Has anyone read the Qu 'ran? (A question for Muslims as well)

[Thyme]

Why does the Qu 'ran say that Christians worship Mary?

All we do is ask her to pray for us and call her blessed.

If you ask a friend to pray for you, are you worshipping them? And if you ask God to bless someone and He does, are you worshipping them by calling them blessed?

It really does sound like Muhammed either didn’t understand Christianity or got his information from a sect.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Are any of those doctrines Catholic?

Let me ask you this: is Allah all-merciful and all-just? If so, how does Islam resolve the contradiction that results from these two qualities? Christianity does it with the Cross. What does Islam do?

EDIT: Also, since it is historically certain that Jesus of Nazareth was crucified, how does the Muslim reconcile this fact with what the Qu’ran says?

Why don’t you see for yourself if it refutes Catholic doctrines?

Allah is Merciful, and His Mercy is extreme, present, constant, and permanent. And He is also Just. And there’s no contradiction, because there can’t be real Mercy without Justice, or real Justice without Mercy.

But there is Mercy for everyone in this life, and Mercy for the believers in the next life.

The Muslim believes the Qur’an, which allows that something might have seemed like a crucifixion took place. A lot of Muslims say that someone else was made to look like Jesus, and that person was crucified. I don’t hold to that view in particular my self because I don’t know of any clear proof for it. But it’s easy to believe that something happened, and people thought they crucified him, while in fact, they didn’t.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Yes, Windfish. It is well-documented the Muhammad came into contact with a renegade monk (different polemical sources paint him as being a member of different churches, depending on who was out of favor with the chronicler) by the name of Bahira (in Assyrian sources, his full name is given as Sargus Bahira), from whom he received some kind of rudimentary education in “Christianity”. This, of course, means nothing for Amy’s particular argument, which is what I have a problem with. (The Qur’an has its own set of problems, certainly.)

It’s documented in the biography of Muhammad that Muhammad in his youth met a monk named Bahira. And it’s also documented that this man found something strange about Muhammad and told his uncle that he was special and to take care of him, and that he also observed the seal of the prophethood on Muhammad himself. (A birthmark.)

Do you believe that report?

Nowhere is it stated that the monk, who was simply a stopping point for the merchant caravan Muhammad was traveling with, ever taught Muhammad a thing about Christianity. I think you kind of just want to believe that, because it’s easier to believe a heretic taught Muhammad about Christianity, instead of God revealing the Qur’an. Makes you feel safer in your own beliefs.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Why does the Qu 'ran say that Christians worship Mary?

All we do is ask her to pray for us and call her blessed.

If you ask a friend to pray for you, are you worshipping them? And if you ask God to bless someone and He does, are you worshipping them by calling them blessed?

It really does sound like Muhammed either didn’t understand Christianity or got his information from a sect.

Good questions. If you ask a friend who is dead to pray for you, then yes, that’s considered worship in Islam. Because some Christians do pray to Mary, who is dead, and expect that she has the power to hear them (All-Hearing is an attribute reserved to Allah) and has the power to do anything about their prayers–i.e., to pray for the person or anything else, while she is dead, Muslims do consider all that worship, and say that Christians who do this are worshipping Mary.

 

[algebra]

It’s documented in the biography of Muhammad that Muhammad in his youth met a monk named Bahira. And it’s also documented that this man found something strange about Muhammad and told his uncle that he was special and to take care of him, and that he also observed the seal of the prophethood on Muhammad himself. (A birthmark.)

Do you believe that report?

Nowhere is it stated that the monk, who was simply a stopping point for the merchant caravan Muhammad was traveling with, ever taught Muhammad a thing about Christianity. I think you kind of just want to believe that, because it’s easier to believe a heretic taught Muhammad about Christianity, instead of God revealing the Qur’an. Makes you feel safer in your own beliefs.

LOL, where was it documented?

in the hadiths? a collection, mind you that was collected 200 years after the death of Mohammed.

 

[algebra]

Good questions. If you ask a friend who is dead to pray for you, then yes, that’s considered worship in Islam.

That is actually an opinion of sunni islam.

A sufi will contradict this, and even support it with quranic verses that say “they appear dead to you (dead people), but you do not know”

Suggesting that the dead people can percieve what the living are doing.

Amy is mis-representing islam, she is only presenting her orthodox interpretation that is tinged by the Deobandi movement of south asia.

 

[algebra]

In truth one of the most important hadiths of islam is “intentions define actions”.

If the intention is not to worship Mary, then according to islam, there is no worship.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Okay. I suppose we are approaching it from different angles. My problem is not with the fact that the Qur’an does not present Christian doctrine as we know it*, as I would not expect it to to begin with (what with Muhammad’s knowledge of Christianity being extremely suspect at best). My problem is with Amy’s assertion that it is not important that Muslims deal with objections to the ideas contained therein as representing Christianity. When we say that no Christian in his right mind believes as the Qur’an says we do, Amy’s reply is that it doesn’t matter because who can really say what Christians believe, given all their doctrinal divisions? This would be a good point, except…

The Qur’an doesn’t ever teach Christian doctrine, in order to refute it. I.e., it doesn’t say “Christians believe x, and x is wrong.” Rather, it teaches that specific points are wrong. Saying that a person who believes a thing, or does a thing, is wrong to do it. It’s kind of neat, actually.

