Has Ecumenism changed the meaning of EENS?

[Kathryn_Ann]

I’m new to the faith, so I’m grateful for your opinions here.:angel1:

Is it possible to go so far in welcoming dialogue with other faiths that we lose the “No Salvation outside the Church” tradition? Or has that tradition changed, or the way we interpret that teaching?

I realize that the Church recognizes that some people, not having been raised in the Catholic faith, may attain Heaven because they are basically following the consciences that God gave them, etc. and leading good lives. I’m concerned to see that some, not all Catholics, believe that The Church is going overboard in this area of ecumenism.

I haven’t formed an opinion on this yet, as I’m a fairly new:blush: adult convert (since 2004.) Are any of you concerned that there has been a real theological shift in the way that The Church/Vatican, The Holy Father is interacting with leaders (and people of) other faiths?

Occasionally, I will see websites claiming that we should extend a welcoming hand to people of other faiths, but that we no longer are teaching the idea of “No Salvation outside the Church,” and are instead sounding as if we are saying that there is little difference between* any* people of good faith. Is this true? On the other hand, is this a good or bad thing, stressing our similarities rather than our differences?:grouphug:

Not having been raised in the Catholic Faith, I don’t know how others here feel about this. Has there been a huge change since Vatican II in how we address this issue or not? Have teachings changed on how we approach the issue of “No salvation outside the Church?”

I appreciate your wisdom here, and have no personal agenda. I just wonder if the Church is teaching something new, in the opinion of people here who have been Catholics much longer than myself.

Gratefully,
Kathryn Ann:heaven:

 

[thistle]

I’m new to the faith, so I’m grateful for your opinions here.:angel1:

Is it possible to go so far in welcoming dialogue with other faiths that we lose the “No Salvation outside the Church” tradition? Or has that tradition changed, or the way we interpret that teaching?

I realize that the Church recognizes that some people, not having been raised in the Catholic faith, may attain Heaven because they are basically following the consciences that God gave them, etc. and leading good lives. I’m concerned to see that some, not all Catholics, believe that The Church is going overboard in this area of ecumenism.

I haven’t formed an opinion on this yet, as I’m a fairly new:blush: adult convert (since 2004.) Are any of you concerned that there has been a real theological shift in the way that The Church/Vatican, The Holy Father is interacting with leaders (and people of) other faiths?

Occasionally, I will see websites claiming that we should extend a welcoming hand to people of other faiths, but that we no longer are teaching the idea of “No Salvation outside the Church,” and are instead sounding as if we are saying that there is little difference between* any* people of good faith. Is this true? On the other hand, is this a good or bad thing, stressing our similarities rather than our differences?:grouphug:

Not having been raised in the Catholic Faith, I don’t know how others here feel about this. Has there been a huge change since Vatican II in how we address this issue or not? Have teachings changed on how we approach the issue of “No salvation outside the Church?”

I appreciate your wisdom here, and have no personal agenda. I just wonder if the Church is teaching something new, in the opinion of people here who have been Catholics much longer than myself.

Gratefully,
Kathryn Ann:heaven:

Two Church teachings:

• Baptism is NECESSARY for salvation (but does not ensure it. you must die in a state of grace)
• There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church

How can someone be baptised and a Catholic?

• Sacramental Baptism as a Catholic
• Baptism of Blood (non-Catholic dying for the Catholic faith)
• Baptism of desire - Explicit (those who want to know more about Christ and have the desire to get baptised but die before scaramental baptism - e.g.those in RCIA)
• Baptism of Desire - Implicit (those who may (not will) be saved through invincible ignorance meaning those who through no fault of their own do not know Christ, his Gospel and his Church but nevertheless in that ignorance still live a life in accordance with Christ’s teachings)

You may debate who is captured under invincible ignorance but outside the above four forms of baptism there is no salvation.

Not all Catholics are saved but everyone in Heaven is Catholic.

 

[Marian_Devotee]

Hi, Kathryn Ann!

The teaching “Outside the Church There is No Salvation” has been declared infallibly three times: By Innocent III at the Fourth Lateran Council in 1215, by Boniface VIII in his papal bull Unam Sanctam in 1302, and by Eugene IV in the Bull Cantate Domino in 1441. Vatican I has taught that we are not to expound infallibly-declared dogma in an effort to obtain deeper understanding. Here are the decrees of Vatican I; look at Session 3, Chapter 4.

So to answer your question, in a nutshell, the teaching didn’t change.

