Has anyone read the Qu 'ran? (A question for Muslims as well)

[Thyme]

Yes, there is shirk in that, because the person is dead and can’t hear them. Believing the person can hear them is shirk, and believing the person, who is dead, can make du’a for them is also shirk.

So what do you believe happens when we die? We just sit in a grave?

The souls in Heaven are more alive than we are. They are in their glorious forms, and in the place they were created to be. They don’t lose all connection. They can pray to God and worship Him.

Notice that pray doesn’t necessarily mean worship. I could pray to God and ask Him for something, but that isn’t worshipping Him. I can ask a friend to pray for me, which isn’t worship and I can also ask for a Saint or Angel to pray for me, because they certainly aren’t dead and are closer to God than me.

 

[dzheremi]

It’s documented in the biography of Muhammad that Muhammad in his youth met a monk named Bahira. And it’s also documented that this man found something strange about Muhammad and told his uncle that he was special and to take care of him, and that he also observed the seal of the prophethood on Muhammad himself. (A birthmark.)

Do you believe that report?

No…

Nowhere is it stated that the monk, who was simply a stopping point for the merchant caravan Muhammad was traveling with, ever taught Muhammad a thing about Christianity. I think you kind of just want to believe that, because it’s easier to believe a heretic taught Muhammad about Christianity, instead of God revealing the Qur’an. Makes you feel safer in your own beliefs.

No, I believe that because it is what the Syriac sources themselves say. It is no business of mine what you personally want to believe or not believe, but where do you get off telling ME what I should believe or why? You obviously read other sources than I do, and I’m not here to say that yours are without merit, only that they are not the only ones out there worthy of being investigated. I have written here on CAF before about the differences between the Islamic-Arabic retention of the Bahira legend and the Syriac-Christian retention of the same. I personally find the Syriac-Christian telling to be of much more depth and interest (because Bahira does not simply exist as a functionary of the Muhammadean narrative/hagiography in the Syriac version), but that is beside the point. The point that I would rather make is that if we are to believe that Bahira came from among the Assyrians (which his name, “Sargus”, would seem to suggest), then why would we not also look into what his fellow Assyrian/Syriac writers have to say about his encounter with Muhammad? When we want to learn about Islamic history, should we do so to the exclusion of non-Islamic sources? That would be ridiculous. So is your assertion that I only believe the Syriac writers because it suits my personal distaste of Islam.

My shameful arrogance, Sister Amy, is only occasionally outdone by yours. Your recent responses to my posts are a very good example of such instances. Do we have a problem that should be discussed via PM? I do not have a problem with you personally, but I’ll be damned if I’m going to sit here and take your insinuations about my motives with good humor because of past cordial interactions. I believe you are being sincere, albeit of course sincerely wrong. Why can’t you grant me the same courtesy?

 

[algebra]

It’s not jumping through hoops, it’s really simple and clear…

It would be clear and simple if there was a verse in the quran that said "dead people cant hear you or help you.

Since there is no such verse, it isnt clear and simple and you know it.

You know it because there are millions of muslims that pray at durgas even today.

And here you are pompously pronouncing takfir on them, but in the same breath claim to be a talib.

If you are in the precarious position of being a talib, I suggest you complete your knowledge and not just from one school of thought, before you start pronouncing takfir on others.

You really are following way of the neo-salafis.

 

[Sister_Amy]

So what do you believe happens when we die? We just sit in a grave?

The souls in Heaven are more alive than we are. They are in their glorious forms, and in the place they were created to be. They don’t lose all connection. They can pray to God and worship Him.

Notice that pray doesn’t necessarily mean worship. I could pray to God and ask Him for something, but that isn’t worshipping Him. I can ask a friend to pray for me, which isn’t worship and I can also ask for a Saint or Angel to pray for me, because they certainly aren’t dead and are closer to God than me.

I believe that when people die, they live the life of the grave until the Day of Resurrection, when everyone will be resurrected for Judgment, after which they will be entered into either Paradise, or Hellfire.

I believe that praying to God is the very essence of worship, and that all our prayers should be directed to Him, exclusively, because He is the One who hears them, listens to them, and the only One who can answer them.

