Has Anyone Here Ever Actually Triggered the Elimination of Abuses with a Letter or Meeting with Clergy?

[jmcrae]

Talk about “assumption”(s)! Your’s continue to attack me based on your own. Before making the next one try asking for whatever fact you are missing.

While EMsHC do not fraction the large hosts, they certainly move them from one vessel to another. Oh, you didn’t know this? Before going off half-cocked, maybe you should have asked?

Thankfully EMsHC no longer distribute the hosts from the huge “ciborium” to the individual ciboria used to distribute communion. They do however take hosts (and chunks thereof) from the distribution ciboria to the tabernacle ciboria and vice versa RIGHT in that area. Sometimes they also consolidate the contents of two or more ciboria in that area. Furthermore the LARGE number of EMsHC in the sanctuary surrounding the altar when father fills the distribution ciboria before he himself takes communion makes for a VERY crowded and confused setting. Go ahead and count the delicts/abuses from what I just typed.

Good, you are learning. Now go re-read my initial posting. Note the part where I said I was **serving **Mass.

Grand manner? More sarcastic hyperbole? I stood-up because the great amen was over. Try reading posting #1 very carefully.

I feel sorry for you. You are making nasty and inaccurate comments for no reason. The chunks of hosts had to be in the Church overnight. They both took place at 07:00 Masses and I opened the church and set-up for both Masses. One Saturday morning (the last Mass on the previous day was noon) and on a Sunday (5:00 vigil Mass)

The one on Sunday I found in front of the credence table at about 06:05 - 06:15 – 45-55 minutes before Mass began. A priest would not be present for another 35-45 minutes. No way was I not going to consume it immediately. Yeah, the procedure for the priest is to give me an odd look for not having consumed it myself more than a half-hour before and then consume it himself.

The one on Saturday I found during Mass, just before the great amen.

You are showing a prime example of why people should not assume things. A little information can be a dangerous thing.

Now go ahead. Come-up with some more assumptions so you can attack me again…

So, are you a Sacristan, an EMHC, or an Altar Server?

 

[Spiller]

So, are you a Sacristan, an EMHC, or an Altar Server?

“Serving Mass” is NEVER used to describe the function of an EMHC – at least not around here…

When I found chunk #1 I was setting up for Mass. When I found chunk #2 I was actively serving Mass. Those were the functions. You come up with your own labels.

 

[jmcrae]

“Serving Mass” is NEVER used to describe the function of an EMHC – at least not around here…

Nor around here, which is why I’m getting confused.

When I found chunk #1 I was setting up for Mass. When I found chunk #2 I was actively serving Mass. Those were the functions. You come up with your own labels.

At another point, though, you said that you were standing next to a priest serving Holy Communion when someone dropped a Host, and you consumed it. (It seems like you were acting in the role of EMHC at that point.)

 

[Spiller]

I want to add something else.

Several years ago when EMsHC did fill the distribution ciboria from the huge ciborium an EMHC (now a deacon) dropped two hosts by accident into the potted plant next to the altar – candles now sit where the plant used to. It was an accident and the priest could just have as easily made the same mistake.

The problem is that Mass went on without pause to retrieve the hosts. Now I’m not sure the priest even noticed, but the EMHC certainly did as did some of his brethren circling the altar. I was serving that Mass as well and was far away from the occurrence or else I would have immediately retrieved the hosts.

When communion began I took the potted plant to the credence and inspected it carefully. I found two hosts and I consumed them. Afterwards the EMHC asked if I found the hosts. It’s that sort of mentality that exists here with many.

I’m certain it also helped form how I acted in these last two occurrences.

 

[Spiller]

Nor around here, which is why I’m getting confused.

At another point, though, you said that you were standing next to a priest serving Holy Communion when someone dropped a Host, and you consumed it. (It seems like you were acting in the role of EMHC at that point.)

Please read again. That was an entire different situation. Yes, I was performing the function of an EMHC at that point.

