Has Eternal Life?

[japhy]

How, then, can the life you were living prior to leaving Jesus have been eternal? It could not, for it did not last, and eternal means forever.

The “eternal life” Jesus promises us is not this life. If this life were eternal, we wouldn’t physically die. Even Jesus physically died. We’re not living an eternal life now, we have the gift of eternal life.

Jesus told her, “I am the resurrection and the life; whoever believes in me, even if he dies, will live, and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die.” (John 11:25-26)

How’s that for a “hard saying”?

 

[japhy]

Yes, i can see how that can be true. So, i take it you, Japhy, disagree with Petra, who thinks (3) is true, and you think (1) is true?
(1) Eternal life does not begin until after death.

(2) Once a person receives eternal life, he begins living it in the present, and God makes some change in him so that he will never want to walk away.

(3) Eternal life begins at the moment we enter the state of God’s grace and continues after death, unless we fall out of God’s grace.

I suppose what we have to do is define what “eternal life” means. I understand it to mean eternity in Heaven, in my resurrected body. It’s contrasted with “eternal death” or “eternal damnation” which is eternity in Hell, in my resurrected body.

I’m not in Heaven or Hell right now. I might have eternal life, but I’m not currently living an “eternal life” right now. I’m living a temporal life. When I pass from this temporal life into death, I pray that I will pass from death into eternal life.

Perhaps it makes sense to think of eternal life as being “payable on death”, or in some CD bank account that you can only “withdraw” from after you’ve run out of this temporal life.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

I suppose what we have to do is define what “eternal life” means. I understand it to mean eternity in Heaven, in my resurrected body. It’s contrasted with “eternal death” or “eternal damnation” which is eternity in Hell, in my resurrected body.

I’m not in Heaven or Hell right now. I might have eternal life, but I’m not currently living an “eternal life” right now. I’m living a temporal life. When I pass from this temporal life into death, I pray that I will pass from death into eternal life.

Perhaps it makes sense to think of eternal life as being “payable on death”, or in some CD bank account that you can only “withdraw” from after you’ve run out of this temporal life.

Yes, i can tell you must be a programmer who is worth his salt, because every good programmer pays attention to detail and makes all the lines of code fit together for one purpose.

Me, i’m an arithmetic idiot (i could not hack my way out of paper bag) and my mother might have had an ugly son, but not a foolish one! I can see how your definition of eternal life fits the facts of the faith. I cannot see how number (3) can be true, for it seems, as i said, to contradict Christ.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Unless, of course, i’m failing to see something. Can you explain how my reasoning against position number (3) is flawed, Rocky? You appear to have a good grasp of Scripture and might see something that i do not.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Maybe i should ask if there is an official teaching of the Roman Catholic church on when eternal life begins. Does anyone know what the Catechism says?

 

[petra]

Sorry, we keep missing each other’s replies! From your previous reply, i understood you to believe that the word Jesus used also means never ending, forever, without end. Did i misunderstand you?

“I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.”

LOL, that’s okay!

Yes, eternal means never ending.

When we are saved, we receive the life of God. This is essentially what eternal life is: God’s divine life. Eternal life is necessarily eternal because God is eternal and never ending. Whether we partake of that life or not has no bearing on the eternal nature of that life.

When we are justified, we receive the life of God, which is eternal in essence, not as a result of our possession of it. If we tragically separate ourselves from the life of God, which we formerly shared with Him, that life is no less eternal because God is eternal.

Let me know if this is still unclear.

petra

 

[petra]

The “eternal life” Jesus promises us is not this life. If this life were eternal, we wouldn’t physically die. Even Jesus physically died. We’re not living an eternal life now, we have the gift of eternal life.

How’s that for a “hard saying”?

Respectfully, Japhy, the scriptures disagree with you. While eternal life is also something we hope for (Hebrews 10:3), it is also something that we can presently have. Socrates’ original scripture citation says:

“I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.” (John 5:24)

1 John 5:13 also says:

I write these things to you so that you may know that you have eternal life, you who believe in the name of the Son of God” (1 John 5:13)

Eternal life is something that we can presently know we have. As I have described in other posts, the possibility of losing this life in no way contradicts the fact that this life is eternal in essence.

Peace,
petra

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

LOL, that’s okay!

Yes, eternal means never ending.

When we are saved, we receive the life of God. This is essentially what eternal life is: God’s divine life. Eternal life is necessarily eternal because God is eternal and never ending. Whether we partake of that life or not has no bearing on the eternal nature of that life.

When we are justified, we receive the life of God, which eternal in essence, not as a result of our possession of it. If we tragically separate ourselves from the life of God, in which we formerly lived, that life is no less eternal because God is eternal.

Let me know if this is still unclear.

petra

Clear as mud!