 

[Sister_Amy]

No…

No, I believe that because it is what the Syriac sources themselves say. It is no business of mine what you personally want to believe or not believe, but where do you get off telling ME what I should believe or why? You obviously read other sources than I do, and I’m not here to say that yours are without merit, only that they are not the only ones out there worthy of being investigated. I have written here on CAF before about the differences between the Islamic-Arabic retention of the Bahira legend and the Syriac-Christian retention of the same. I personally find the Syriac-Christian telling to be of much more depth and interest (because Bahira does not simply exist as a functionary of the Muhammadean narrative/hagiography in the Syriac version), but that is beside the point. The point that I would rather make is that if we are to believe that Bahira came from among the Assyrians (which his name, “Sargus”, would seem to suggest), then why would we not also look into what his fellow Assyrian/Syriac writers have to say about his encounter with Muhammad? When we want to learn about Islamic history, should we do so to the exclusion of non-Islamic sources? That would be ridiculous. So is your assertion that I only believe the Syriac writers because it suits my personal distaste of Islam.

My shameful arrogance, Sister Amy, is only occasionally outdone by yours. Your recent responses to my posts are a very good example of such instances. Do we have a problem that should be discussed via PM? I do not have a problem with you personally, but I’ll be damned if I’m going to sit here and take your insinuations about my motives with good humor because of past cordial interactions. I believe you are being sincere, albeit of course sincerely wrong. Why can’t you grant me the same courtesy?

I don’t have a problem, but if you do, then please feel free to PM me.

 

[Sister_Amy]

If you are in the precarious position of being a talib, I suggest you complete your knowledge and not just from one school of thought, before you start pronouncing takfir on others.

You really are following way of the neo-salafis.

Amusing! Didn’t I just say you were going to accuse me of being Salafi, when before you accused me of being Deobandi?

I didn’t declare takfir on anyone–I said that a specific act is shirk. And you can look that up in any mainstream book on Iman. It’s not something so outrageous.

Moreover, it’s not something to do with a particular “school of thought” if indeed you actually know what a “school of thought is.”

But like I said… beat you to the punch. You’re all set trying to label me as this or that–just admit it, I’m mainstream, and as much as you’d like to promote the fringe and extremist elements of Islam, I’m not buying.

 

[KathleenGee]

Somehow I do not think Muslims are capable of understanding Christianity and always end falling to the lower nature of insult and pride.

 

[Thyme]

Pray means ‘to make an honest petition’ and can also mean ‘to make a devout petition’.

Depending on how you pray, it doesn’t have to be worship. In the olden days, people would sometimes tell someone that they pray to them.

How you pray determines if it is worship or not. When Muslims pray, it is only worship. But Catholics don’t have a set of rules for praying, so can pray without worshipping. If I don’t have time to pray much, I sometimes tell a Saint about something in my life and ask them to pray for me when I am not able to.

Do you believe that Jesus is also waiting in His tomb until the ressurection?

Doesn’t a hadith say that Muhammed met someone called Idris in Heaven?

 

[arabic_catholic]

Pray means ‘to make an honest petition’ and can also mean ‘to make a devout petition’.

Depending on how you pray, it doesn’t have to be worship. In the olden days, people would sometimes tell someone that they pray to them.

How you pray determines if it is worship or not. When Muslims pray, it is only worship. But Catholics don’t have a set of rules for praying, so can pray without worshipping. If I don’t have time to pray much, I sometimes tell a Saint about something in my life and ask them to pray for me when I am not able to.

Do you believe that Jesus is also waiting in His tomb until the ressurection?

Doesn’t a hadith say that Muhammed met someone called Idris in Heaven?

mohammed met john , jesus , moses , abraham , Enoch, Joseph they were there at heaven

 

[Thyme]

mohammed met john , jesus , moses , abraham , Enoch, Joseph they were there at heaven

Thank you

So I’m assuming that the Qu 'ran doesn’t say that people are dead until the ressurection and that the Qu 'ran acknowledges that Saints do know what is going on on Earth?

 

[Bwtby]

If you ask a friend who is dead to pray for you, then yes, that’s considered worship in Islam. Because some Christians do pray to Mary, who is dead, and expect that she has the power to hear them (All-Hearing is an attribute reserved to Allah)…

This makes perfect sense.

But denial of the crucifixion doesn’t.

If you read this with the assumption Muhammad directed the verse to Jews, it coincides with Christianity.

That they rejected Faith; that they uttered against Mary a grave false charge; That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah.;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:- Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-

That they rejected Faith = Jews. They uttered against Mary. In boast (implying they bragged about killing Jesus, the false messiah). But they killed him not, nor crucified him. It was made to appear to the Jews they killed and crucified him. (Because he was to rise again, and he didn’t tell the Jews he was going to, so for all they knew he was killed, crucified and dead.) For surety they killed him not. Allah raised him up. And Jesus did rise again on the third day, and he was ‘raised up unto God’ too…

At the end of Luke:
“Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer and on the third day rise from the dead, and that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be preached in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem. You are witnesses of these things. And behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you; but stay in the city, until you are clothed with power from on high.” Then he led them out as far as Bethany, and lifting up his hands he blessed them. While he blessed them, he parted from them, and was carried up into heaven.