Welcome home, by the way!

 

[Rence]

I’m new to the faith, so I’m grateful for your opinions here.:angel1:

Is it possible to go so far in welcoming dialogue with other faiths that we lose the “No Salvation outside the Church” tradition? Or has that tradition changed, or the way we interpret that teaching?

I realize that the Church recognizes that some people, not having been raised in the Catholic faith, may attain Heaven because they are basically following the consciences that God gave them, etc. and leading good lives. I’m concerned to see that some, not all Catholics, believe that The Church is going overboard in this area of ecumenism.

I haven’t formed an opinion on this yet, as I’m a fairly new:blush: adult convert (since 2004.) Are any of you concerned that there has been a real theological shift in the way that The Church/Vatican, The Holy Father is interacting with leaders (and people of) other faiths?

Occasionally, I will see websites claiming that we should extend a welcoming hand to people of other faiths, but that we no longer are teaching the idea of “No Salvation outside the Church,” and are instead sounding as if we are saying that there is little difference between* any* people of good faith. Is this true? On the other hand, is this a good or bad thing, stressing our similarities rather than our differences?:grouphug:

Not having been raised in the Catholic Faith, I don’t know how others here feel about this. Has there been a huge change since Vatican II in how we address this issue or not? Have teachings changed on how we approach the issue of “No salvation outside the Church?”

I appreciate your wisdom here, and have no personal agenda. I just wonder if the Church is teaching something new, in the opinion of people here who have been Catholics much longer than myself.

Gratefully,
Kathryn Ann:heaven:

According to the teachings of the Church, it all started from the Catholic Church…therefore, Christian denominations that baptise in the name of the Trinity make them Catholic through their Baptism. They wouldn’t be Christian denominations if it weren’t for their roots in the Catholic Church. Though the Church contains the Fullness of Truth, these denominations that baptise in the name of the Trinity lack the Fullness of Truth, but have parts of it because of their roots in the Catholic Church. This makes Catholics as well as non-Catholics that baptise in the name of the Trinity Catholic by virtue of their Baptism.

So while there is “no salvation outside the Church”, these denominations have their roots in the Church. And don’t forget that the Church says this:

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

And yes, these non-Catholics can be saved as well. No, I am not concerned that the Church teaches this because there are very devout and good people that worship God and try to live as they believe He wants them to. For example, I would hardly believe that all the Jews will be going to Hell just because they’re not Baptised and not Catholic. They’re devout as well as we are. No one knows the state of another’s soul except God. That’s the truth of it.

 

[Maria1993]

Somewhat I was thinking.
God is not bound by this, right?

I mean he is God, he can save whoever he chooses.

 

[Diana_Catherine]

Two Church teachings:

• Baptism is NECESSARY for salvation (but does not ensure it. you must die in a state of grace)
• There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church

How can someone be baptised and a Catholic?

• Sacramental Baptism as a Catholic
• Baptism of Blood (non-Catholic dying for the Catholic faith)
• Baptism of desire - Explicit (those who want to know more about Christ and have the desire to get baptised but die before scaramental baptism - e.g.those in RCIA)
• Baptism of Desire - Implicit (those who may (not will) be saved through invincible ignorance meaning those who through no fault of their own do not know Christ, his Gospel and his Church but nevertheless in that ignorance still live a life in accordance with Christ’s teachings)

You may debate who is captured under invincible ignorance but outside the above four forms of baptism there is no salvation.

Not all Catholics are saved but everyone in Heaven is Catholic.

I think we should never assume someone is saved or will be saved because they say they are Christian, Catholic or protestant. We should try to live out our Catholic faith as best as possible as to bring others to the fullness of truth.

 

[wasserfall]

Somewhat I was thinking.
God is not bound by this, right?

I mean he is God, he can save whoever he chooses.

God can do whatever he wants of course.

That does not, however, mean that we can hope that people outside of the the Church can be saved, because the dogma “No salvation outside of the Church” has been divinely revealed to the Church. It is how God chooses to work.