Someone was trying to infer that “serving Mass” might possibly describe the function of an EMHC and that is baseless…

 

[Joysong]

Talk about “assumption”(s)! Your’s continue to attack me based on your own. Before making the next one try asking for whatever fact you are missing.

When I did ask, you simply said “pardon” as though you could not understand why I asked, and then ignored the question. If you are unable to provide answers, why should I ask?

I am quite surprised you viewed my analysis of the whole matter as an attack.

While EMsHC do not fraction the large hosts, they certainly move them from one vessel to another. Oh, you didn’t know this? Before going off half-cocked, maybe you should have asked?

Half-cocked, huh? Nice tone. In fact, EMHC’s in my area do not move them whatsoever. The PRIEST himself moves them to their vessel. As I said, your post was extremely ambiguous, and you left a lot for people to figure out on their own. If I figured it wrong, why are you so upset? Why adopt street language for your own deficiency in stating the facts correctly?

Good, you are learning. Now go re-read my initial posting. Note the part where I said I was serving Mass.

I figured out that perhaps you were an altar server, but when you mentioned the role of EMHC, it caused confusion, which was also noted by jmcrae. Again, poor reporting results in confusion.

Grand manner? More sarcastic hyperbole? I stood-up because the great amen was over. Try reading posting #1 very carefully.

Then why would an altar server embolden himself in the presence of a priest to pick up the host and consume it? That is certainly out of line. Yes, it does appear to be a grand stand action.

The one on Sunday I found in front of the credence table at about 06:05 - 06:15 – 45-55 minutes before Mass began.

Courtesy as a trusted server/sacristan/EMHC whatever you were at that moment, would dictate informing the pastor of that situation and let him handle it.

Now go ahead. Come-up with some more assumptions so you can attack me again…

I repeat my words … don’t be surprised if your pastor is cool toward you. Expect the same from me. You have a short fuse in dialoging.

 

[jmcrae]

Please read again. That was an entire different situation. Yes, I was performing the function of an EMHC at that point.

Someone was trying to infer that “serving Mass” might possibly describe the function of an EMHC and that is baseless…

So, what is your official role in the Church? Or are you just some smart puppy who comes along to do whatever you feel like doing at Mass, without actually being assigned to something by the Pastor?

 

[Spiller]

When I did ask, you simply said “pardon” as though you could not understand why I asked, and then ignored the question. If you are unable to provide answers, why should I ask?

Ask cogent questions so you won’t assume erroneous things as you have.

I am quite surprised you viewed my analysis of the whole matter as an attack.

It appears that you bruised your ego so you resorted to fabricating things which you then attacked.

Half-cocked, huh? Nice tone.

Nothing bad about that term. It’s historic. Go look it up. It applies to you in this case.

In fact, EMHC’s in my area do not move them whatsoever. The PRIEST himself moves them to their vessel. As I said, your post was extremely ambiguous, and you left a lot for people to figure out on their own. If I figured it wrong, why are you so upset? Why adopt street language for your own deficiency in stating the facts correctly?

No. There you go again. My post was not ambiguous. It was you that assumed far too much that muddied the waters. It’s not “street language” by the way.

I figured out that perhaps you were an altar server, but when you mentioned the role of EMHC, it caused confusion, which was also noted by jmcrae. Again, poor reporting results in confusion.

“Figured?” I said I was serving Mass. No need to add any noise.

You asked about EMsHC because you thought you had “caught” me being in the sanctuary when I should not have been. Now you are going from assuming something into telling untruths.

Then why would an altar server embolden himself in the presence of a priest to pick up the host and consume it? That is certainly out of line. Yes, it does appear to be a grand stand action.

It would never be out of line for a Catholic to bend-down, retrieve and consume the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ from the ground.

Courtesy as a trusted server/sacristan/EMHC whatever you were at that moment, would dictate informing the pastor of that situation and let him handle it.