*- While it is true that what makes for orthodox Christian doctrine varies according to who you ask, it is likewise true that there are core tenets of Christianity which all of the Apostolic Churches (and a great many churches which do not have apostolic foundations) share, even if we do not necessarily share the same understandings of them (ex: filioque argument, EO/OO division, etc.), such as:

• Belief in the Divinity and Sonship of the only-begotten, Jesus Christ
• Belief in the Holy Trinity
• Belief in the crucifixion of Christ and His glorious resurrection

And the Qur’an does refute these three points. As for the first, 5:72 is a start, denying any divinity to Jesus. As for the Trinity, 4:171 takes care of it by simply saying “Don’t say three.” And as for the crucifixion, 4:157 refutes it, “they didn’t kill thim, nor did they crucify him.” But instead of dying, as 4:158 says, “Allah raised him up.”

4:171 is my favorite, actually. Instead of trying to describe the Trinity at all, or refute it in detail–it simply says “Don’t say three.” Trinity is three, it means three. Instead of arguing the meaning of the Trinity (something Christians still do), it just says to get rid of the “Three” part. If you do, you’re left with the truth.

 

[Sister_Amy]

LOL, where was it documented?

in the hadiths? a collection, mind you that was collected 200 years after the death of Mohammed.

Not even a hadith, actually (which were collected even during his lifetime) but rather in the seerah/biography. Less authentic.

But I’m not the one who brought it up–go fuss with dzheremi if you think it’s not properly documented.

 

[algebra]

4:171 is my favorite, actually. Instead of trying to describe the Trinity at all, or refute it in detail–it simply says “Don’t say three.” Trinity is three, it means three. Instead of arguing the meaning of the Trinity (something Christians still do), it just says to get rid of the “Three” part. If you do, you’re left with the truth.

Since when is Thaluth the same as thalatha?

 

[Sister_Amy]

That is actually an opinion of sunni islam.

A sufi will contradict this, and even support it with quranic verses that say “they appear dead to you (dead people), but you do not know”

Suggesting that the dead people can percieve what the living are doing.

Amy is mis-representing islam, she is only presenting her orthodox interpretation that is tinged by the Deobandi movement of south asia.

He says this today, and tomorrow he’ll tell you I’m only presenting an orthodox interpretation tinged by a “Wahhabi” or “Salafi” movement of Arabia.

I’m presenting the orthodox interpretation, adhered to by the vast, vast majority of Muslims, and I’ve studied with scholars from Pakistan and from Egypt and from Syria and from Saudi Arabia. And surprise! They teach the same stuff.

Worshipping the dead is a pretty condemnable thing in Islam, of which there is plenty of proof. Saint worship, which some extreme groups do, is not part of Islam but is forbidden, and sinful.

 

[Sister_Amy]

since when is thaluth the same as thalatha?

لا تقولوا ثلاثة انتهوا خيرا لكم

 

[algebra]

I’m presenting the orthodox interpretation, adhered to by the vast, vast majority of Muslims, and I’ve studied with scholars from Pakistan and from Egypt and from Syria and from Saudi Arabia. And surprise! They teach the same stuff.

Nation states that all more or less adhere to the same interpretation of islam.

Have you got an opinion from a turk, malian, chechen or a persian for that matter?

you might find more interesting interpretations.

Worshipping the dead is a pretty condemnable thing in Islam, of which there is plenty of proof. Saint worship, which some extreme groups do, is not part of Islam but is forbidden, and sinful.

Its not worship if there is no intention to worship.

Intentions define actions, do you want to see the entire isnad as proof?

 

[algebra]

لا تقولوا ثلاثة انتهوا خيرا لكم

تقولوا ثلاثة انتهوا خيرا لكم

lol

 

[Sister_Amy]

Nation states that all more or less adhere to the same interpretation of islam.

Have you got an opinion from a turk, malian, chechen or a persian for that matter?

you might find more interesting interpretations.

Its not worship if there is no intention to worship.

Intentions define actions, do you want to see the entire isnad as proof?

The intention is worship–praying to a dead person who they think can hear them? The belief (actually, their aqeedah) has been corrupted, and it’s shirk. Go read a book on aqeedah if you want.

 

[Sister_Amy]

تقولوا ثلاثة انتهوا خيرا لكم

lol

Shows you don’t understand Arabic grammar. You can’t just take away the لا without taking the تقولوا out of جزم. And you didn’t. But if you want to make a command, there’s another step, still. So even though you took away the لا, the meaning stays. Joke’s on you.

 

[algebra]

The intention is worship–praying to a dead person who they think can hear them? The belief (actually, their aqeedah) has been corrupted, and it’s shirk. Go read a book on aqeedah if you want.

The intention is to ask a person to make a dua for them.

There is no shirk in that.

Their belief and the sufis too (is that the dead can perceive the living) there is no shirk in any of that.

The hoops you will jump through to support your interpretation of islam.

 

[algebra]

Shows you don’t understand Arabic grammar. You can’t just take away the لا without taking the تقولوا out of جزم. And you didn’t. But if you want to make a command, there’s another step, still. So even though you took away the لا, the meaning stays. Joke’s on you.

But you got it, didnt you? thats all that matters LOL

 

[Sister_Amy]

The intention is to ask a person to make a dua for them.

There is no shirk in that.

Their belief and the sufis too (is that the dead can perceive the living) there is no shirk in any of that.

The hoops you will jump through to support your interpretation of islam.

Yes, there is shirk in that, because the person is dead and can’t hear them. Believing the person can hear them is shirk, and believing the person, who is dead, can make du’a for them is also shirk.

It’s not jumping through hoops, it’s really simple and clear. Your ears must be hurting though, with your fingers stuck in them so hard.

 

[Sister_Amy]

But you got it, didnt you? thats all that matters LOL

I got that you tried to put a new meaning where the text prevented you. Mind that I also included the word انتهوا which I don’t think you know the meaning of (else you’d have deleted it.)

The Qur’an beat you.