 

[wasserfall]

“The Most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, also Jews, heretics, and schismatics can ever be partakers of eternal life, but that they are to go into the eternal fire ‘which was prepared for the devil and his angels’ (Mt. 25:41) unless before death they are joined with Her… No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ can be saved unless they abide within the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”
-Pope Eugene IV, ex cathedra, Council of Florence, Cantate Domino (1441 AD)

“The holy universal Church teaches that it is not possible to worship God truly except in Her and asserts that all who are outside of Her will not be saved.”
-Pope Saint Gregory the Great (590-604)

“No man can find salvation except in the Catholic Church. Outside the Catholic Church one can have everything except salvation. One can have honor, one can have sacraments, one can sing alleluia, one can answer amen, one can have faith in the Name of the Father and the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and preach it too, but never can one find salvation except in the Catholic Church.”
-St. Augustine (354-430), Bishop and Doctor of the Church

“There is no entering into salvation outside the Catholic Church, just as in the time of the Flood there was not salvation outside the Ark, which denotes the Church.”
-Saint Thomas Aquinas (1226-1274), the Angelic Doctor

“There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church. Anyone who resists this truth perishes.”
-Saint Louis Marie de Montfort (1673-1716)

“Outside the Church there is no salvation…therefore in the symbol (Apostles Creed) we join together the Church with the remission of sins: 'I believe in the Holy Catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins”…For this reason the Church is compared to the Ark of Noah, because just as during the deluge, everyone perished who was not in the ark, so now those perish who are not in the Church."
-Saint Robert Bellarmine (1542-1621), Bishop and Doctor of the Church

 

[wasserfall]

A sermon on the subject…

audiosancto.org/sermon/20091115-Salvation-is-Only-in-the-Catholic-Church.html

 

[johndoe100]

It’s amazing timing that you brought up this subject today. *Because, this *morning during our 6:00 AM Bible Study I made the statement that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church. *It was in relation to me inviting Mormon and Jehovah Witnesses into my house when they knock on my door. Two of the Bible Study members became so excited that were yelling, “that’s not true”. *

Our Friday morning study is always about the following Sunday’s Gospel. *This Sunday will be (Matthew 28:16-20), and is about baptizing in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Of course, I will wait for the Priest to give his Homily before drawing any conclusions. *But, from my discussions with my visitor they don’t believe in the Trinity.

What do you think about all this? Yelling and everything!

 

[ImmaculataFides]

I’m new to the faith, so I’m grateful for your opinions here.:angel1:

Is it possible to go so far in welcoming dialogue with other faiths that we lose the “No Salvation outside the Church” tradition? Or has that tradition changed, or the way we interpret that teaching?

“Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus” is infallible dogma. It cannot change. Saying that dogmas “evolve” or “change over time” is modernism and is condemned as heresy. There is literally, no salvation outside of the Catholic Church.

I realize that the Church recognizes that some people, not having been raised in the Catholic faith, may attain Heaven because they are basically following the consciences that God gave them, etc. and leading good lives. I’m concerned to see that some, not all Catholics, believe that The Church is going overboard in this area of ecumenism.

Well, the “ecumenism” we see today is actually novelty. Before Vatican II, Catholics prayed for the conversion of schismatics, heretics and apostates. We did not ‘familiarize’ ourselves with them. Catholics weren’t allowed anywhere near protestant churches for obvious reasons, and if protestants gave Catholics a Bible it was to be burned or given to the local priest, because it was a falsified, protestant Bible.

I haven’t formed an opinion on this yet, as I’m a fairly new:blush: adult convert (since 2004.) Are any of you concerned that there has been a real theological shift in the way that The Church/Vatican, The Holy Father is interacting with leaders (and people of) other faiths?

Of course. The biggest group are the traditionalists, including the SSPX. Many of the ‘ecumenical’ actions made by the conciliar Popes (especially Pope John Paul II) would have been unthinkable and condemned by the pre-Conciliar Popes.

Occasionally, I will see websites claiming that we should extend a welcoming hand to people of other faiths, but that we no longer are teaching the idea of “No Salvation outside the Church,” and are instead sounding as if we are saying that there is little difference between* any* people of good faith. Is this true? On the other hand, is this a good or bad thing, stressing our similarities rather than our differences?:grouphug:

Exactly, that is false ecumenism. It’s all about hugging, dancing, having a good time. It’s not about doctrine or the salvation of souls. True ecumenism is for the conversion of heretics, schismatics and apostates to the one true Church outside of which no one is saved.

Not having been raised in the Catholic Faith, I don’t know how others here feel about this. Has there been a huge change since Vatican II in how we address this issue or not? Have teachings changed on how we approach the issue of “No salvation outside the Church?”