Wrong. But we already covered that.

I repeat my words … don’t be surprised if your pastor is cool toward you. Expect the same from me. You have a short fuse in dialoging.

Your comments mean less and less to me with every post you make. In this one you went from assuming things to fabricating something that is not truthful.

Keep on posting on this thread but I’m certainly not going to read them anymore. You are the sort of person I try to avoid in my life and I will do so on this thread as well.

 

[japhy]

So, what is your official role in the Church? Or are you just some smart puppy who comes along to do whatever you feel like doing at Mass, without actually being assigned to something by the Pastor?

Geez. He has been an EMHC on occasion, and he’s also an altar server. It’s not that difficult.

 

[Spiller]

Geez. He has been an EMHC on occasion, and he’s also an altar server. It’s not that difficult.

I don’t want to get into titles as a eschew them, but I have certainly planned, set-up, MCed, and served Masses and also functioned as an EMHC at Mass.

The poster was trying to twist and fabricate things in order to attack me. There was no ambiguity in my posting.

 

[Spiller]

So, what is your official role in the Church? Or are you just some smart puppy who comes along to do whatever you feel like doing at Mass, without actually being assigned to something by the Pastor?

Do you honestly think I would answer an asinine tone like that? C’mon.

 

[Cat]

I don’t understand how so many of you, other than those who are consecrated religious or clergy, or laity in a paid position in the Church, have so much time to read up on the “rules.”

My children are grown and gone. I get up at around 5, spend an hour or so online catching up on email, ice skating forums, religious forums, etc. It’s a recreation.

Then I get ready for work, drive to work, work 8 hours, drive home. If I don’t have anything going on, I go work out for an hour, come home, shower, get ready for dinner, eat dinner, clean up after dinner.

If I have something going on, I go do it, squeezing dinner in when I can.

If I have free time in the evening, I try to spend it working on my novels and other writing projects. If I’m lazy (which I am tonight because I just returned from an out-of-town trip), I go online and waste time.

I spend as much of my evening time as possible with my husband. We talk, etc.

By 8 P.M., I’m pretty much done in (I’m a morning person energy-wise.) I’m usually in bed and asleep by nine.

I feel like I have a pretty laid-back life compared to what I did when my children were growing up. But I still have very little “reading” time, let alone “study” time.

I’ve recently started eating lunch away from my work associates so that I can spend a little time reading.

But when I do read, I don’t read “rules.” I read the Bible, the Catechism, classic devotional works, bios of saints, Catholic books by popular Catholic authors (e.g., Scott Hahn), the various encyclicals of the Popes, and many many prayer books (my favorites).

I am 51 (yesterday) and I figure that hopefully I have about 20 years left to catch up on all the stuff that I would have read if I had been Catholic for my first 50 years!

I am not about to spend my little bit of reading time reading “rules.” That’s not my job or calling. My job is to become a saint. My vocation is marriage, and my service gift (at this point) is playing piano for Mass and any other place that I am needed.

I am happy to trust the reading and study (and implementation) of the “rules” to those who have been called by God to those positions. Maybe I’m an utter fool to trust men, but I’m a “men” (actually, a woman), and I frankly would rather trust men (and women) who have been officially called by God and the Church to do this work rather than trust myself to read the list of rules and interpret them correctly.

I work in a microbiology lab, and I can tell you some really funny stories about people who looked stuff up on the internet and came to us convinced that they were “infested by worms” or “completely overgrown with yeast” etc. We spent four or more years of college-level study learning to do what we do. Many of us have worked in the lab for 30 years or more. And we STILL get stumped! So when someone walks in who is a self-appointed “expert” on microbiology, it usually just makes us chuckle.

Maybe some of you have so much time to study “rules” because you have been Catholic all your lives and you already read the Bible, CCC, devotionals, classic, encyclicals, etc.–all the stuff that I missed. Well, I hope that you are growing closer to the Lord and becoming more like Him as you pursue your chosen area of interest. I think I’d better work on finishing the list that I quoted above first.