I’m somewhat of a visual learner. When someone explains a new concept to me, i try to make a picture in my mind to help me understand it, or ask for an example.

I’m envisioning a ski lift. I don’t know why, as i tried skiing once and hated it, but i’m going with the vision. Lets say:

Eternal life = the ski lift
Heaven = the top of the slope
Skiers holding on to the ski lift = Christians
Skiers letting go of the ski lift = those fallen from grace

Now, would you say those who hold on to the ski lift have eternal life, those who let go of the ski lift do not? Would you also say that even though a person lets go of the ski lift and no longer has eternal life, the ski lift still remains what it is (i.e., eternal life)?

 

[petra]

Maybe i should ask if there is an official teaching of the Roman Catholic church on when eternal life begins. Does anyone know what the Catechism says?

Here are a few:

1274 The Holy Spirit has marked us with the seal of the Lord (“Dominicus character”) “for the day of redemption.” “Baptism indeed is the seal of eternal life.” The faithful Christian who has “kept the seal” until the end, remaining faithful to the demands of his Baptism, will be able to depart this life “marked with the sign of faith,” with his baptismal faith, in expectation of the blessed vision of God - the consummation of faith - and in the hope of resurrection.

1721 God put us in the world to know, to love, and to serve him, and so to come to paradise. Beatitude makes us “partakers of the divine nature” and of eternal life. With beatitude, man enters into the glory of Christ and into the joy of the Trinitarian life.

163 Faith makes us taste in advance the light of the beatific vision, the goal of our journey here below. Then we shall see God “face to face”, “as he is”. So faith is already the beginning of eternal life: When we contemplate the blessings of faith even now, as if gazing at a reflection in a mirror, it is as if we already possessed the wonderful things which our faith assures us we shall one day enjoy.

Peace,
petra

 

[petra]

Clear as mud!



I’m somewhat of a visual learner. When someone explains a new concept to me, i try to make a picture in my mind to help me understand it, or ask for an example.

I’m envisioning a ski lift. I don’t know why, as i tried skiing once and hated it, but i’m going with the vision. Lets say:

Eternal life = the ski lift
Heaven = the top of the slope
Skiers holding on to the ski lift = Christians
Skiers letting go of the ski lift = those fallen from grace

Now, would you say those who hold on to the ski lift have eternal life, those who let go of the ski lift do not? Would you also say that even though a person lets go of the ski lift and no longer has eternal life, the ski lift still remains what it is (i.e., eternal life)?

I appreciate diversity of learning styles (I’m a teacher ) I think your analogy works pretty well. Yes, the ski lift remains what it is, regardless of who hangs on and who doesn’t.

If I could elaborate on this a little further…eternal life is not just a vehicle to heaven. It is God Himself. He is Eternal Life, and we partake in that life when we are united with him in baptism, in reconciliation if we fall, and permanently after we die (if we are “in Him” at the moment of our death.) Like the ski life, God’s supernatural life is eternal and remains so, regardless of who abides and who does not.

petra

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

163 Faith makes us taste in advance the light of the beatific vision, the goal of our journey here below. Then we shall see God “face to face”, “as he is”. So faith is already the beginning of eternal life: When we contemplate the blessings of faith even now, as if gazing at a reflection in a mirror, it is as if we already possessed the wonderful things which our faith assures us we shall one day enjoy.

I take it you would say that the words, “So faith is already the beginning of eternal life” mean that a person who trusts Jesus has eternal life in the here and now.

Also, i’m curious what do you think of my simple ski-lift illustration. Is it something like the truth?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

… If I could elaborate on this a little further: eternal life is not just a vehicle to heaven. It is God Himself. He is Eternal Life, and we partake in that life when we are united with him in baptism, in reconciliation if we fall, and permanently after we die (if we are “in Him” at the moment of our death.) Like the ski life, God’s supernatural life is eternal and remains so, regardless of who abides and who does not.

petra

Yes, as God reminds me:

Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”
(John 14:6)

Jesus is eternal life.

 

[petra]

I take it you would say that the words, “So faith is already the beginning of eternal life” mean that a person who trusts Jesus has eternal life in the here and now.

Yes, I believe that is what is being said. We can presently partake in God’s divine eternal nature.

Also, i’m curious what do you think of my simple ski-lift illustration. Is it something like the truth?

Yes, like you said, the ski life remains as it is–a ski lift–regardless of who hangs on. Similarly, eternal life is that in essence, regardless of who partakes. I think it is an accurate analogy.

 

[petra]

Yes, as God reminds me:

Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”
(John 14:6)

Jesus is eternal life.

Amen!

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

This has been extremely enlightening, Petra and Japhy. Thank you both!