I have to giggle at the question “has there been a change since Vatican II?”. Not at you of course, but its just the fact that this issue has caused incredible controversy among traditionalists and modernists in the Church. No, the teaching has never changed. People conveniently ignore it so they can continue hugging, clapping and having a good time.

I appreciate your wisdom here, and have no personal agenda. I just wonder if the Church is teaching something new, in the opinion of people here who have been Catholics much longer than myself.

Gratefully,
Kathryn Ann

Yes, it’s radically different. Don’t learn from people here, go and read the encyclicals of the pre-Conciliar Popes: Leo XIII, Pius IX, St. Pius X, Pius XI, Benedict XV, and Piux XII. Then, compare them with what is done today.

I.F.

 

[thistle]

According to the teachings of the Church, it all started from the Catholic Church…therefore, Christian denominations that baptise in the name of the Trinity make them Catholic through their Baptism. They wouldn’t be Christian denominations if it weren’t for their roots in the Catholic Church. Though the Church contains the Fullness of Truth, these denominations that baptise in the name of the Trinity lack the Fullness of Truth, but have parts of it because of their roots in the Catholic Church. This makes Catholics as well as non-Catholics that baptise in the name of the Trinity Catholic by virtue of their Baptism.

So while there is “no salvation outside the Church”, these denominations have their roots in the Church. And don’t forget that the Church says this:

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

And yes, these non-Catholics can be saved as well. No, I am not concerned that the Church teaches this because there are very devout and good people that worship God and try to live as they believe He wants them to. For example,** I would hardly believe that all the Jews will be going to Hell just because they’re not Baptised and not Catholic. **They’re devout as well as we are. No one knows the state of another’s soul except God. That’s the truth of it.

Sorry but that contradicts the Church teaching. Baptism is NECESSARY for salvation and there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church.
These teachings have the full authority of God behind them.

 

[Kathryn_Ann]

Two Church teachings:

• Baptism is NECESSARY for salvation (but does not ensure it. you must die in a state of grace)
• There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church

How can someone be baptised and a Catholic?

• Sacramental Baptism as a Catholic
• Baptism of Blood (non-Catholic dying for the Catholic faith)
• Baptism of desire - Explicit (those who want to know more about Christ and have the desire to get baptised but die before scaramental baptism - e.g.those in RCIA)
• Baptism of Desire - Implicit (those who may (not will) be saved through invincible ignorance meaning those who through no fault of their own do not know Christ, his Gospel and his Church but nevertheless in that ignorance still live a life in accordance with Christ’s teachings)

You may debate who is captured under invincible ignorance but outside the above four forms of baptism there is no salvation.

Not all Catholics are saved but everyone in Heaven is Catholic.

Thank you very much! That makes very good sense to me. Here is something I just thought of regarding how we are supposed to treat people of differing faiths:

I have seen in the news many beautiful examples of our Holy Father, Pope Benedict XVI, reaching out to many Muslim and Jewish communities and that looks like a fine example to follow. Is it possible to reconcile my wanting all my friends of different faiths to come into the Catholic Church, while respecting their choices? Should I emphasize only our similarities or should I speak to them of “No Salvation outside the Church?” Is the Church showing us a new approach while still upholding the truth?

What I mean by that question is this: Is it possible that by loving people as Christ loves them, that their very salvation** will come** through the love shown them*** through the Church,***rather than our simply declaring them outsiders?

This seems to me what our Holy Father the Pope is doing, embracing all people with the great love of the Church, thereby truly hoping for their salvation through the Church’s most loving Heavenly Father.

This then would not be a new interpretation or a negation of “No Salvation outside of the Church,” but a real way, through love, of embracing all people with the Love our Church was founded upon, thus bringing them into the Ark with our love, hope and prayers. That way, in love, they would not be outside of the Church if we all embrace them in the love of Christ.

It’s as if the Ark of the Church is expanding itself with a revelation of love so profound that those outside of Her are compelled to draw nearer than ever before. Is that a possibility?

I appreciate everyone’s patience with my questions.** I’ve read every one of the replies** and am sorry I still haven’t learned how to multi quote, so thank you so much, everyone, for helping me.

Kathryn Ann:heaven:

 

[Kathryn_Ann]

A sermon on the subject…

audiosancto.org/sermon/20091115-Salvation-is-Only-in-the-Catholic-Church.html

Oh, thank you, wasserfall, for this link! I will listen to that tomorrow.
Blessings,
Kathryn Ann:heaven:

 

[wasserfall]

What I mean by that question is this: Is it possible that by loving people as Christ loves them, that their very salvation** will come** through the love shown them*** through the Church,***rather than our simply declaring them outsiders?