 

[benedictgal]

First of all, if something is worth doing, it is worth doing right. Studying the norms is important. The first and greatest commandment is to love God with all of your heart, soul, mind and body. Loving means worshipping him and following the norms prescribed by the Church. As Cardinal Arinze notes:

1. Harm Done by Non-Observance of Liturgical Norms

Looking at things from a different perspective, we can appreciate negatively the importance of the observance of liturgical norms if we list some of the damages which can be introduced by ignoring these norms.

Liturgical abuses can confuse the congregation and occasion uncertainty, perplexity, scandal, opposition and factionalism. In more severe cases, they can obscure the Catholic faith and prevent the people from sharing fully in the celebration of the mysteries of Christ. To ignore liturgical norms can also reinforce a false understanding of freedom. In ecumenical efforts it introduces problems and sometimes a wrong presentation of the Catholic faith.17

To ignore liturgical norms can in a subtle way introduce secularization and gradual banalization into the liturgy. In this short-sighted vision, a church building may no longer be seen as a sacred place. Do the people then come to church for Mass as to a “meeting” like in a stadium or congress hall? Do they talk in church as if it were not appreciated as a sacred place separated from secular daily events? Does this tendency regard the norms on the use of liturgical vestments as triumphalism? Does it lead to a type of secular leveling down which prefers to say cup instead of chalice, plate instead of paten, dress instead of vestment, and president instead of priest celebrant?

To ignore liturgical norms can gradually introduce such erosions

Denigrating people because they love God ad the Church and care about the integrity of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass shows a lack of understanding of the importance of the Sacred Liturgy. Putting people down because they care about what is the Source and Summit of the Church’s life is to not fully understand the importance of the Mass as it relates to God and His People.

 

[Like]

I don’t understand how so many of you, other than those who are consecrated religious or clergy, or laity in a paid position in the Church, have so much time to read up on the “rules.”

My children are grown and gone. I get up at around 5, spend an hour or so online catching up on email, ice skating forums, religious forums, etc. It’s a recreation.

Then I get ready for work, drive to work, work 8 hours, drive home. If I don’t have anything going on, I go work out for an hour, come home, shower, get ready for dinner, eat dinner, clean up after dinner.

If I have something going on, I go do it, squeezing dinner in when I can.

If I have free time in the evening, I try to spend it working on my novels and other writing projects. If I’m lazy (which I am tonight because I just returned from an out-of-town trip), I go online and waste time.

I spend as much of my evening time as possible with my husband. We talk, etc.

By 8 P.M., I’m pretty much done in (I’m a morning person energy-wise.) I’m usually in bed and asleep by nine.

I feel like I have a pretty laid-back life compared to what I did when my children were growing up. But I still have very little “reading” time, let alone “study” time.

I’ve recently started eating lunch away from my work associates so that I can spend a little time reading.

But when I do read, I don’t read “rules.” I read the Bible, the Catechism, classic devotional works, bios of saints, Catholic books by popular Catholic authors (e.g., Scott Hahn), the various encyclicals of the Popes, and many many prayer books (my favorites).

I am 51 (yesterday) and I figure that hopefully I have about 20 years left to catch up on all the stuff that I would have read if I had been Catholic for my first 50 years!

I am not about to spend my little bit of reading time reading “rules.” That’s not my job or calling. My job is to become a saint. My vocation is marriage, and my service gift (at this point) is playing piano for Mass and any other place that I am needed.

I am happy to trust the reading and study (and implementation) of the “rules” to those who have been called by God to those positions. Maybe I’m an utter fool to trust men, but I’m a “men” (actually, a woman), and I frankly would rather trust men (and women) who have been officially called by God and the Church to do this work rather than trust myself to read the list of rules and interpret them correctly.

