Has Eternal Life?

[Socrates4Jesus]

If you do agree that repentance is a cause of the good things we do, then we do not need to discuss that matter further. However, i should ask you what you think about faith: Do you think that faith is like or unlike good deeds? That is, do you think faith is

1. 
   *]Like repentance in that it is a cause of the good things you and i do, or
   *]Like good works in that it is caused by your repentance and mine, or
   *]Neither (1) nor (2) but something else instead?
   Which of these three options do you think i should choose to best understand faith?

 

[japhy]

Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness leads you toward repentance? (Romans 2:4)what he is not telling us to do is to stop sinning, because, as you appear to agree, a cause cannot possibly be the same as its effect. So, repentance (which is a change in our attitude) cannot possibly be the same as the change in our behavior.

Hence, St. Paul is not saying (at lease in verse 4) that you and i should change our behavior, because this is not, as we have discovered, what repentance in fact is. Rather, St. Paul is saying, in this verse, that we should change our attitude. Of course, as you pointed out, this is not a one-time or temporary change of mind to which he is calling you and i; it is, like a decision to get married, a life-time, continuous change of attitude.

John the Baptist said to the Pharisees and Sadducees, "Bear fruit that befits repentance" (Matt 3:8). Repentance, then, is that which drives us to change our ways. So yes, it is the change in attitude that brings about the change in behavior.

Paul is saying that the kindness of God is meant to bring us to repentance, which in turn should cause us to abandon our sinfulness (cf. Rom 2:4). He contrasts that with the person who judges others while he himself is sinful (cf. Rom 2:3).

 

[japhy]

If you do agree that repentance is a cause of the good things we do, then we do not need to discuss that matter further. However, i should ask you what you think about faith: Do you think that faith is like or unlike good deeds? That is, do you think faith is

1. 
   *]Like repentance in that it is a cause of the good things you and i do, or
   *]Like good works in that it is caused by your repentance and mine, or
   *]Neither (1) nor (2) but something else instead?
   Which of these three options do you think i should choose to best understand faith?

1. 
   Faith is given by the grace of God. Faith that is not dead produces good works. Repentance requires faith, would you agree?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Faith is given by the grace of God. Faith that is not dead produces good works. Repentance requires faith, would you agree?

Yes, japhy, this seems to be the case. I might go even further to say that repentance and faith are two ways of looking at the same thing, like two sides of the same face.

I used to believe that repentance was optional and faith alone was the only thing i had to think in order to make it to heaven. For St. Paul wrote

But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

(Ephesians 2:4-10)

In this passage i saw God’s grace, received by my faith (or trust in what Christ did for me) as the only two causes of my being saved from hell.

What i did not have in my life, however, were good deeds. Rather than sinning less and less, i was sinning more and more.

Then Protestant teachers pointed me to passages in the Bible like those written by St. James

What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him?

(James 2:14)

and But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.

(James 2:18)

andYou foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless?

(James 2:20)

andAs the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

(James 2:26)

and similar passages written by St. Paul and others. I then had a realization that something was missing in my faith, for i said to myself and others that i was a Christian, yet i continued to live like the devil. My faith, i came to realize, was a said faith and not a genuine one, for there was no evidence of a changed life in my actions.

The missing factor, it seemed to me, was repentance.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him?(James 2:14)As i struggled with this idea that my faith might not be genuine, it was as if St. James and i were having a conversation:

St. James: “Can such a faith save you from hell?” Me: “What faith?” James: "A faith that does not result in a change of actions."Me: "No, for you tell me that only the kind of faith that causes me to change my actions will save me."James: "And why haven’t you changed your actions?"Me: "I suppose it was because i did not see the need to do so, that is, i have not changed my mind and attitude."James: "And what is changing one’s mind and attitude called?"Me: "Repentance?"James: “Yes, repentance.” And it occurred to me that the first thing Jesus said when He began His ministry was, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near.” (Matthew 4:17)

So, yes, japhy, i currently see repentance and faith as being one and the same. I understand that without repentance, i will not have any virtuous actions to show for my faith, and faith (or trust in who Jesus is and what He did for you and me) is a requirement for salvation from damnation.

