortable talking to him after Mass? Maybe I’m missing something here(which is very possible), if I saw something that was wrong like what you discribed. I would go to the Father and ask him “excuse me Father? I noticed a host under the altar, I wasn’t sure if you knew that, is that ok?” I would ask with a smile and a not sure demeaner…I try and go for humble most times when speaking with the priest.

It sounds like you have seen this sort of thing before with this priest or you wouldn’t have written up such a formal letter. Am I right?

My pastor was not the celebrant at either Mass. My pastor is a good guy but it’s VERY CLEAR some lay ministers need more/better training and we need to eliminate those things the Church does not allow.

When I found the first host, I was alone in the church. I found the second one during Mass.

 

[Spiller]

I sent a letter to a priest about a very “casual” Mass he offered for a group I belong to, but he hasn’t said Mass for the group since, I don’t know if it would stop the abuses from occurring again.

I also sent an email to my pastor about visiting priests who pour the Precious Blood from one chalice to another. He said he would take care of it at the proper time. I still see it happening on occasion, though.

I don’t know about your letter… I’m not the most soft spoken person and I’m certainly no politician but the structure of your letter is fairly offensive. Not the content per se, the form in which it was written.

That’s a tough thing too because you outlined some very bad things. Yet the tenor of your letter gives the recipient a plausible reason for altogether ignoring it.

I hope you get some action, however.

 

[japhy]

I’m not the most soft spoken person and I’m certainly no politician but the structure of your letter is fairly offensive. Not the content per se, the form in which it was written.

It was the first time I’d done written a letter about liturgical abuse. It was miles from my initial reaction (and ensuing rant, found here and on my blog), but I agree the tone of the letter was not as charitable as it should have been.

 

[anamchara]

My pastor was not the celebrant at either Mass. My pastor is a good guy but it’s VERY CLEAR some lay ministers need more/better training and we need to eliminate those things the Church does not allow.

When I found the first host, I was alone in the church. I found the second one during Mass.

Oh, I’m sorry. This was the EM’s that did this? I am not reading through your posts that well then. Did you tell the EM coordinator? Our coordinator is by the book so you could come to her and tell her and she’d talk to the people involved who make the mistake. I went through her training and it was really good.

 

[benedictgal]

Actually, something this serious needs to go beyond the person who schedules Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion (only the bishop and priest are Eucharistic Ministers because they are the only ones who can confect the Sacrament). This matter needs to be brought up directly to the pastor, since, ultimately, as the chief liturgical steward of his parish, he needs to issue corrective action immediately.

Contrary to what someone else wrote, this is not clericalization in the least. An abuse this serious, especially where the Most Holy Eucharist is concerned, must be dealt with as soon as possible, like yesterday.

This is something that needs to be handled by the pastor, not the middleman (meaning the EMHC coordniator).

 

[Spiller]

Oh, I’m sorry. This was the EM’s that did this? I am not reading through your posts that well then. Did you tell the EM coordinator? Our coordinator is by the book so you could come to her and tell her and she’d talk to the people involved who make the mistake. I went through her training and it was really good.

I have no idea who dropped the chunks nor do I know why they were not immediately retrieved – in either instance of the two chunks I found at two different times.

I DO know that having up to 10 EMsHC surrounding the altar creates an artificially busy and “complicated” (not to mention abusive) environment – one that would be conducive to both the dropping and the failure to retrieve.

I did happen to mention it to the EMHC scheduler. She clearly “gets it” but she has no power to effect change and is terribly frustrated at what takes place. She’s also concerned about parish politics and I am not…

 

[muffinmojo]

Certainly you have a duty to speak up when the Sacred Host is being abused or treated flippantly…especially if it leads to it being dropped, trodden on, etc.

I don’t care what sort of music someone uses, what kind of church style they have, or whatever, they NEED to use patens during Holy Communion. It isn’t a matter of traditional vs modern, it is a matter of reverence and respect. As an altar server, in my relatively short time serving at Mass I have already caught a dropped Host on a paten, and seen the surprisingly large number of particles left on the patens.

If there are extraordinary ministers, they need to be PROPERLY trained, as you say, and a priest should not hesitate to remove someone if he even percieves them to be irreverant or disrespectful. No one has a right to distribute Communion, and those who get comfortable in their positions are more prone to get lax.

 

[anamchara]

I have no idea who dropped the chunks nor do I know why they were not immediately retrieved – in either instance of the two chunks I found at two different times.

I DO know that having up to 10 EMsHC surrounding the altar creates an artificially busy and “complicated” (not to mention abusive) environment – one that would be conducive to both the dropping and the failure to retrieve.