I work in a microbiology lab, and I can tell you some really funny stories about people who looked stuff up on the internet and came to us convinced that they were “infested by worms” or “completely overgrown with yeast” etc. We spent four or more years of college-level study learning to do what we do. Many of us have worked in the lab for 30 years or more. And we STILL get stumped! So when someone walks in who is a self-appointed “expert” on microbiology, it usually just makes us chuckle.

Maybe some of you have so much time to study “rules” because you have been Catholic all your lives and you already read the Bible, CCC, devotionals, classic, encyclicals, etc.–all the stuff that I missed. Well, I hope that you are growing closer to the Lord and becoming more like Him as you pursue your chosen area of interest. I think I’d better work on finishing the list that I quoted above first.

It appears you failed to state how many hours you spend a day reading & POSTING on this forum.

 

[Spiller]

I don’t understand how so many of you, other than those who are consecrated religious or clergy, or laity in a paid position in the Church, have so much time to read up on the “rules.”

My children are grown and gone. I get up at around 5, spend an hour or so online catching up on email, ice skating forums, religious forums, etc. It’s a recreation.

Then I get ready for work, drive to work, work 8 hours, drive home. If I don’t have anything going on, I go work out for an hour, come home, shower, get ready for dinner, eat dinner, clean up after dinner.

If I have something going on, I go do it, squeezing dinner in when I can.

If I have free time in the evening, I try to spend it working on my novels and other writing projects. If I’m lazy (which I am tonight because I just returned from an out-of-town trip), I go online and waste time.

I spend as much of my evening time as possible with my husband. We talk, etc.

By 8 P.M., I’m pretty much done in (I’m a morning person energy-wise.) I’m usually in bed and asleep by nine.

I feel like I have a pretty laid-back life compared to what I did when my children were growing up. But I still have very little “reading” time, let alone “study” time.

I’ve recently started eating lunch away from my work associates so that I can spend a little time reading.

But when I do read, I don’t read “rules.” I read the Bible, the Catechism, classic devotional works, bios of saints, Catholic books by popular Catholic authors (e.g., Scott Hahn), the various encyclicals of the Popes, and many many prayer books (my favorites).

I am 51 (yesterday) and I figure that hopefully I have about 20 years left to catch up on all the stuff that I would have read if I had been Catholic for my first 50 years!

I am not about to spend my little bit of reading time reading “rules.” That’s not my job or calling. My job is to become a saint. My vocation is marriage, and my service gift (at this point) is playing piano for Mass and any other place that I am needed.

I am happy to trust the reading and study (and implementation) of the “rules” to those who have been called by God to those positions. Maybe I’m an utter fool to trust men, but I’m a “men” (actually, a woman), and I frankly would rather trust men (and women) who have been officially called by God and the Church to do this work rather than trust myself to read the list of rules and interpret them correctly.

I work in a microbiology lab, and I can tell you some really funny stories about people who looked stuff up on the internet and came to us convinced that they were “infested by worms” or “completely overgrown with yeast” etc. We spent four or more years of college-level study learning to do what we do. Many of us have worked in the lab for 30 years or more. And we STILL get stumped! So when someone walks in who is a self-appointed “expert” on microbiology, it usually just makes us chuckle.

Maybe some of you have so much time to study “rules” because you have been Catholic all your lives and you already read the Bible, CCC, devotionals, classic, encyclicals, etc.–all the stuff that I missed. Well, I hope that you are growing closer to the Lord and becoming more like Him as you pursue your chosen area of interest. I think I’d better work on finishing the list that I quoted above first.

I didn’t read your entire post but what for example if you spent an hour in prayer and study everyday in place of your daily workouts? No, I am not necessarily advocating that but it answers your question.

Then again you consider this a “waste” so I doubt you were looking for a real answer to your question…

 

[Pug]

The noise about this non-issue is unreal.