That is why i often ask others who say they are saved by faith alone, “Can you truly turn to Him (Jesus) without turning from sin?” and “You say Jesus is your Savior and Lord, and i have no doubt you believe Him to be your Savior, but is He really your Lord?” and such things as this.

Yes, repentance and faith are like two sides of a face, and the good things we do are caused by our repentance and faith, like the words a person speaks are caused by the lips and tongue of his face. As our loving Lord tells you and me

The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For out of the overflow of his heart his mouth speaks.(Luke 6:45)Do you see any flaw in this reasoning?

 

[japhy]

Yes, repentance and faith are like two sides of a face, and the good things we do are caused by our repentance and faith, like the words a person speaks are caused by the lips and tongue of his face. As our loving Lord tells you and me

The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For out of the overflow of his heart his mouth speaks.(Luke 6:45)Do you see any flaw in this reasoning?

Sounds about right to me.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Sounds about right to me.

Yes, it sounds correct to me too! Unless someone should show how you and i might be wrong, i think it is safe to accept this as true.

However, i should remind myself of the truth you have helped me affirm, as i have a habit of losing my train of thought:

In order to understand what St. Paul is teaching in Romans, chapter 2, i began by asking what verse 4 means, in which he wrote

Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness leads you toward repentance? You and i confirmed, japhy, that repentance is a cause of the good things we do. We also verified that faith is also a cause of the good things we do, as faith and repentance are essentially two ways of looking at the same thing. You also agreed that a cause is not the same thing as its effect. So repentance and faith are not the same thing as the good works we do.

We also explored just what makes repentance different from good deeds. The answer, you pointed out, is that repentance is essentially thought (that is, a daily decision you and i make to continuously confess our sins and commit ourselves to not committing them again to the best of the ability the Holy Spirit gives us) and good deeds are behavior (that is, the things we say and do that please God). Likewise faith, being part of repentance (as though both were two sides of the same face) is also merely thought and not good deeds.

Another way to look at it is to say that repentance and faith are our motives, but the good things we do are our actions (for motives are what a person thinks and actions are what a person says and does).

I think this is a good summary of what you have helped me to see and think out loud, and a good summation of that on which we both agree thus far.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

I hope you japhy will continue to be patient enough to stick with me, as i am slow to accept new ideas and hope you will continue to answer questions as i ask more and more about things i do not understand. I appreciate your efforts, as well as those of Mike and others, to help me understand.

I trust that you agree that if i am to find out the meaning of Romans, chapter 2, i should not examine only one verse (verse 4). So, if you will allow, i’d like to ask you about the verses preceding it where St. Paul writes
Now we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. So when you, a mere man, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment?
(Romans 2:2-3)

When i think about God being a judge, i picture a judge sitting behind a bench in a court of law, the one accused of a crime, the lawyers for the defense, and the lawyers for the prosecution. I’m speaking of a pre-United States court room where there were no juries.

Now a human judge is at a disadvantage to the Judge of the world (who is Jesus) for a human judge cannot know a person’s motives with certainty. All that a human judge can do is to fairly judge a person’s actions, based on the evidence submitted, and guess at the person’s motives. However, even a human judge must make the best educated guess he can about the motives of the accused, if the one on trial is found guilty, for a person’s motives often determine what the punishment for the crime should be.

For example, compare two people who are on trial for shooting and killing different people. In both trials, lets say, the accused are found guilty of the crime. In one trial, the motive is found to be self defense. In the other trial, however, the motive is found to be premeditated murder. The judge of the former trial should provide an acquittal, or perhaps a lesser punishment than the punishment for the one found guilty in the later trial.

I apologize for being so long winded, and i will get to my question in the next post. I will also get to the point i’m asking you to consider, which is this: God is not at the disadvantage of the human judge (or a human jury) for, as He said of Himself to the Prophet Samuel

The LORD does not look at the things man looks at. Man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart."
(1 Samuel 16:7)
I’m sure you will agree, japhy, that no one knows your motives but you and God, for he alone can read a person’s thoughts. God does not need to hear the lawyers for the prosecution and defense. You and i know this is true for St. John said of our beloved Judge Jesus:
He did not need man’s testimony about man, for he knew what was in a man.
(John 2:25)

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

It seems to me that if a human judge could know, without a doubt, what a person’s motives were, he would, like God, need to examine any further evidence. There would be no need for a jury, for prosecutors or defense attorneys. All he would need to do is read the thoughts of the accused (those of the past as well as the present) and he would have all he needs to make a right judgement.