No, this is not possible. Only those persons who are actually members of the Catholic Church can be saved.

You are kind of on the right track though. When people can see the love of Christ through members of the Church, they are attracted to the Church, which can lead to their conversion.

This then would not be a new interpretation or a negation of “No Salvation outside of the Church,”

Yes it would be. No salvation outside of the Church has always been interpreted to mean that actual membership in the Church is necessary for salvation. To understand it otherwise is a new interpretation, and such a new interpretation is not possible.

It is the will of God that all human beings whatsoever are formally received into the Catholic Church.

It’s as if the Ark of the Church is expanding itself with a revelation of love so profound that those outside of Her are compelled to draw nearer than ever before. Is that a possibility?

Yes, but drawing nearer to the ark won’t save anybody. they have to actually be in the ark to have eternal life.

Just as all people who were outside the ark of Noah suffered death in the deluge, so also all people who are outside the Church will suffer eternal death. Even being so close as to touch the exterior of the ark of Noah was not enough to save those outside, and even being so close to the Church will not avail for the salvation of one who remains outside.

 

[Kathryn_Ann]

“Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus” is infallible dogma. It cannot change. Saying that dogmas “evolve” or “change over time” is modernism and is condemned as heresy. There is literally, no salvation outside of the Catholic Church.

Well, the “ecumenism” we see today is actually novelty. Before Vatican II, Catholics prayed for the conversion of schismatics, heretics and apostates. We did not ‘familiarize’ ourselves with them. Catholics weren’t allowed anywhere near protestant churches for obvious reasons, and if protestants gave Catholics a Bible it was to be burned or given to the local priest, because it was a falsified, protestant Bible.

Of course. The biggest group are the traditionalists, including the SSPX. Many of the ‘ecumenical’ actions made by the conciliar Popes (especially Pope John Paul II) would have been unthinkable and condemned by the pre-Conciliar Popes.

Exactly, that is false ecumenism. It’s all about hugging, dancing, having a good time. It’s not about doctrine or the salvation of souls. True ecumenism is for the conversion of heretics, schismatics and apostates to the one true Church outside of which no one is saved.

I have to giggle at the question “has there been a change since Vatican II?”. Not at you of course, but its just the fact that this issue has caused incredible controversy among traditionalists and modernists in the Church. No, the teaching has never changed. People conveniently ignore it so they can continue hugging, clapping and having a good time.

Yes, it’s radically different. Don’t learn from people here, go and read the encyclicals of the pre-Conciliar Popes: Leo XIII, Pius IX, St. Pius X, Pius XI, Benedict XV, and Piux XII. Then, compare them with what is done today.

I.F.

I am very grateful to you, ImmaculataFides, for taking the the time to address all these issues and thank you for your patience with someone new in the faith. I will re-read all your comments above. I do see what you are saying here. I wonder what you might think of the post I just wrote a few moments ago about how our Holy Father Pope Benedict is reaching out to people of different faiths. I do understand your points about “hugging, clapping” etc. What I’m wondering is that it might be truly possible, by extending Christ’s love, to allow people to draw closer to a time when they really will enter into salvation through the love of the Church. So they aren’t outside any longer if we expand the Ark by realizing and extending Christ’s boundless love. I wonder if that is correct?
Blessings,
Kathryn Ann:angel1:

 

[Kathryn_Ann]

Hi, Kathryn Ann!

The teaching “Outside the Church There is No Salvation” has been declared infallibly three times: By Innocent III at the Fourth Lateran Council in 1215, by Boniface VIII in his papal bull Unam Sanctam in 1302, and by Eugene IV in the Bull Cantate Domino in 1441. Vatican I has taught that we are not to expound infallibly-declared dogma in an effort to obtain deeper understanding. Here are the decrees of Vatican I; look at Session 3, Chapter 4.

So to answer your question, in a nutshell, the teaching didn’t change.

Welcome home, by the way!

Thank you, Marian Devotee! I appreciate your answer. I am continuing to read and post a little more on this thread and welcome your opinion. I am going to read these teachings to try to get a better understanding!
Blessings,
Kathryn Ann:heaven:

 

[Kathryn_Ann]

According to the teachings of the Church, it all started from the Catholic Church…therefore, Christian denominations that baptise in the name of the Trinity make them Catholic through their Baptism. They wouldn’t be Christian denominations if it weren’t for their roots in the Catholic Church. Though the Church contains the Fullness of Truth, these denominations that baptise in the name of the Trinity lack the Fullness of Truth, but have parts of it because of their roots in the Catholic Church. This makes Catholics as well as non-Catholics that baptise in the name of the Trinity Catholic by virtue of their Baptism.