I did happen to mention it to the EMHC scheduler. She clearly “gets it” but she has no power to effect change and is terribly frustrated at what takes place. She’s also concerned about parish politics and I am not…

Oh ok, our coordinator always knows who’s scheduled so she would take care of it but if it didn’t look like it would be taken care of then I would go find the priest. I wouldn’t write a letter though. I would just catch him at some point and tell him. I’m not sure I understand why you wrote such a long letter. What was is in, if you don’t mind me asking? Perhaps I am missing something that I should know.

 

[Spiller]

Oh ok, our coordinator always knows who’s scheduled so she would take care of it but if it didn’t look like it would be taken care of then I would go find the priest. I wouldn’t write a letter though. I would just catch him at some point and tell him. I’m not sure I understand why you wrote such a long letter. What was is in, if you don’t mind me asking? Perhaps I am missing something that I should know.

How would the coordinator “take care of it?” Who knows who dropped the chunks? Who knows why they were not picked-up? That’s not for a “coordinator” to investigate.

The letter was not that long. It thanked him for the good things he does for us; it laid out what I found; I stated my that I did not know the reason why I found what I found on the floor but that I felt poor training and ignoring Church directives played a part in facilitating the problem. I Then listed the abuses in succinct bullet-form with a corresponding end-note. No commentary, just what the GIRM, RS, etc. said on each matter. Letter was 2 pages plus on pages of endnotes.

 

[Spiller]

Certainly you have a duty to speak up when the Sacred Host is being abused or treated flippantly…especially if it leads to it being dropped, trodden on, etc.

I don’t care what sort of music someone uses, what kind of church style they have, or whatever, they NEED to use patens during Holy Communion. It isn’t a matter of traditional vs modern, it is a matter of reverence and respect. As an altar server, in my relatively short time serving at Mass I have already caught a dropped Host on a paten, and seen the surprisingly large number of particles left on the patens.

I think communion patens are fairly worthless EXCEPT for their sign value – they do send a clear message that the hosts are sacred – that they are indeed the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ and that alone is reason enough to use them.

A folded purificator held in one’s palm is far more effective though.

NB: I think this is yet another subtle reason not to overuse the number of EMsHC. Use too many and you need an army of servers with patens or purificators and it gets to be a zoo…

If there are extraordinary ministers, they need to be PROPERLY trained, as you say, and a priest should not hesitate to remove someone if he even percieves them to be irreverant or disrespectful. No one has a right to distribute Communion, and those who get comfortable in their positions are more prone to get lax.

I think there are a sizable number that are clueless. They would be willing to do the right thing if they received explicit training. There are a small handful of the “this is a local custom” types that are irreverent. Thankfully they are already fading away.

 

[anamchara]

How would the coordinator “take care of it?” Who knows who dropped the chunks? Who knows why they were not picked-up? That’s not for a “coordinator” to investigate.

The letter was not that long. It thanked him for the good things he does for us; it laid out what I found; I stated my that I did not know the reason why I found what I found on the floor but that I felt poor training and ignoring Church directives played a part in facilitating the problem. I Then listed the abuses in succinct bullet-form with a corresponding end-note. No commentary, just what the GIRM, RS, etc. said on each matter. Letter was 2 pages plus on pages of endnotes.

She would send an email out and talked to those scheduled for that Mass. She would tell them to not let that happen again. The priest puts trust in her to make sure these things don’t happen. Like I said, I’d to go her frist and I can tell you ours would have it resloved. No doubt she would also let the priest know. We have a very good coordinator. It’s there job to make sure people are trained and are not being sloppy.

I agree, if this has happened couple of times, your trainer is not doing there job correctly.

 

[anamchara]

I Then listed the abuses in succinct bullet-form with a corresponding end-note. No commentary, just what the GIRM, RS, etc. said on each matter. Letter was 2 pages plus on pages of endnotes.

I needed to comment on this, but forgot. I don’t think you needed to get that fancy with quotes from the GIRM, RS…I think it’s better to assume the priest already knows that. That seems like a letter expecting a debate. I guess I don’t understand why you couldn’t have just brought to his attention without all the “education” it seems preemptive to me. Does he not normally listen and blow things off? I could see your point if he was like that.

 

[Spiller]

I needed to comment on this, but forgot. I don’t think you needed to get that fancy with quotes from the GIRM, RS…I think it’s better to assume the priest already knows that. That seems like a letter expecting a debate. I guess I don’t understand why you couldn’t have just brought to his attention without all the “education” it seems preemptive to me. Does he not normally listen and blow things off? I could see your point if he was like that.

Always provide the reference. Commenting on the reference can be problematic, but always provide the reference.

 

[Spiller]

She would send an email out and talked to those scheduled for that Mass. She would tell them to not let that happen again. The priest puts trust in her to make sure these things don’t happen. Like I said, I’d to go her frist and I can tell you ours would have it resloved. No doubt she would also let the priest know. We have a very good coordinator. It’s there job to make sure people are trained and are not being sloppy.

I agree, if this has happened couple of times, your trainer is not doing there job correctly.

LOL!! Alrighty!!