My question then, japhy, is this:

Since our Righteous Judge Jesus knows exactly what our motives are, do you think it is most just for Him to judge us based on our actions or on our motives?

 

[mikeledes]

Hi Soc! I’ve read your discussion with japhy and there is very little I need to add. I believe repentance is an aspect of faith.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[japhy]

Since our Righteous Judge Jesus knows exactly what our motives are, do you think it is most just for Him to judge us based on our actions or on our motives?

Well, you’re asking me to judge God, whose ways are above my ways and whose thoughts are above my thoughts (cf. Isaiah 55:8-9). I would have to say that God judges both our intentions (motives) and our deeds (actions). When the action exists (that is, when we actually do what we intended to do) God judges it; when the action does not exist (if a circumstance arises that prevents us from doing it) God judges our motive. If you really want to, you can say that God judges our motives only, since the actions are just the results of our motives, and the actions occur only for the benefit of those who cannot read our minds and hearts and know our motives… but St. James thinks you’re mistaken: If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? (James 2:15-16)

Our actions exist so as to actually benefit one another. Jesus does not say "Intend to go therefore and desire to make disciples of all nations, planning on baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" (Matt 28:19), he tells the Apostles to do it. See, a motive will not necessarily produce an action, and that goes for good motives as well as evil motives. (Just imagine if the Israelites, under Moses, had kept their mouths shut and not grumbled against the Lord!) Wasn’t the motive of the rich young man to enter eternal life (cf. Matt 19:16ff)? But when Jesus told him what action was necessary to attain perfection, the man sulked and went away.

I know God will judge my deeds as well as my heart, because Scripture says so. It does not say God will judge Jesus in my stead because I have faith in him.

"Talk no more so very proudly, let not arrogance come from your mouth; for the LORD is a God of knowledge, and by him actions are weighed." (1 Sam 2:3)

The end of the matter; all has been heard. Fear God, and keep his commandments; for this is the whole duty of man. For God will bring every deed into judgment, with every secret thing, whether good or evil. (Eccl 12:13-14)

As great as his mercy, so great is also his reproof; he judges a man according to his deeds. (Sir 16:12)

And the Lord will not delay, neither will he be patient with them, till he crushes the loins of the unmerciful and repays vengeance on the nations; till he takes away the multitude of the insolent, and breaks the scepters of the unrighteous; till he repays the man according to his deeds, and the works of men according to their devices; till he judges the case of his people and makes them rejoice in his mercy. (Sir 35:18-19)

I scattered them among the nations, and they were dispersed through the countries; in accordance with their conduct and their deeds I judged them. (Ezek 36:19)

For he will render to every man according to his works. (Rom 2:6)

And if you invoke as Father him who judges each one impartially according to his deeds, conduct yourselves with fear throughout the time of your exile. (1 Pet 1:17)

And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Also another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, by what they had done. (Rev 20:12)

I cannot ignore the Scriptural evidence for my deeds being judged by God, as well as my intentions. Faith and repentance naturally give way to good deeds.

 

[mikeledes]

According to the Bible, God will judge us according to our deeds. The good deeds that are rewarded by God are those done in a state of grace and that proceed from the love, a fruit of the Holy Spirit. A righteous man/woman is not the sum total of his/her righteous deeds. Rather, the gift of righteousness must precede any righteous deeds that we do. But this gift comes with reponsibilities, obligations that must be fulfilled. If we are a new creation, created to do good works, we must do these works.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[guanophore]

If you do agree that repentance is a cause of the good things we do, then we do not need to discuss that matter further. However, i should ask you what you think about faith: Do you think that faith is like or unlike good deeds? That is, do you think faith is

1. 
   *]Like repentance in that it is a cause of the good things you and i do, or
   *]Like good works in that it is caused by your repentance and mine, or
   *]Neither (1) nor (2) but something else instead?
   Which of these three options do you think i should choose to best understand faith?