I don’t think the general confusion about what a random person who finds a random host on the floor is supposed to do is all that surprising (I’m not saying you were a random person). Many, many lay people are taught never to take/grab a host and have a powerful respect for the real presence. No one has taught them what to do in the case of a dropped host (unless they are a trained sacristan, server, etc.). It is unusual to see a host on the floor, so they are unlikely to have encountered the situations you are describing. It is not surprising at all to me that the first reaction would be to inform a deacon or a priest if one were available. Then, the next most likely action would be to ask someone that they judge to be more in the know than themselves what to do, either that or to pick up and carry the host to such a person. Other lay folk may recall the story of that girl (I don’t remember her name) who saw all those hosts spilled out in her parish in a time of war/conflict and snuck in at risk to her life and consumed one via her tongue each day. Just one each day, that was it. I think this story doesn’t really lead your average lay person to casually pick up a fallen host as their first course of action.

 

[Joysong]

It appears that you bruised your ego so you resorted to fabricating things which you then attacked.

That would be an easy out for you to believe … that it was me who “fabricated” things, rather than for you to admit and apologize for not explaining yourself clearly. Do you always hit below the belt in your defense? No wonder your bishop sent his curt reply to you! Examine:

You asked about EMsHC because you thought you had “caught” me being in the sanctuary when I should not have been. Now you are going from assuming something into telling untruths

Not so. In post 57, you alluded to being an EMHC, which caused me to dismiss my original idea that you were an altar server.

I was distributing Holy Communion one time as an EMHC. Next to me also distributing Holy Communion was a priest. He dropped a host. I spied it first on the floor and it was a bit closer to me. I bent down, picked it up and consumed it.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=3698925&postcount=57

Not until later in my post #76 did I address the apparent contradiction and ask for clarification with regard to the ambiguity. Your post was written first and it caused confusion.

Something tells me you won’t acknowledge your error and apologize for this mistake either, will you Spiller?

 

[Spiller]

…Something tells me you won’t acknowledge your error and apologize for this mistake either, will you Spiller?

Something tells me you need to stop judging others…

That aside, I certainly would apologize if I did anything wrong or insulted anyone.

I don’t however expect the assumers/fabricators to apologize based on the tenor of their comments.

It’s ludicrous for ANY sacristan/sexton/server/EMHC/MC/etc. not to know what to do if they found a host on the floor. If they don’t know then they aren’t properly trained – part of my very concern. These two hosts were not found in the nave by untrained faithful. To infer they were is disingenuous at best.

 

[jmcrae]

Do you honestly think I would answer an asinine tone like that? C’mon.

“Puppy,” then?

 

[Spiller]

Like MANY parishes my own systematically ignores many documented instructions for the Mass as set by the Church. If you wanted to get technical there are probably 20-30 violations. From the rather serious (changing words of the readings) to less serious (EMsHC grabbing their own chalice or ciborium off the altar once they have received communion.) It’s nothing new.

It’s very difficult but after a while you just learn to either ignore the abuses or move on – as at least here in the past, real reform seemed like nothing more than an unreal dream.

The problem is the abuses DO take a toll particularly when summed together. They tend to create a confused, less reverent and in our case artificially busy and complex environment.

The Church specifies the Mass in a fairly detailed manner for real reasons. Monkeying-around or ignoring the Church is a recipe for problems.

I have absolutely no doubt that a lack of training and ignoring the Church’s directives created an environment that supported my ultimate finding – two chunks of hosts laying on the sanctuary floor overnight. None whatsoever.

I am very happy I wrote the letter. While I don’t expect much if any action, I did the duty required of any Catholic Christian that experienced what I did.

[NB. There is talk the new bishop is going to crack down on things covered in RS, diocesan-wide. IF that’s the case (the bishop is a good man, I could see it happening), I believe my pastor would comply and I think my letter (along with others) would ultimately be viewed in a favorable light.]

While I don’t think my pastor will be cool/cold in response (he seems too bright, full of faith and nice for such games), I would suggest that any pastor who would be cool/cold in this situation would be doing so based on their own shortcomings.