So while there is “no salvation outside the Church”, these denominations have their roots in the Church. And don’t forget that the Church says this:

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

And yes, these non-Catholics can be saved as well. No, I am not concerned that the Church teaches this because there are very devout and good people that worship God and try to live as they believe He wants them to. For example, I would hardly believe that all the Jews will be going to Hell just because they’re not Baptised and not Catholic. They’re devout as well as we are. No one knows the state of another’s soul except God. That’s the truth of it.

Thank you, Rence, I really appreciate your taking the time to reply. I believe our Jewish brethren have a special dispensation as beloved children of God. I do pray for all my friends currently outside The Faith, but yes, many good people have God’s law of love and good conscience written on their hearts. I can’t judge, and I’m certainly very new at all this.
Blessings,
Kathryn:heaven:

 

[wasserfall]

What I’m wondering is that it might be truly possible, by extending Christ’s love, to allow people to draw closer to a time when they really will enter into salvation through the love of the Church. So they aren’t outside any longer if we expand the Ark by realizing and extending Christ’s boundless love. I wonder if that is correct?

If they are not baptized into the Catholic Church, then they are outside the Catholic Church, and cannot be saved.

 

[ImmaculataFides]

Thank you very much! That makes very good sense to me.

Glad I could help.

Here is something I just thought of regarding how we are supposed to treat people of differing faiths:

I have seen in the news many beautiful examples of our Holy Father, Pope Benedict XVI, reaching out to many Muslim and Jewish communities and that looks like a fine example to follow. Is it possible to reconcile my wanting all my friends of different faiths to come into the Catholic Church, while respecting their choices? Should I emphasize only our similarities or should I speak to them of “No Salvation outside the Church?” Is the Church showing us a new approach while still upholding the truth?

Emphasizing the similarities waters down the differences, which are incredibly important. Personally, the best way of converting them would be to insist they need to become Catholic, and give them reasons. When they ask, tell them their religion is full of errors and give reasons. Also, pray for them. That is my opinion.

What I mean by that question is this: Is it possible that by loving people as Christ loves them, that their very salvation** will come** through the love shown them*** through the Church,***rather than our simply declaring them outsiders?

They must be part of the Catholic Church in order to be saved, period. None of this “Well they are nice people…” or “They seem to love others”.

This seems to me what our Holy Father the Pope is doing, embracing all people with the great love of the Church, thereby truly hoping for their salvation through the Church’s most loving Heavenly Father.

I would hope that this is not what he is doing, because it’s wrong. Again, you can only be saved by being part of the Catholic Church. That is infallible dogma. That is what Christ and the Apostles taught.

This then would not be a new interpretation or a negation of “No Salvation outside of the Church,” but a real way, through love, of embracing all people with the Love our Church was founded upon, thus bringing them into the Ark with our love, hope and prayers. That way, in love, they would not be outside of the Church if we all embrace them in the love of Christ.

If what you are saying is that we should show love to others with the intention of bringing them into the Catholic Church in order to be saved, then you would be correct. But, I am finding what you are saying difficult to understand. Church dogma and doctrine is very legalistic. It sounds a bit like you are saying that if we embrace them in the love of Christ they will somehow be apart of the Church. That would be heretical and wrong. You must be a member of the Catholic Church.

It’s as if the Ark of the Church is expanding itself with a revelation of love so profound that those outside of Her are compelled to draw nearer than ever before. Is that a possibility?

Again, I’m having trouble understanding what you are saying. It’s very ambiguous. I’ll just say: people that are told that their religion is not that different to the true one; told that they will probably be saved anyway; and told that they don’t have to believe true doctrine; won’t become a Catholic. Why would they? So, showing others love and opening dialogue with them as long as doctrine and truth is not compromised or scandalized, is fine. Conveniently ‘forgetting’ the differences and telling people they don’t have to convert in order to be saved, is error.

I appreciate everyone’s patience with my questions.** I’ve read every one of the replies** and am sorry I still haven’t learned how to multi quote, so thank you so much, everyone, for helping me.

Kathryn Ann:heaven:

No problem.

I.F.