I think i have found the truth. It’s not that i know which of these are true, for certain:

(1) Eternal life does not begin until after death.(2) Once a person receives eternal life, he begins living it in the present, and God makes some change in him so that he will never want to walk away.(3) Eternal life begins at the moment we enter the state of God’s grace and continues after death, unless we fall out of God’s grace.The truth that i have found is that i can see how others can see (1) or (2) or (3) as true. Japhy, you look at eternal life as (1) a possession like money in the bank. After death you hope to cash it in so you will go from rags to riches.

Petra, you look at eternal life as (3) God himself, and those who are in a relationship with Jesus and stick close to him have God (who is eternal life) both now and in the life after life.

Me, before i came here, held position number (2). I agreed with Mother Theresa that once someone sees truth, he cannot unsee it. I could not imagine anyone having become aware of the unbelievable love of God ever wanting to live without it. A person would have to be insane to give it up, or somehow not a Christian in the first place.

Perhaps this idea about what point a person receives eternal life is what St. Augustine called a non-essential of the faith? If someone does not believe the same as you do, i do not think that means the person is damned for his belief.

I wonder if this is the same for believing a person cannot lose his salvation. If a Catholic has that belief, is she eternally condemned?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Amen!

I’ll second that: Amen!

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

Perhaps this idea about what point a person receives eternal life is what St. Augustine called a non-essential of the faith? If someone does not believe the same as you do, i do not think that means the person is damned for his belief.

Of course what is non-essential? Who decides? Individual?

We catholics (and orthodox and many protestant denominations) believe that Baptism is essential for salvation. Some protestants think it’s merely a symbol and is totally unnecessary.

I wonder if this is the same for believing a person cannot lose his salvation. If a Catholic has that belief, is she eternally condemned?

No

 

[guanophore]

Guano:

To which parable are you referring and how does the parable of which you speak make John 5:24 easier to understand?

“I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.”

S4J, Do you think it is possible to lose your salvation after you have attained it? Let’s look again at the parable in Matthew 18:23-35.

What’s going on in this story? A servant who owes a debt he cannot repay? That sounds a lot like us with God.

A king who forgives the debt after the servant falls to his knee and begs for patience? Doesn’t that sound a little like a sinner’s prayer? The slave’s debt is forgiven. It is gone. It does not exist anymore. Jesus does not say, “might be forgiven if” or “will be forgiven” but the slave’s debt is forgiven now, in the present tense. The slave believes he has been discharged from the debt forever. Sounds a lot like many of our Christian brethren who believe in “once saved, always saved”. What happens next?

The slave does not forgive his fellow slave who owed him a debt. Is the first servant still forgiven? Nope.

He now has to pay the full amount. His debt is reinstituted because of a sin he committed after the debt had been discharged; after he had been saved from his debt.
So, how does this parable relate to us in the here and now?

Remember, that this is Jesus himself giving us this parable. He knew that once your sins have been forgiven, you don’t automatically love the Lord so much that you automatically go out and do what is right. He knew that you can stray from the path and lose your salvation. The slave sinned after he had been saved from his debt and there was a big price to pay for it.
Let’s look at Matthew 6:14-15:

Where is the distinction made between the “saved” and the “unsaved”. Where does it say that if you are already saved that the Father will look the other way if you do not forgive others? We have to forgive or we will not be forgiven. Period. There is no distincton.

I think that in applying the science of Biblical interpretation it is unwise to use a vague or ambiguous passage (such as a parable) to interpret a clearer passage, such as a word of instruction, as our blessed Lord and Savior is giving us.

“I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.”
(John 5:24)

This passage is much easier to understand than a parable that illustrates (but does not explain) the same truth.

An example would be the parable of the sower and the seed. After telling the parable to the crowds, he explained what it meant to the Twelve. Parables make you think of questions; instruction gives you answers. Would you agree?

There are a couple problems with this post that I can see. One is, what are you using as your standard of what is “wise” or “unwise” in hermeneutics? Secondly, you claim that a parable is vague, or ambiguous. How did you come up with that? Especially in regard to THIS parable, which DOES come with an explanation from our Lord. I just cannot fathom how, given that Jesus went on to interpret for his bone headed disciples, you could say it is “unwise” to use for instruction, vague, or ambiguous. Thirdly, Jesus used parables for instruction. The truth found in them is of no less value than more direct comments he made. Separating them, and implying that the parables were not instruction is inappropriate.

You can use the little blue arrow next to the posters name to follow the messages backward.

 

[japhy]

Respectfully, Japhy, the scriptures disagree with you. While eternal life is also something we hope for (Hebrews 10:3), it is also something that we can presently have.

I think the Scriptures point to eternal life as an inheritance that we must come in to, in order to actually “have” or “receive” it. Here’s a look through Scripture; this isn’t exhaustive, but contains passages which I believe point to the “inheritance” idea, as well as some which are less certain:

And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. (Dan 12:2) At the resurrection is the realization of everlasting life in our entire bodies (as opposed to just our souls).