Jesus says in The Quran:
“I am indeed a servant of Allah. He hath given me revelation and made me a prophet; And He hath made me blessed wheresoever I be, and hath enjoined on me Prayer and Charity as long as I live; (He) hath made me kind to my mother, and not overbearing or miserable; So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again).”

Does it not seem like they’re coinciding with each other?

But than again when Jesus foretells his death he says “Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man will be delivered to the chief priests and scribes, and they will condemn him to death, and deliver him to the Gentiles to be mocked and scourged and crucified, and he will be raised on the third day.”

So either 1.) He is speaking in third person or 2.) He is talking of somebody else.

And as for the Trinity… when it says say no to three… okay fine. Jesus was not God. But this verse in the Qur’an again coincides along with The Bible does it not?

Those apostles We endowed with gifts, some above others: To one of them Allah spoke; others He raised to degrees (of honour); to Jesus the son of Mary We gave clear (Signs), and strengthened him with the holy spirit. - 2:253

I say Christians and Muslims both got it wrong. Ha ha.

Maybe I’m reading too much into it, might not even make sense, I know cuz I’m providing arguments for both sides, lol.

 

[arabic_catholic]

Thank you

So I’m assuming that the Qu 'ran doesn’t say that people are dead until the ressurection and that the Qu 'ran acknowledges that Saints do know what is going on on Earth?

Quran says:

And never think of those who have been killed in the cause of Allah as dead. Rather, they are alive with their Lord, receiving provision

3:169

but islamic sunni dogma will say praying and asking dead people is shirk( worshiping more than god) because they are dead and they cant do nothing for us

in fact even asking and praying to mohammed is a shirk because mohamed is dead

so islam does not believe that there are people now in heaven all people most wait until the judgment day where the Resurrection of the body this is what the sunnies belief

but you can see in hadith and quran that there are people with the lord now and mohammed himself said to us that he met the prophets in heaven

i am not sure about the Shiite muslims but i remember in school we called them infidels because they pray and ask their holy dead people to pray for them

 

[Sister_Amy]

Somehow I do not think Muslims are capable of understanding Christianity and always end falling to the lower nature of insult and pride.

I tend to respond in kind.

Saying that Muslims are incapable of understanding Christianity is an interesting excuse. I’m glad you mentioned it because I’ve spent some time thinking about it today. I believe non-Muslims are certainly capable of understanding Islam without believing in it.

But apparently Christians (I don’t think you’re the only one whose made this statement here) don’t accept that people could understand Christianity and still reject it. Why do you suppose that is?

 

[Sister_Amy]

Pray means ‘to make an honest petition’ and can also mean ‘to make a devout petition’.

Depending on how you pray, it doesn’t have to be worship. In the olden days, people would sometimes tell someone that they pray to them.

How you pray determines if it is worship or not. When Muslims pray, it is only worship. But Catholics don’t have a set of rules for praying, so can pray without worshipping. If I don’t have time to pray much, I sometimes tell a Saint about something in my life and ask them to pray for me when I am not able to.

Okay. Is there something wrong with worshiping God? Why would you be able to talk to a saint, but not pray to God?

Do you believe that Jesus is also waiting in His tomb until the ressurection?

No, not waiting in a tomb, because I don’t believe Jesus ever died.

Doesn’t a hadith say that Muhammed met someone called Idris in Heaven?

The story is of his ascension through the heavens, and in each level (of heaven, there are 7) he met someone different. I wrote this down from a lecture, since I don’t have these details handy in a hadith: in the first level was Adam, in the second was both Jesus and John (the Baptist), in the third was Joseph, the fourth was Idris (also known as Enoch), in the fifth was Aaron, the brother of Moses, and in the sixth was Moses, and in the 7th was Abraham.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Quran says:

And never think of those who have been killed in the cause of Allah as dead. Rather, they are alive with their Lord, receiving provision

3:169

but islamic sunni dogma will say praying and asking dead people is shirk( worshiping more than god) because they are dead and they cant do nothing for us

in fact even asking and praying to mohammed is a shirk because mohamed is dead

so islam does not believe that there are people now in heaven all people most wait until the judgment day where the Resurrection of the body this is what the sunnies belief

but you can see in hadith and quran that there are people with the lord now and mohammed himself said to us that he met the prophets in heaven

i am not sure about the Shiite muslims but i remember in school we called them infidels because they pray and ask their holy dead people to pray for them

There is a teaching that those who have been killed in the path of Allah, martyrs, instead of going to the grave will live in Paradise as birds until the Day of Resurrection.