1. 
   It is neither, but more connected to (1). Faith is a quality of the human person that allows us to connect to grace. Grace is the “cause” of both repentance and good works.

 

[mikeledes]

As guano has pointed out, grace is the cause of repentance and good works. Grace leads to repentance, and repentance leads to a change in behavior. However, I think Protestants tend to oversimplify the causal relationship between faith/repentance and good works. They argue that genuine faith will produce good works. The Bible, on the other hand, discusses the possibility of a person having genuine faith and not being productive.

2 Peter 1:5-9

**5For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. 8For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins. **

Note that Peter does not say that if anyone does not have these qualities, they do not have genuine faith. Rather, he says in verse 9 that such a person “has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.” A person who has not been genuinely repentant and does not have genuine faith cannot be “cleansed from their past sins.”

God gives us the gift of faith, the grace of justification and the Holy Spirit. In other words, all that is needed to be righteous and to live righteously. But he will hold us accountable on how we use these gifts:

1 Peter 1:17

17If you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay on earth;

If a person has been unproductive, his/her afterlife does not look to good.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

You three have given me much to think about, and think about it i will, and let you know when i have more questions.

Thanks to the three of you for your patience and helpful responses!

 

[mikeledes]

You three have given me much to think about, and think about it i will, and let you know when i have more questions.

Thanks to the three of you for your patience and helpful responses!

You’re welcome!

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Well, you’re asking me to judge God, whose ways are above my ways and whose thoughts are above my thoughts (cf. Isaiah 55:8-9). I would have to say that God judges both our intentions (motives) and our deeds (actions). …

Actually, i’m not asking you to judge God, rather, i’m asking you how God judges us.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

According to the Bible, God will judge us according to our deeds. The good deeds that are rewarded by God are those done in a state of grace and that proceed from the love, a fruit of the Holy Spirit. A righteous man/woman is not the sum total of his/her righteous deeds. Rather, the gift of righteousness must precede any righteous deeds that we do. But this gift comes with reponsibilities, obligations that must be fulfilled. If we are a new creation, created to do good works, we must do these works.

God Bless,
Michael

Yes, Michael, you make a good point. Our motives for doing good are not always repentance and faith. Many times love is our motive. I believe St. Paul is pointing to this in his words

Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness leads you toward repentance? (Romans 2:4)It is God’s undeserved kindness (that is, His grace) that leads you and me to repentance. I have found that i can only love to the degree that i am loved, and God’s love gives me all the reason i need to repent. As my friend St. John tells me:

We love because he first loved us.
(1 John 4:19)
and
This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.
(1 John 4:10)
and
This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome, 4for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith.
(1 John 5:3-4)
And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love.
(2 John 1:6)

Indeed, Jesus Himself said:
“If you love me, you will obey what I command. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.”
(John 14:15-17)
Yes, i agree love, as well as repentance and faith, are the thoughts that motivate us to say and do good things out of response for the phenomenal, undeserved love God gives you and me.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

According to the Bible, God will judge us according to our deeds. …

I would like to explore, Michael (and i hope Guano and japhy come with us on this hike) whether God judges us for our deeds, or for our motives, or both, or neither. More importantly, i want to know how we can know one of these four possibilities is the truth. This will, in turn, help me better understand Romans 2, which is my goal at the moment.

To begin this exploration, i’d like to ask: Do you think the good things a person does are judged by God as good because (1) the acts themselves are virtuous? or (2) the reasons for doing those acts are virtuous? or (3) both? or (4) neither?

To help speed us on down this path (for i understand that not everyone likes to stop and enjoy the scenery of a dialog as much as i) i will use an example:

Two men are praying silently to God after mass at the same time in the same church. One man prays for mercy. Another man prays in gratitude, thanking God for his many blessings. Do you think both men are doing what is good, or just the former man, or just the later man, or neither man is doing what is good?

 

[JoeyWarren]

At first look, I would give “Both” as an answer to both questions.