"And every one who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or lands, for my name’s sake, will receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life." (Matt 19:29) An inheritance is a promise of a future receipt.

In him you also, who have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and have believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, which is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory. (Eph 1:13-14) Note Paul does not say “sealed with the promise of the Holy Spirit”. He says we are sealed with the Holy Spirit (which we had been promised), and that is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it.

May you be strengthened with all power, according to his glorious might, for all endurance and patience with joy, giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in light. (Col 1:11-12) It’s like the best “junk” mail ever: “You are already qualified to inherit Eternal Life!”

Whatever your task, work heartily, as serving the Lord and not men, knowing that from the Lord you will receive the inheritance as your reward; you are serving the Lord Christ. (Col 3:23-24) We will receive our inheritance.

Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred which redeems them from the transgressions under the first covenant. (Heb 9:15) The eternal inheritance has been promised, but only those who are called will receive it.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! By his great mercy we have been born anew to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and to an inheritance which is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you. (1 Pet 1:3-4) Our promise of eternal life is realized in a heaven.

And a ruler asked him, "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" (Luke 18:18) More inheritance.

And he said to them, "Truly, I say to you, there is no man who has left house or wife or brothers or parents or children, for the sake of the kingdom of God, who will not receive manifold more in this time, and in the age to come eternal life." (Luke 18:29-30) We receive sustinence from God in “this time”, and eternal life “in the age to come” (which I interpret as meaning at the end of time).

"And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." (Matt 25:46) The righteous go into eternal life at the Judgment.

"And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life." For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. (John 3:14-16) The juxtaposition of “eternal life” and “perishing” speaks to the ultimate destiny of our bodies.

"But whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst; the water that I shall give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life." (John 4:14) The “water” of Jesus produces a spring, which wells up to eternal life, as if filling a well which measures the completeness of our sanctification, the result being eternal life.

"Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of man will give to you; for on him has God the Father set his seal. … He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day." (John 6:27, 54) If this is not to contradict with the rest of Scriptures, I think Jesus is speaking of an inheritance acquired by eating his flesh and drinking his blood.

(Continued…)

 

[japhy]

(From previous post)

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me; and I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand." (John 10:27-28) Jesus is again juxtaposing the giving of eternal life (salvation) with perishing (being condemned).

"And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent." (John 17:3) I guess this is the definition of eternal life, eh? Knowing God is something we accomplish when we are face to face with Him; we know the Father through the Son, but we will know God in His Completeness when we see Him.

And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of God; and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. (Acts 13:48) To “ordain” means “to dictate, to decree; to pre-arrange; to establish”. I think this fits in with the “inheritance” economy.

But by your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed. For he will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. (Rom 2:5-8) On the day of judgment, God gives eternal life to the righteous.

But then what return did you get from the things of which you are now ashamed? The end of those things is death. But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the return you get is sanctification and its end, eternal life. (Rom 6:21-22) Upon submitting ourselves to the will of God, we begin the process of sanctification, the end of which is eternal life.

For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption; but he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. (Gal 6:8) Eternal life is the “crop”, a life in the Spirit is the “seed”.

Fight the good fight of the faith; take hold of the eternal life to which you were called when you made the good confession in the presence of many witnesses. (1 Tim 6:12) I think Paul is challenging them to live their lives as though they have already received what was promised to them, or else he’s using emphasis to say “wake up and live like a Christian!”

Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to further the faith of God’s elect and their knowledge of the truth which accords with godliness, in hope of eternal life which God, who never lies, promised ages ago. (Tit 1:2) We are in the hope of eternal life, which is a promise from God.

So that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life. (Tit 3:7) We are heirs to eternal life (our inheritance).

And this is what he has promised us, eternal life. (1 John 2:25) It is a promise to be realized.

Any one who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. (1 John 3:15) This is tricky. I think it means that eternal life is a part of us, so long as we are in Christ. That is, eternal life is due to the dwelling of the Spirit of God in us, and so no one without the Spirit of God dwelling in him (such as an unrepentant murderer) has eternal life within him.

And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He who has the Son has life; he who has not the Son of God has not life. I write this to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life. (1 John 3:11-13) This (which you quoted) is also kind of tricky to reconcile with the previous Scriptures. I think the key is that John says “this life is in his Son”, so eternal life isn’t “had” as a possession is had, it’s “had” in the sense that we abide in it (as it abides in us) when we are in Christ. I’m open to other interpretations, so long as they don’t end up contradicting the previous passages.

But you, beloved, build yourselves up on your most holy faith; pray in the Holy Spirit; keep yourselves in the love of God; wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. (Jude 20-21) I think this speaks towards the inheritance of eternal life as the “final act of mercy”, if you will, of Jesus Christ to us who remain in him.