Still not allowed to pray to them, though.

 

[John_Paul_Jones]

There is a teaching that those who have been killed in the path of Allah, martyrs, instead of going to the grave will live in Paradise as birds until the Day of Resurrection.

Still not allowed to pray to them, though.

When shiites pray to allah they are not allowed to have an intermediator?

When allah spoke to muhammed, (allah) needed an angel. But why should allah need an intermediator to speak to muhammed, and a muslim is not allowed to have one to speak to allah?

 

[Thyme]

Okay. Is there something wrong with worshiping God? Why would you be able to talk to a saint, but not pray to God?

Of course not, but there’s nothing wrong with asking someone to pray for you either. I would rather ask someone who has been made perfect in Heaven and is with God to pray for me than a sinner on Earth who has never met Him.

No, not waiting in a tomb, because I don’t believe Jesus ever died.

Lol sorry I forgot.

The story is of his ascension through the heavens, and in each level (of heaven, there are 7) he met someone different. I wrote this down from a lecture, since I don’t have these details handy in a hadith: in the first level was Adam, in the second was both Jesus and John (the Baptist), in the third was Joseph, the fourth was Idris (also known as Enoch), in the fifth was Aaron, the brother of Moses, and in the sixth was Moses, and in the 7th was Abraham.

So does that mean you believe souls aren’t waiting until judgement day to go to Heaven?

 

[algebra]

There is a teaching that those who have been killed in the path of Allah, martyrs, instead of going to the grave will live in Paradise as birds until the Day of Resurrection.

Still not allowed to pray to them, though.

The payers takes on the form of asking them to make a dua for you.

And to clarify that hadith about them being birds in paradise, was specifically to placate a mother whose young son had died. His arms were chopped of during a raid. She came to Mohammed and was weeping and distraught.

Mohammed told her, dont worry, I already see him in jannah and God has given him wings for the arms he lost.

Talk about opportunistic.

It is narrated in Sharhus Sudoor by al-Imam al-Suyuti that Nabi Muhammad (s) said that when you visit the graveyard, you should read Suratul-Ikhlas, Suratut-Takathur and Suratul-Fatiha, and present the reward of the recitations as a gift to the inhabitants of the graves. Nabi Muhammad (s) explains that these souls will then make du’a for you, asking Allah (swt) to forgive you and bless you.

So this then is a command of the Nabi Muhammad (s). We learn from this Hadith that the souls of the departed have the ability to make Du’a for the living, asking Allah (swt) to help the living who are visiting them.

sunnah.org/aqida/cape_town_wahabi/complete_refutation_shaykh_faiik.htm

The point I am trying to make here is that Amys interpretation of islam is not as wide spread as she would like you to believe.

She has probably never travelled to south asia, although I am sure she will one day.

There she will see the plurality of islamic traditions, if she is allowed to travel outside the house by herself.

Of course she will proclaim takfir on all the traditions she sees and disregard all hadiths that contradict her position.

But lets just say the accusations she makes against christians, have not been settled within islam itself.

It is far more heterodox than she would lead you to believe.

 

[Thyme]

Hmm… After reading these posts, it seems that there are too many different Muslim beliefs for anyone to agree on how it is interpreted.

What is Islam?

Is it just a set of requirements, like belief in the Qu 'ran with no official teaching? I want to know the official meaning of Islam, but I think this has been lost.

 

[Sister_Amy]

When shiites pray to allah they are not allowed to have an intermediator?

When allah spoke to muhammed, (allah) needed an angel. But why should allah need an intermediator to speak to muhammed, and a muslim is not allowed to have one to speak to allah?

Allow me to answer you with some passages from the Qur’an.

42:51
It is not given to any human being that Allah should speak to him unless (it be) by Inspiration, or from behind a veil, or (that) He sends a Messenger to reveal what He wills by His Leave. Verily, He is Most High, Most Wise.

Let’s not forget about Moses, who has a special distinction among the Messengers:
4:164
And [We sent] messengers about whom We have related [their stories] to you before and messengers about whom We have not related to you. And Allah spoke to Moses with [direct] speech.

2:186
And when My slaves ask you (O Muhammad SAW) concerning Me, then (answer them), I am indeed near (to them by My Knowledge). I respond to the invocations of the supplicant when he calls on Me (without any mediator or intercessor). So let them obey Me and believe in Me, so that they may be led aright.

Also, one name/description of Allah in the Qur’an is غني, meaning free of all need. It’s not aproppriate to say that Allah “needs” this or that.